The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

The Veteran

Serious question: if you had a blank piece of paper so to speak; what would you propose be done differently at immigration control in Dublin?

Be rational and logical - don’t just say “I wouldn’t have it”.

Doltanian

The Veteran wrote: »

Serious question: if you had a blank piece of paper so to speak; what would you propose be done differently at immigration control in Dublin?

Be rational and logical - don’t just say “I wouldn’t have it”.

I would introduce a special dedicated queue for Irish Passport holders only, why should we be treated the same as EU nationals, I would give more priority to Irish and UK passport holders and EU and non-EU can queue up and wait.

G_R

Doltanian wrote: »

I would introduce a special dedicated queue for Irish Passport holders only, why should we be treated the same as EU nationals, I would give more priority to Irish and UK passport holders and EU and non-EU can queue up and wait.

Wow

The Veteran

Doltanian wrote: »

I would introduce a special dedicated queue for Irish Passport holders only, why should we be treated the same as EU nationals, I would give more priority to Irish and UK passport holders and EU and non-EU can queue up and wait.

Not possible based on agreed protocols for EU airports and EU Free Movement rules.

Doltanian

The Veteran wrote: »

Not possible based on agreed protocols for EU airports and EU Free Movement rules.

The EU could be told go to hell, we are an Independent Country and will do what we like.

Pat Dunne

Doltanian wrote: »

The EU could be told go to hell, we are an Independent Country and will do what we like.

Whatever you're on man, I'll have a Pint of it! :pac::D

ohnonotgmail

The Veteran wrote: »

Not possible based on agreed protocols for EU airports and EU Free Movement rules.

how about no passport comtrols at all for flights from the UK?

Doltanian

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Whatever you're on man, I'll have a Pint of it! :pac::D

Pat Dunne

Doltanian wrote: »

Shame on you, a decent patriot like yourself shouldn't be drinking that foreign muck!

The Veteran

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how about no passport comtrols at all for flights from the UK?

Not everyone on such flights is entitled to passport free travel plus there are mixed flows of passengers making it practically impossible. If others (the airport and airlines) wished to bring all UK originating flights to a single Pier then some changes might be possible but not in the same way that the UK does given the requirements on non nationals on such flights.

embraer170

The Veteran wrote: »

Not everyone on such flights is entitled to passport free travel plus there are mixed flows of passengers making it practically impossible. If others (the airport and airlines) wished to bring all UK originating flights to a single Pier then some changes might be possible but not in the same way that the UK does given the requirements on non nationals on such flights.

Maybe if Dublin airport managed to build a pier with separate streams of arriving passengers like plenty of other airports do.

At worst, you could also bus arriving passengers.

Some some effort could also be made by those in power to change the applicable regulations in Ireland to something more practical and reflective of the intention of the CTA.

embraer170

The Veteran wrote: »

Serious question: if you had a blank piece of paper so to speak; what would you propose be done differently at immigration control in Dublin?

Be rational and logical - don’t just say “I wouldn’t have it”.

Going a bit beyond the airport itself:

1) Piers that allow for a separate stream of UK arrivals (you would have a UK/ROI stream and one for everyone else). It is a shame this was missed for Pier D and T2. Some airports such as Munich and Vienna even manage 3 arrival streams: 1) Schengen + OSS clean (usually through the departures level) 2) Non-Schengen but OSS clean (Ireland, UK, Canada, Bulgaria, Romania, etc.) 3) everyone else.

2) Launch a task force with the airport, the airlines, the immigration service and other stakeholders to see how a more risk based approach could be taken to domestic + CTA arriving air passengers. This could go in the direction of amendments to the applicable regulations. There is already a striking difference between road arrivals being subject to zero scrutiny (except for a spot checks) and flight arrivals at the major Irish airports being subject to 100% control. I have also not been checked on a recent arrival from the UK at an Irish regional airport. The implementation of EU PNR should provide a further argument that now is a good time for a risk based approach.

3) Depending on the implications of Brexit, I would argue a risk based approach built on EU PNR could later be extended to Schengen arrivals. I understand you will tell me about air passengers arriving on fake documents. Without having any data to back it up, I would argue stretched public resources are probably better used fighting other problems. If you catch a few daily air passengers on fake documents, I can only imagine how many illegal road arrivals there are who never get caught.

The Veteran

Embrear, there are ways of doing things of different approaches were tried but it involves moving checks around rather than eliminating them. Technology can\could be used but the restrictions on PNR are that it is only as strong as the data inputted (garbage in etc) and whether that data is verified somehow. PNR aim CTA routes is or will be unreliable as the passengers in a lot of cases don’t need a passport as it is. There are technologies that could be used involving the pre registration of passengers supported by biometrics.

Dublin Airport doesn’t have the scope to have separate streams especially both Piers in Terminal 1.

Agree that domestics should r come anywhere near us

Stephen Strange

A new Immigration Hall, fresh start. One that is designed to be easily expandable.

Secondly, an airside transit area for T1, as exists in T2.

