Future Luas expansion in GDA strategy 2016-2035

bk

caff wrote: »

markpb wrote: »

Apparently 1,528 people live in Phoenix park now. I didn't realise they counted reindeer in the census

Probably counting the barracks

Plus the president and family, US Ambassador and family, plus a few others including apparently some psychic!

Yeah funny story time, I'm cycling down the main road of Phoenix Park, stop to take a breather and a taxi stops besides me and two girls jump out! This is the middle of the park!

They ask me do I know where some Psychic lives in the park. I'm like, WTF! One girl points to a house and asks maybe there? I'm like no, not unless our president has gained new powers!!

They then explain that the taxi driver was acting weird, saying inappropriate things and they just told him to stop to get out of it.

Yup he did look like a bit of a creep, he got out of the taxi and went behind a tree to take a piss!

I had no idea where the Psychic they were looking for lived, but I of course stayed with them for a while until the taxi driver drove off and they called for directions, etc.

I checked when I got home and yup, turns out there are some houses in the park, including some famous psychic! Weird night!

L1011

There are various houses for current or former Park staff. My great grandfather lived in one for his later career as head gardener and then for a gate lodge for life (rent to be paid) on retirement. When his widow moved out to sheltered housing it was refurbed and rented to a current groundsman.

Neither of them is/was a psychic!

Peregrine

flogen wrote: »

I dunno; the cemetery is an increasingly popular tourist attraction for the north side - so could see it being a useful stop for that purpose alone. But definitely not a crucial one.

Any sort of cemetery stop wouldn't get closer to the cemetery than the Ballybogan Road/Finglas Road junction which is a ten minute walk from the main entrance where tourists would want to be. And the Luas would take over 15 minutes to get there whereas a bus would drop them off outside the main entrance in 15 minutes. Besides, Glasnevin cemetery gets 200 paying visitors a day. I know there's a lot more unpaid visitors and that there's a lot of potential.

flogen wrote: »

Not sure if it's still the case but there's a history of buses having to divert from roads around there due to stone throwing etc. Would be surprised to see them run the Luas around it.

To me the only logical thing is to get it onto the Finglas Rd as early as possible - either via Ballybogan or Tolka Valley Rd.

That gives it a fairly straight run on a wide road (which has space to be widened in many places) while also cutting through the middle of the local population (it would be more convenient for people in Glasnevin & Finglas East, for example). It would also stop it having to run through housing estates.



Running it into the village would never work - as you say, far too busy already.

Easiest/cheapest /quickest solution is to put a stop around the junction of the main Finglas Road and Wellmount Road (next to the Bottom). Not particularly central but only a short walk to the village proper. Alternative is, as you say, to run it up a ramp at the bridge and put a stop at the other end of the village - at the Seamus Ennis Rd / Mellowes Rd - before going back along the Finglas Rd towards Charlestown. Though IMO that wouldn't be all that much handier as a stop than one beside the Bottom, so I'm not sure if it'd be worth the extra hassle.

What I do struggle to see is where it would run and stop to serve the shopping centre.

If it did follow the Finglas Rd it would either have to turn at the lights before the M50 (which seems messy) or dump people on the North Rd with a bit of a walk to go.

That map suggests it would turn at the roundabout and go up St Margaret's Road - but I can't see that working on such a narrow stretch of road.

I think you're absolutely right about St. Helena's. I didn't think of that. I've never been on the 40 when it happened so I can't be certain of the exact spots but the 40 gets diverted away from Finglas South at least two nights a month. Bringing it down to Finglas Road would also serve The Tolka, Craigie Court and Premier Square much better. There's space either side of Finglas Road but it will require a lot of CPOs.

Going into the village will be ridiculously expensive and slow. A stop on the Finglas Road is the best option. As for going from the village to Charlestown, you could probably make the line run parallel to Finglas Road on the west side from Church Street, bring it up the slipway and back down again. You can definitely bring it back down the slipway on the north side but it's tight on the south side. The bridge would have to be rebuilt if it's to accommodate a Luas underneath it.

