Future Luas expansion in GDA strategy 2016-2035

AngryLips

Peregrine wrote: »

The Lucan line had a preferred route. Went through a good bit of planning and public consultation.

I really hope they don't try another clean slate approach to coming up with new lines and just find some way to make this proposal work. They could divert it either down Patrick Street and across to the south side of Stephen's Green or maybe down George's Street and then west across South King Street to rejoin the existing BXD or onward to Baggot Street.

Does anyone know what's happening with the plan to remove the point roundabout and replace it with a three-arm signalised junction? I haven't seen any update since 2015. The new junction is featured in the OP drawing.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning-planning-news/proposed-point-roundabout-improvement-scheme-part-8

https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/proposed-point-roundabout-improvement-scheme-part/supporting_documents/Information%20Leaflet.pdf

Geuze

Any sense in running a tram line out Pearse street / Ringsend road to serve new developments in south docks, and on to Irishtown / Poolbeg?

Consonata

Is this Poolbeg extension like the one in the map? In that there is a branch from College green out east.

annfield1978

TII are doing some initial feasibility work on this project presently

Peregrine

cisk wrote: »

Does anyone know what's happening with the plan to remove the point roundabout and replace it with a three-arm signalised junction? I haven't seen any update since 2015. The new junction is featured in the OP drawing.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning-planning-news/proposed-point-roundabout-improvement-scheme-part-8

https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/proposed-point-roundabout-improvement-scheme-part/supporting_documents/Information%20Leaflet.pdf

http://irishcycle.com/2016/01/14/point-roundabout-redesign-deferred-in-hope-of-walking-and-cycling-improvements/

Consonata wrote: »

Is this Poolbeg extension like the one in the map? In that there is a branch from College green out east.

A route for the Poolbeg line has not been selected so that map is probably guesswork. The Poolbeg extension is in NTA's GDA 2016-2035 strategy along with a couple of other extensions so TII will definitely look into it.

However, NTA's strategy document and TII's submission in the The Exo planning application both refer to an extension of the Red line from The Point.

flogen

Peregrine wrote: »

Take the proposed lines on that map with a bucket of salt.

1. All current plans indicate a Red line extension to Poolbeg as opposed to a Lucan line extension.
2. There were never any selected routes for the Finglas and Bray extensions.
3. Fassaroe proposal was scrapped. Not in the NTA GDA 2016-2035 strategy. Only a Bray extension.
4. Luas Line E was dead before it was even planned. I think it was just FF election noise. A feasibility study conducted by the RPA stated that it wouldn't meet running costs.
5. A second line to Tallaght? Never heard of that. Probably just more election stuff.

I was going to say - the route used in that map for the Finglas extension would be a disaster for a number of reasons (cutting through parks & roundabouts, running down narrow roads in the middle of housing estates etc).

Tbh I'm not entirely sure how they envision the line running from Broombridge but my best guess is that it will run through or beside the industrial estate, getting onto the Finglas Rd as early as possible... then it could run on a relatively straight-forward route while also offering stops at/near Glasnevin Cemetery, Tesco Clearwater (which now has a nursing home next to it) Finglas Village & Charlestown Shopping Centre.

It might be wishful thinking but it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for it to extend towards Ballymun from there (maybe running in a similar line to the M50?), which would allow it to cater to another population centre while perhaps even linking again with the Metro.

roadmaster

Geuze wrote: »

Any sense in running a tram line out Pearse street / Ringsend road to serve new developments in south docks, and on to Irishtown / Poolbeg?

It would i think be excellent if they could do something like that, as it would leave Pearse station, Bord Gais Theater , Google and the new bolands mills all within easy walking distance of good public transport ( i dont like buses)

D14Rugby

Would it be an idea to have the red line loop around to dalkey, green line extend to Finglas/airport underground metro dependant and a new line from rathfarnham/knocklyon through town to clontarf/Sutton. You'd cover most of the city with those lines, only thing is roads would have to close which would face opposition

Stephen15

D14Rugby wrote: »

Would it be an idea to have the red line loop around to dalkey, green line extend to Finglas/airport underground metro dependant and a new line from rathfarnham/knocklyon through town to clontarf/Sutton. You'd cover most of the city with those lines, only thing is roads would have to close which would face opposition

And the money will come from?