The Veteran

Stephen Strange wrote: »

A new Immigration Hall, fresh start. One that is designed to be easily expandable.

Secondly, an airside transit area for T1, as exists in T2.

Stephen

100% agree with you.

trellheim

Serious question: if you had a blank piece of paper so to speak; what would you propose be done differently at immigration control in Dublin?

Be rational and logical - don’t just say “I wouldn’t have it”.

I did have a long post written but weariness - and I've been through T1 tonight - got me and I decided not to put it in here. You know where I am coming from.

Short version : staff the thing properly - if those are the checks you think need to happen, then understand its the gateway to Ireland . This does not mean you have to compromise with what you do. I find it difficult to accept that some of these factors are not in your control.

Signage !!! Its terrible , awful, atrocious and lacking. A simple thing, easily fixed.

The Veteran

The immigration controls that are there are properly staffed. In fact there are more staff than desks in T1 right now.

The signage is “clear enough” provided passengers want see it and read it.

In T2 there really are no excuses. The last stats Insaw showed an average queueing time of a minute for an EU passenger in T2 - that is borderline ridiculous.

Pier 1 (the main T1 Control) has an average wait time of below five minutes even allowing for the reduced number of desks at the moment.

Staffing levels are not the issue, they really are not. It has to be understood that to fill a position on a 24/7 basis which is what it would have to be required 5 staff and all considerations of effective staffing levels have to factor in the actual demand, the level of queueing that is normal and also the costs of providing additional staffing.

When the Pier 1 works are finished the capacity I understand it will have is about 50 to 60% above the current peak hour.

T2 is the only finished area in the airport at present and it flows.

There are more desks open across the airport now than ever before on a consistent basis.

embraer170

The Veteran wrote: »

Embrear, there are ways of doing things of different approaches were tried but it involves moving checks around rather than eliminating them. Technology can\could be used but the restrictions on PNR are that it is only as strong as the data inputted (garbage in etc) and whether that data is verified somehow. PNR aim CTA routes is or will be unreliable as the passengers in a lot of cases don’t need a passport as it is. There are technologies that could be used involving the pre registration of passengers supported by biometrics.

Dublin Airport doesn’t have the scope to have separate streams especially both Piers in Terminal 1.

Agree that domestics should r come anywhere near us

With some innovative thinking and flexibility from the decision makers, Dublin airport could have a two stream arrival system with minimal infrastructural investment (no rebuilding entire piers):
- Use the current arrival corridors + transfer facilities for all all non CTA passengers.
- Make CTA arriving passengers enter the departures lounge and build separate exits from there to the baggage hall (this would then also be used for passengers to return landslide if they decide not to fly). This exit checks from airside to the baggage hall could be based on boarding pass checks + reduced passports checks if there are doubts about the passenger's identity.

I have no doubt that this would require some innovative thinking from the airport and immigration service, and changes to the applicable national regulation. Nevertheless, there is no legitimate reason for Ireland not to recognise CTA arrivals as clean.

Countless Schengen airports use the departures level as an arrivals corridor for Schengen/One Stop Security clean passenger. While we cannot do the Schengen part of it, we could at least facilitate CTA passengers. The innovative element here would be the document checking on exit from departures (and I guess how to differentiate between a CTA arrival and a passenger deciding they do not want to travel).

The airlines would be benefit from selling easier connections for CTA to elsewhere passengers, the airport would benefit from more footfall in the airport food & restaurants from arriving passengers (see how Brussels does this in Pier A), and the immigration may be able to better target resources from (from what was posted here there are apparently problems with Schengen arrivals).

The Veteran

embraer170 wrote: »

With some innovative thinking and flexibility from the decision makers, Dublin airport could have a two stream arrival system with minimal infrastructural investment (no rebuilding entire piers):
- Use the current arrival corridors + transfer facilities for all all non CTA passengers.
- Make CTA arriving passengers enter the departures lounge and build separate exits from there to the baggage hall (this would then also be used for passengers to return landslide if they decide not to fly). This exit checks from airside to the baggage hall could be based on boarding pass checks + reduced passports checks if there are doubts about the passenger's identity.

I have no doubt that this would require some innovative thinking from the airport and immigration service, and changes to the applicable national regulation. Nevertheless, there is no legitimate reason for Ireland not to recognise CTA arrivals as clean.

Countless Schengen airports use the departures level as an arrivals corridor for Schengen/One Stop Security clean passenger. While we cannot do the Schengen part of it, we could at least facilitate CTA passengers. The innovative element here would be the document checking on exit from departures (and I guess how to differentiate between a CTA arrival and a passenger deciding they do not want to travel).

The airlines would be benefit from selling easier connections for CTA to elsewhere passengers, the airport would benefit from more footfall in the airport food & restaurants from arriving passengers (see how Brussels does this in Pier A), and the immigration may be able to better target resources from (from what was posted here there are apparently problems with Schengen arrivals).

CTA arrivals are not clean!