After that, you could keep it parallel to Finglas Road or in the median up to the roundabout. There's loads of space between the road and the park. There's no space at the roundabout to do a Naas/Long Mile Road job on it. It'll be expensive but I just don't see an alternative to a bridge over it. If you're still on the west side then there's space for it in the park.

Going through North Road would be a lot cheaper than St. Margaret's Road. And there are a lot of businesses on North Road. I wouldn't worry about stopping at the shopping centre. All the roads were built wide and there's space between the road and the buildings. The surface car park only has planning permission til 2019.

Overall, it would be very expensive. Around 5km and several 100m euros. A study may well find it unfeasible.

markpb wrote: »

Apparently 1,528 people live in Phoenix park now. I didn't realise they counted reindeer in the census

That includes all the apartments on Conyngham Road.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Finglas has very limited industrial space. Glasnevin Industrial Estate has more units and that is currently being served by the new Luas extension.

Most of Glasnevin is about 3 km from Finglas eg DCU. It does not make sense to expect the residents of Glasnevin to drive 3km to Finglas to get a Luas, when it would be quicker to take the bus to the City instead. Glasnevin has DCU, a hospital, the Botanic Gardens/Cemetery (some of the most visited tourist attractions in Dublin) etc.

If anything run the Luas to Glasnevin, which actually has something in it other than a run down strip mall and low density social housing. It makes no sense to run a Luas to Finglas, as it isnt that expensive. Whereas Glasnevin has a University, a hospital, tourist attractions etc.

Where to begin..

Glasnevin deserves a rail connection alright but a long-winded extension from Broombridge isn't what it needs. It needs Metro North. A Luas extension from Broombridge would work for Finglas. And there's fat chance of a Luas extension to Finglas happening before Metro North. Your post, while badly-informed, is also quite flippant. Extending Luas from Broombridge to Glasnevin over Metro North is bad for Glasnevin and bad for Finglas.

I presume you mean Dublin Industrial Estate. I believe it's the largest one in Dublin (and ripe for redevelopment) so it's a little unfair to compare. There's plenty of industrial space in Finglas.

As for low density, The Tolka is one of the highest density apartments on the Northside. Premier Square, Tolka Valley, Craigie Court and, Mayestown and Charlestown is also high density and there's a good few mid-density between that. What's better, there's plenty of room for more apartments. There's a huge site between Premier Square and Glenhill, a planning application has been lodged for the vacant site at the bottom of Violet Hill, another one lodged to change the Main Centre to apartments, another planning application lodged for 230 apartments beside the shopping at Charlestown with space for more.

It has its low and high density areas but to say Finglas is low density social housing is ridiculous.

MJohnston

You could connect the Luas to Glasnevin Cemetary pretty easily without any additional line required:

wordofwarning

Peregrine wrote: »

Going into the village will be ridiculously expensive and slow. A stop on the Finglas Road is the best option.

The whole village was pretty much in NAMA. You literally could buy most of the units in Finglas for a few million. I doubt there would be any issue with CPO and flat lining a lot of Finglas Village. Most of it is ripe for redevelopment

Peregrine wrote: »

It has its low and high density areas but to say Finglas is low density social housing is ridiculous.

How would you describe it? Bar the few hundred apartments at Tolka and Charlestown, most of Finglas is low density social housing. There is very little private rentals in Finglas. Tolka is well serviced by buses and is quick to get to town due to the QBC to the City

Finglas has a handful of high density area. But unless the Village is getting the wrecking ball that it badly needs, I personally find it very hard justifying spending hundreds of millions to service what is basically a glorified social housing estate with a handful of private developments.

Bar a handful of offices, Finglas has little office space, no tourist attractions, limited shopping/cafe/bars etc and no education facilities.