D14Rugby

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the money will come from?

I'm not saying do this tomorrow but it's widely accepted that the luas needs to expand so I would like to see that as part of a phased extension over the next 10/20 years

markpb

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the money will come from?

Irish government budget this year is €56 billion. You could build all those lines for less than 1% of that per year.

spacetweek

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the money will come from?

This always makes me laugh. Government budgets are just a matter of spending priorities. Once it's decided that something will happen, the money is found (or diverted).

LeinsterDub

roadmaster wrote: »

It would i think be excellent if they could do something like that, as it would leave Pearse station, Bord Gais Theater , Google and the new bolands mills all within easy walking distance of good public transport ( i dont like buses)

The DART is close enough to most of them

D14Rugby

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The DART is close enough to most of them

DART only connects them to the east coast though. Not that bad a walk from those places to either luas line though as is

LeinsterDub

D14Rugby wrote: »

DART only connects them to the east coast though. Not that bad a walk from those places to either luas line though as is

Plenty of places would love to have that complaint. Not saying a Luas there wouldn't work but it's not high on my agenda

D14Rugby

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Plenty of places would love to have that complaint. Not saying a Luas there wouldn't work but it's not high on my agenda

Wouldn't be that high on mine either, I'd say North Dublin (pretty much all of it, there's only really dart and soon some luas serving there) and central/slightly west south Dublin(Harold's cross, terenure, templeogue, rathfarnham, etc) should be next for public transport improvements

Peregrine

flogen wrote: »

I was going to say - the route used in that map for the Finglas extension would be a disaster for a number of reasons (cutting through parks & roundabouts, running down narrow roads in the middle of housing estates etc).

Tbh I'm not entirely sure how they envision the line running from Broombridge but my best guess is that it will run through or beside the industrial estate, getting onto the Finglas Rd as early as possible... then it could run on a relatively straight-forward route while also offering stops at/near Glasnevin Cemetery, Tesco Clearwater (which now has a nursing home next to it) Finglas Village & Charlestown Shopping Centre.

It might be wishful thinking but it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for it to extend towards Ballymun from there (maybe running in a similar line to the M50?), which would allow it to cater to another population centre while perhaps even linking again with the Metro.

That map is a bit crazy alright. It goes out of the way to serve Royal Canal Park and then completely misses the village.

I can't see a route that wouldn't cut across the park though. There's very little point in serving the cemetery near Ballybogan Road. It would add more time to the journey and wouldn't be a popular stop. It'd probably cut across the park, through the green at St. Helena's onto Wellmount Road or Church Street.

How to get from the village to the shopping centre is the big question. If you go too far into the village, you're stuck in a 5-way junction which is too busy as it is and Jamestown Road is too narrow. If you don't go into the village, there's space on Finglas Road of course but the bridge at Mellowes Road would probably have to be rebuilt to accommodate it underneath. You could go into the village and come back out onto Finglas Road on the other side of the bridge but that adds time to the journey.

I haven't given it too much thought but it's a tricky enough route.

D14Rugby wrote: »

Would it be an idea to have the red line loop around to dalkey, green line extend to Finglas/airport underground metro dependant and a new line from rathfarnham/knocklyon through town to clontarf/Sutton. You'd cover most of the city with those lines, only thing is roads would have to close which would face opposition

Dalkey? Even if there was a a suitable route (I can't see one), you'd be replicating the DART for most of it.

Again, Clontarf/Sutton would duplicate the DART for most of the line. A Rathfarnham route would be entirely on street, would require the purchase of dozens of properties and would take too long to go from end to end. The RPA looked into it.

What Dalkey, Sutton and Clontarf need is DART Underground. A Luas line to Dalkey and Sutton via Clontarf would probably cost almost as much as the tunnel!

D14Rugby

Peregrine wrote: »

Dalkey? Even if there was a a suitable route (I can't see one), you'd be replicating the DART for most of it.

Again, Clontarf/Sutton would duplicate the DART for most of the line. A Rathfarnham route would be entirely on street, would require the purchase of dozens of properties and would take too long to go from end to end. The RPA looked into it.