Also, UK needs us to control those going to the UK. Having lots of folks in a shared departures lounge negates that control (unless controlled into it as present)

Implementing exit controls as suggested would be a massive undertaking physically and in resource terms.

Also, creating the node option suggested for routing CTA\non CTA woudl require very real investment in infrastructure.

Tenger

trellheim wrote: »

I did have a long post written but weariness - and I've been through T1 tonight - got me and I decided not to put it in here. You know where I am coming from.

Signage !!! Its terrible , awful, atrocious and lacking. A simple thing, easily fixed.

I have to agree re signage. I’ve always thought the Dublin signage is unclear. The use of multiple colors for the writing seems unnecessary and cluttered.
The physical size of many signs could be enlarged.
The giant gate numbers in each pier are useful. I think the size of departure gate info screens needs to be larger.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

The Veteran

I don’t want to get too technical, Fred, but don’t focus on visas - focus on non-nationals. All non-nationals have to be assessed and in T1 it could mean they will be refused permission to proceed as they are effectively entering the State fron the Immigration services point of view.

Going back to Visas; there are so me nationalities that need visas to enter and within that some who need visas to transit. So for example, a Chinese person needs a visa to enter but not transit; a Pakistani national needs a visa for entry and transit. An American doesn’t need a visa at all. All however need a permission from an immigration officer to do what they are doing.

All of this is before you consider that the Transfer facilities close in the afternoon. At that point everyone becomes a landside transit.

munchkin_utd

The Veteran wrote: »

<snip>
All of this is before you consider that the Transfer facilities close in the afternoon. At that point everyone becomes a landside transit.

are you saying that they have no choice but to exit arrivals and then round to departures and do security again?

How does that work with lads on transit visas who are not permitted to enter Ireland ? Are they just let in to Ireland regardless and trusted that they leave again ?

The Veteran

munchkin_utd wrote: »

are you saying that they have no choice but to exit arrivals and then round to departures and do security again?

How does that work with lads on transit visas who are not permitted to enter Ireland ? Are they just let in to Ireland regardless and trusted that they leave again ?

Basically yes; but even when Transfers in T1 and T2 are open passengers redo security. T1 always; T2 when certain flights are involved. That’s not unusual; the UK insists on everyone doing security for each flight.

Dublin isn’t set up for Transfers in the same way as Heathrow; Schipol; CDG etc etc. When the word Transfers is used in DUB it’s taken by most to mean what happens in T2 but there are hundreds more everyday who do what is called ‘self connect’.

On the question of someone with a transit visa, if they have managed to get that visa then checks have already been carried out on them; they’re not the ones to worry about.

LiamaDelta

The Veteran wrote: »

Dublin isn’t set up for Transfers in the same way as Heathrow; Schipol; CDG etc etc. When the word Transfers is used in DUB it’s taken by most to mean what happens in T2 but there are hundreds more everyday who do what is called ‘self connect’.

So is it possible that someone 'self-connecting', arriving into T1 could be refused entry to get to their second flight?

The Veteran

LiamaDelta wrote: »

So is it possible that someone 'self-connecting', arriving into T1 could be refused entry to get to their second flight?

It’s possible anyone (who is a non national) arriving into either Terminal could be refused and therefore not proceed. Happens routinely.

LiamaDelta

The Veteran wrote:

It’s possible anyone (who is a non national) arriving into either Terminal could be refused and therefore not proceed. Happens routinely.

I understand that, but if arriving into T2 with hand luggage only and self connecting one could proceed to departures (I've never done it but I'm assuming there must be a check somewhere?), whereas with T1 you'd have to clear immigration and hence could be refused?

The Veteran

There are immigration desks in the T2 Transfer corridor and passengers are checked.

The self connecting piece does not drive whether you can use the Transfers areas in T1/T2; the boarding card scan determines who can and can’t use the facilities. I don’t want to explain the detail here but to travel onward through Transfers the passenger must be in possession of their onward boarding card and it must be a “qualifying one”.

LiamaDelta

The Veteran wrote: »

There are immigration desks in the T2 Transfer corridor and passengers are checked.

The self connecting piece does not drive whether you can use the Transfers areas in T1/T2; the boarding card scan determines who can and can’t use the facilities. I don’t want to explain the detail here but to travel onward through Transfers the passenger must be in possession of their onward boarding card and it must be a “qualifying one”.

Thanks I pretty much know what you mean!

trellheim

The signage issues rears its head again

If you descend from the 100 gates escalators inbound you are faced with a corridor that looks inviting . Instead you are expected to turn right, right, right, left and into a badly set up set of tapes and a gum chewing redshirt whose job is to rest against a wall.

I was 5th off the plane and watched the 4 ahead of me ( for once it was quiet ) who turned out to be people who didnt know the area , try and walk straight ahead in said corridor.

Of course you cant do that so I had to do some directing amid the usual rolleyes .

This comes back to what i'd said - it doesn't hurt to put up signs. If you say "not my job" I will be more than usually annoyed at what you think the service you provide is.