BoatMad

Stephen15 wrote: »

One of the problems with the orginal tram systems was that I think correct if I'm wrong it was Irish gauge rather than standard gauge which the luas is meaning the tracks would be ridiculously wide meaning there would be very little roadspace for cars and buses etc.

well they were slightly less than the heavy rail gauge of 5'3", they were 5'2"& 3/16 !

The difference from standard gauge 0f 4'8"& ½ is not that great , so I wouldn't agree with your contention

The reason the trams were discontinued is they largely ran in the middle of the road with no allowance for road traffic. hence they had to go in irelands love affair with the car in post war ireland

BoatMad

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the money will come from?

we borrow it of course, no issues there at present , were at 60% of GDP and falling

Bray Head

BoatMad wrote: »

Stephen15 wrote: »

And the money will come from?

we borrow it of course, no issues there at present , were at 60% of GDP and falling

The ratio is falling because the economy is growing and older, expensive borrowing is being replaced by cheaper funding.
Government will still spend more than it takes in this year.

PS: The ratio is still >70% this year.

flogen

wordofwarning wrote: »

Finglas has very limited industrial space. Glasnevin Industrial Estate has more units and that is currently being served by the new Luas extension.

Most of Glasnevin is about 3 km from Finglas eg DCU. It does not make sense to expect the residents of Glasnevin to drive 3km to Finglas to get a Luas, when it would be quicker to take the bus to the City instead. Glasnevin has DCU, a hospital, the Botanic Gardens/Cemetery (some of the most visited tourist attractions in Dublin) etc.

If anything run the Luas to Glasnevin, which actually has something in it other than a run down strip mall and low density social housing. It makes no sense to run a Luas to Finglas, as it isnt that expensive. Whereas Glasnevin has a University, a hospital, tourist attractions etc.

Just a quick point - regardless of what they say, DCU is in Ballymun :P

And that will have the Metro on its doorstep long before the Luas is extended further north.

In terms of what's actually Glasnevin, that's probably less densely populated than Finglas and has no real shopping/social area either. That's not to mention the logistical contortions that would be required to run the Luas from Broombridge to Glasnevin.

As I mentioned before I'd expect any further extension for the Luas to run mostly down the Finglas Road, which would leave it running at or close to the bottom of Violet Hill.

That would leave it fairly close to the cemetery - which is now linked to the gardens, so there's that problem solved. It would also make it quite convenient for a large portion of Glasnevin residents (the ones that will be furthest away from the Metro line)

There's a fair bit of office & industrial space in Finglas too - with a lot of development up around Charlestown (the industrial estate across from Melville is massive & there's another big one on the other side of the North Rd, as a big Gas Network Ireland office and plenty of other businesses like car dealerships etc).

And as Peregrine has pointed out, there's also a lot of high density housing, particularly along the Finglas Road (which, as I said, is where I'd expect the Luas to run)

That's not all to say that I think it makes absolute sense to run the Luas up to Finglas - it may well prove too expensive - but there is an argument to be made for its consideration (far more than any other area it could be extended to, including Glasnevin)

Peregrine wrote: »

Any sort of cemetery stop wouldn't get closer to the cemetery than the Ballybogan Road/Finglas Road junction which is a ten minute walk from the main entrance where tourists would want to be. And the Luas would take over 15 minutes to get there whereas a bus would drop them off outside the main entrance in 15 minutes. Besides, Glasnevin cemetery gets 200 paying visitors a day. I know there's a lot more unpaid visitors and that there's a lot of potential.

You'd have to be a fast walker to get from Broombridge to Glasnevin Cemetery in ten minutes!

And a walk from there brings people through the industrial estate, so not particularly tourist friendly.

Don't see why it would take 15 minutes to get the Luas down the Ballyboggan Rd either - but as I've said it wouldn't be a make-or-break thing for me... there are probably other ways of connecting the two besides running the line that way.

I think you're absolutely right about St. Helena's. I didn't think of that. I've never been on the 40 when it happened so I can't be certain of the exact spots but the 40 gets diverted away from Finglas South at least two nights a month.