What Dalkey, Sutton and Clontarf need is DART Underground. A Luas line to Dalkey and Sutton via Clontarf would probably cost almost as much as the tunnel!

Do ya know I completely forgot the dart was a thing then I posted that, I was looking at a luas map and I just completely blanked on the dart being a thing. My bad, maybe just loop it around to ringsend sort of area then but it's not too far from either luas line or dart there so not a priority.
A route to rathfarnham would be very manageable if roads were closed but that's a big if and is unlikely to ever happen but just now for an area of its size rathfarnham is severally under served by reliable public transport and a luas would fix that but you'd have to close some fairly heavily used roads or buy property to do it.

flogen

markpb wrote: »

Irish government budget this year is €56 billion. You could build all those lines for less than 1% of that per year.

The only problem being the vast majority of that goes towards current expenditure and only a small amount to CapEx. It's easier said than done to move 1% of that in any direction.

But even if an extra ~€550m per year was found it there are other projects that would take priority - not just for political reasons but for economic ones too.

flogen

Peregrine wrote: »

That map is a bit crazy alright. It goes out of the way to serve Royal Canal Park and then completely misses the village.

I can't see a route that wouldn't cut across the park though. There's very little point in serving the cemetery near Ballybogan Road. It would add more time to the journey and wouldn't be a popular stop.

I dunno; the cemetery is an increasingly popular tourist attraction for the north side - so could see it being a useful stop for that purpose alone. But definitely not a crucial one.

It'd probably cut across the park, through the green at St. Helena's onto Wellmount Road or Church Street.

Not sure if it's still the case but there's a history of buses having to divert from roads around there due to stone throwing etc. Would be surprised to see them run the Luas around it.

To me the only logical thing is to get it onto the Finglas Rd as early as possible - either via Ballybogan or Tolka Valley Rd.

That gives it a fairly straight run on a wide road (which has space to be widened in many places) while also cutting through the middle of the local population (it would be more convenient for people in Glasnevin & Finglas East, for example). It would also stop it having to run through housing estates.

How to get from the village to the shopping centre is the big question. If you go too far into the village, you're stuck in a 5-way junction which is too busy as it is and Jamestown Road is too narrow. If you don't go into the village, there's space on Finglas Road of course but the bridge at Mellowes Road would probably have to be rebuilt to accommodate it underneath. You could go into the village and come back out onto Finglas Road on the other side of the bridge but that adds time to the journey.

I haven't given it too much thought but it's a tricky enough route.

Running it into the village would never work - as you say, far too busy already.

Easiest/cheapest /quickest solution is to put a stop around the junction of the main Finglas Road and Wellmount Road (next to the Bottom). Not particularly central but only a short walk to the village proper. Alternative is, as you say, to run it up a ramp at the bridge and put a stop at the other end of the village - at the Seamus Ennis Rd / Mellowes Rd - before going back along the Finglas Rd towards Charlestown. Though IMO that wouldn't be all that much handier as a stop than one beside the Bottom, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth the extra hassle.

What I do struggle to see is where it would run and stop to serve the shopping centre.

If it did follow the Finglas Rd it would either have to turn at the lights before the M50 (which seems messy) or dump people on the North Rd with a bit of a walk to go.

That map suggests it would turn at the roundabout and go up St Margaret's Road - but I can't see that working on such a narrow stretch of road.

wordofwarning

I don't see the point of serving Finglas. I would if the place was flattened and replaced with a Sandyford style development. But as is, Finglas has few office workers, no third level institution, no major shopping centre/ district(Charlestown is not great) and it is really only low density social housing. Give it a BRT at most, but not a Luas.

LeinsterDub

wordofwarning wrote: »

I don't see the point of serving Finglas. I would if the place was flattened and replaced with a Sandyford style development. But as is, Finglas has few office workers, no third level institution, no major shopping centre/ district(Charlestown is not great) and it is really only low density social housing. Give it a BRT at most, but not a Luas.

Like Crumlin, Dolphin's Barn, Rialto etc, etc


Public transport for the rich only please :rolleyes:

Population infomation: http://airo.maynoothuniversity.ie/external-content/dublin-city

markpb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Like Crumlin, Dolphin's Barn, Rialto etc, etc Public transport for the rich only please :rolleyes:

Get off your high horse, (s)he was saying that rail-based transport should be concentrated on areas where lots of people live or work. That's not elitist, it's just practical. It might be preferable to target rail at areas where high density _could_ be achieved. Luas to Ashtown and Dart to Clongriffin are good examples of this.