Yeah - I'm never on it myself so only know from seeing the odd announcement from DB (and irregular warnings that the service will be pulled altogether).

Bringing it down to Finglas Road would also serve The Tolka, Craigie Court and Premier Square much better. There's space either side of Finglas Road but it will require a lot of CPOs.

Would also bring it relatively close to Glasnevin, so would become more convenient to another portion of the population.

Going into the village will be ridiculously expensive and slow. A stop on the Finglas Road is the best option. As for going from the village to Charlestown, you could probably make the line run parallel to Finglas Road on the west side from Church Street, bring it up the slipway and back down again. You can definitely bring it back down the slipway on the north side but it's tight on the south side. The bridge would have to be rebuilt if it's to accommodate a Luas underneath it.

After that, you could keep it parallel to Finglas Road or in the median up to the roundabout. There's loads of space between the road and the park. There's no space at the roundabout to do a Naas/Long Mile Road job on it. It'll be expensive but I just don't see an alternative to a bridge over it. If you're still on the west side then there's space for it in the park.

Going through North Road would be a lot cheaper than St. Margaret's Road. And there are a lot of businesses on North Road. I wouldn't worry about stopping at the shopping centre. All the roads were built wide and there's space between the road and the buildings. The surface car park only has planning permission til 2019.

Overall, it would be very expensive. Around 5km and several 100m euros. A study may well find it unfeasible.

Yep - that's definitely the most plausible way (assuming, as you say, it's plausible at all).

Hadn't realised that car park only had planning for a few more years - will be interesting to see what happens to it.

wordofwarning wrote: »

The whole village was pretty much in NAMA. You literally could buy most of the units in Finglas for a few million. I doubt there would be any issue with CPO and flat lining a lot of Finglas Village. Most of it is ripe for redevelopment

From what I know most of NAMA's properties in Finglas are apartments outside of the village - not sure what (if anything) they own in the village itself.

A businessman did buy up a lot of properties in the village a few years ago - likely for dirt cheap- and seems to have been quite successful in getting tenants in. Supervalu are also putting a few quid into their shop, which was badly needed.

There are still some vacant units and you could question the quality of some tenants but the village actually has a bit of life in it again, so there's hope of it recovering after being pretty much shut down by McNamara. There's even talk of the Drake reopening (though that could be seen as a step in the wrong direction!!)

Long story short, CPOing and flattening it wouldn't be anything close to as cheap or easy as you think. I can see some buildings being revamped over time but I can't see another village-wide redevelopment plan in the medium or even long term.

How would you describe it? Bar the few hundred apartments at Tolka and Charlestown, most of Finglas is low density social housing. There is very little private rentals in Finglas. Tolka is well serviced by buses and is quick to get to town due to the QBC to the City

The amalgamation of routes a few years ago has made it anything but quick to get from Finglas to town by bus. Most of the routes that are left snake through every estate, practically going door-to-door to pick up passengers.

Finglas has a handful of high density area. But unless the Village is getting the wrecking ball that it badly needs, I personally find it very hard justifying spending hundreds of millions to service what is basically a glorified social housing estate with a handful of private developments.

Bar a handful of offices, Finglas has little office space, no tourist attractions, limited shopping/cafe/bars etc and no education facilities.

If the Luas were to go to Finglas it would probably run by all or most of the high density housing - and would pass but not run through the lower density areas (leaving it a short walk for people in many of those estates). It would also serve the growing amount of industrial and office space as well as a village and shopping centre that's in expansion mode.

Chivito550

If LUAS goes to Finglas would it make more sense to branch off after the Cabra stop rather than detouring through Broombridge? Only thing is this would reduce the number of services to each.

LeinsterDub

BoatMad wrote: »

well they were slightly less than the heavy rail gauge of 5'3", they were 5'2"& 3/16 !

The difference from standard gauge 0f 4'8"& ½ is not that great , so I wouldn't agree with your contention

The reason the trams were discontinued is they largely ran in the middle of the road with no allowance for road traffic. hence they had to go in irelands love affair with the car in post war ireland

They were gone before the post war period . Only 3 lines survived till 1949 + hill of howth . Read the wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_tramways . Nothing to do with a love affair with the car.

Chivito550 wrote: »

If LUAS goes to Finglas would it make more sense to branch off after the Cabra stop rather than detouring through Broombridge? Only thing is this would reduce the number of services to each.

I'd rather the slight detour with greater service than a more direct route and a luas 1 every 20 minutes

MJohnston wrote: »

You could connect the Luas to Glasnevin Cemetary pretty easily without any additional line required:

eh?

rameire

flogen wrote: »

Just a quick point - regardless of what they say, DCU is in Ballymun :P

Whitehall Actually

BoatMad

One thing that concerns me about LUIs expansion , is the fact that they all seem to be " extensions ". If we keep extending single lines we will rapidly hit max loading, we are already buying the longest trams in Europe

what we need are more lines

the bottle plant site should be served by a ringend line, possibly continuing on via christchurch ballymun etc not another extension to an existing line

flogen

rameire wrote: »

Whitehall Actually

I wouldn't argue with that... but either way we can agree it's not Glasnevin

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

eh?

I just mean, a couple of minor pedestrian bridges at the points I indicated would connect Glasnevin Cemetary (and actually, a lot of Glasnevin in general) with Cabra LUAS stop with a very short (5 minute?) walk.

D14Rugby

I'm going to ask a question that probably has a really simple answer but I can't think of it so let's go easy.
I read somewhere that metro south is apparently going to pretty much be the turning of the current green line into an underground line. What's the point? Surely the money would be much better spent elsewhere. The green line is completely fine being overground doesn't cause any major inconvenience to anyone really the fact it's overground.

MJohnston

D14Rugby wrote: »

I'm going to ask a question that probably has a really simple answer but I can't think of it so let's go easy.
I read somewhere that metro south is apparently going to pretty much be the turning of the current green line into an underground line. What's the point? Surely the money would be much better spent elsewhere. The green line is completely fine being overground doesn't cause any major inconvenience to anyone really the fact it's overground.

That's not correct, it'd actually replace the existing Green Line from Ranelagh south, overground. North of that it'd be a tunnel that would connect with the proposed MN tunnel.

Stephen15

MJohnston wrote: »

That's not correct, it'd actually replace the existing Green Line from Ranelagh south, overground. North of that it'd be a tunnel that would connect with the proposed MN tunnel.

Yes but there would have to be proper level crossings. I will not support of a light rail metro. A metro should really be heavy rail like most other cities with a metro perhaps even driverless. Light rail is half arsed Imo.

MJohnston

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but there would have to be proper level crossings. I will not support of a light rail metro. A metro should really be heavy rail like most other cities with a metro perhaps even driverless. Light rail is half arsed Imo.

Why do people on here love to argue with a poster who is merely presenting facts? D14Rugby thought that Metro South was planned as an underground line, I corrected that to what is the current plan. I'm not expressing any kind of opinion on Metro South at all, nor do I want to.

lateconnection

D14Rugby wrote: »

I'm going to ask a question that probably has a really simple answer but I can't think of it so let's go easy.
I read somewhere that metro south is apparently going to pretty much be the turning of the current green line into an underground line. What's the point? Surely the money would be much better spent elsewhere. The green line is completely fine being overground doesn't cause any major inconvenience to anyone really the fact it's overground.

The plan for Metro South is that it will involve the extension of MN's tunnels from SSG to the currently vacant site behind the old Irish Nationwide Building just south of Charlemont Luas stop, where there will be a tie-in with the existing Green Line.

There was never a plan to put the Green Line totally underground.