Population infomation: http://airo.maynoothuniversity.ie/external-content/dublin-city

Apparently 1,528 people live in Phoenix park now. I didn't realise they counted reindeer in the census

LeinsterDub

markpb wrote: »

Get off your high horse, (s)he was saying that rail-based transport should be concentrated on areas where lots of people live or work. That's not elitist, it's just practical. It might be preferable to target rail at areas where high density _could_ be achieved. Luas to Ashtown and Dart to Clongriffin are good examples of this.

The density in Finglas is on a par with other areas currently served by Luas

Stephen15

wordofwarning wrote: »

I don't see the point of serving Finglas. I would if the place was flattened and replaced with a Sandyford style development. But as is, Finglas has few office workers, no third level institution, no major shopping centre/ district(Charlestown is not great) and it is really only low density social housing. Give it a BRT at most, but not a Luas.

I disagree Finglas does have a number of Industrial estates with office. A line to Finglas could also serve Glasnevin another well populated area. Since Finglas is currently a bus only area no Rail, Dart or Luas a line out there would actually make sense. Its also reletively near the cc so a line to there wouldn't break the bank.

caff

markpb wrote: »

Get off your high horse, (s)he was saying that rail-based transport should be concentrated on areas where lots of people live or work. That's not elitist, it's just practical. It might be preferable to target rail at areas where high density _could_ be achieved. Luas to Ashtown and Dart to Clongriffin are good examples of this.



Apparently 1,528 people live in Phoenix park now. I didn't realise they counted reindeer in the census

Probably counting the barracks

ManAboutCouch

markpb wrote: »

Apparently 1,528 people live in Phoenix park now. I didn't realise they counted reindeer in the census

It's a little bit difficult to see with the level of transparency AIRO have chosen for that map, but the Phoenix Park ED includes all of the housing between Chapelizod Road / Conyngham Road and the Liffey. That includes the developments at Parkgate Place and Bridgewater Quay, which are fairly large.

wordofwarning

Stephen15 wrote: »

I disagree Finglas does have a number of Industrial estates with office. A line to Finglas could also serve Glasnevin another well populated area. Since Finglas is currently a bus only area no Rail, Dart or Luas a line out there would actually make sense. Its also reletively near the cc so a line to there wouldn't break the bank.

Finglas has very limited industrial space. Glasnevin Industrial Estate has more units and that is currently being served by the new Luas extension.

Most of Glasnevin is about 3 km from Finglas eg DCU. It does not make sense to expect the residents of Glasnevin to drive 3km to Finglas to get a Luas, when it would be quicker to take the bus to the City instead. Glasnevin has DCU, a hospital, the Botanic Gardens/Cemetery (some of the most visited tourist attractions in Dublin) etc.

If anything run the Luas to Glasnevin, which actually has something in it other than a run down strip mall and low density social housing. It makes no sense to run a Luas to Finglas, as it isnt that expensive. Whereas Glasnevin has a University, a hospital, tourist attractions etc.

LeinsterDub

wordofwarning wrote: »

Finglas has very limited industrial space. Glasnevin Industrial Estate has more units and that is currently being served by the new Luas extension.

Most of Glasnevin is about 3 km from Finglas eg DCU. It does not make sense to expect the residents of Glasnevin to drive 3km to Finglas to get a Luas, when it would be quicker to take the bus to the City instead. Glasnevin has DCU, a hospital, the Botanic Gardens/Cemetery (some of the most visited tourist attractions in Dublin) etc.

If anything run the Luas to Glasnevin, which actually has something in it other than a run down strip mall and low density social housing. It makes no sense to run a Luas to Finglas, as it isnt that expensive. Whereas Glasnevin has a University, a hospital, tourist attractions etc.

Glasnevin industrial estate is just about served it's a 10 minute walk to the edge and it's in Finglas (Glasnevin barely depending on your definition) Glasnevin cemetery is in Finglas (Again Glasnevin barely depending on your definition) . DCU is to be served by MN