Based on what Michael Nolan of TII told a recent Oireachteas committee on the Capital Plan Review, the new MN plan will not end at SSG, they will just continue on to the site south of Charlemont, so MN and Metro South will essentially be done as the combined project. Badly needed, considering the current Green Line congestion.

In regards to the road crossings, I think a plan might exist somewhere to close them once Metro South comes into operation.The NTA did say in the 2016-35 Transport Strategy that Metro would be fully segregated from traffic, so a bit of work would need to be done on the Green Line. Here is what I think COULD happen:

The crosings at Beechwood and Milltown can be closed easily, but the one at Stillorgan would require the line to be elevated over the road with a station on the bridge, or put into a cutting underneath the road with the station there. South of Sandyford, there are alot more crossings, so at Blackthorn Avenue that Bridge would need to be extended a bit more, and then between Glencairn and Ballyogan Wood, the only solution would probably be to put the line into a retained open cutting or a cut and cover tunnel.

They simply cannot run 30 trams per hour and have interactions with traffic. There is also talk that new MN could be driverless, so just imagine a driverless tram and cars sharing road space. Many crashes. Just look at the Luas now for example, and the amount of crashes with cars, and that system has a driver.

D14Rugby

lateconnection wrote: »

The plan for Metro South is that it will involve the extension of MN's tunnels from SSG to the currently vacant site behind the old Irish Nationwide Building just south of Charlemont Luas stop, where there will be a tie-in with the existing Green Line.

There was never a plan to put the Green Line totally underground.

Based on what Michael Nolan of TII told a recent Oireachteas committee on the Capital Plan Review, the new MN plan will not end at SSG, they will just continue on to the site south of Charlemont, so MN and Metro South will essentially be done as the combined project. Badly needed, considering the current Green Line congestion.

In regards to the road crossings, I think a plan might exist somewhere to close them once Metro South comes into operation.The NTA did say in the 2016-35 Transport Strategy that Metro would be fully segregated from traffic, so a bit of work would need to be done on the Green Line. Here is what I think COULD happen:

The crosings at Beechwood and Milltown can be closed easily, but the one at Stillorgan would require the line to be elevated over the road with a station on the bridge, or put into a cutting underneath the road with the station there. South of Sandyford, there are alot more crossings, so at Blackthorn Avenue that Bridge would need to be extended a bit more, and then between Glencairn and Ballyogan Wood, the only solution would probably be to put the line into a retained open cutting or a cut and cover tunnel.

They simply cannot run 30 trams per hour and have interactions with traffic. There is also talk that new MN could be driverless, so just imagine a driverless tram and cars sharing road space. Many crashes. Just look at the Luas now for example, and the amount of crashes with cars, and that system has a driver.

Ah okay I was a bit confused by what I read. So it would be underground until charlemont then the same except it wouldnt be luas trams and would be more dart like if not darts. Would these be faster than luas trams?

LeinsterDub

lateconnection wrote: »

The NTA did say in the 2016-35 Transport Strategy that Metro would be fully segregated from traffic, so a bit of work would need to be done on the Green Line. .

They need to figure that out in Ballymun first

bk

D14Rugby wrote: »

Ah okay I was a bit confused by what I read. So it would be underground until charlemont then the same except it wouldnt be luas trams and would be more dart like if not darts. Would these be faster than luas trams?

Metro North will be more like Luas Trams then DARTs.

The will be longer at 90 meters, versus upto 54 meters for Luas and maybe a bit wider, but otherwise very similar.

Speed isn't really much of an issue, Luas can actually go quiet fast when on fully segregated sections and no reason to think the new Metro North trams can't match or better DART.

D14Rugby

bk wrote: »

Metro North will be more like Luas Trams then DARTs.

The will be longer at 90 meters, versus upto 54 meters for Luas and maybe a bit wider, but otherwise very similar.

Speed isn't really much of an issue, Luas can actually go quiet fast when on fully segregated sections and no reason to think the new Metro North trams can't match or better DART.

Ye I was just trying to figure out why use new trams and not just luas trams but I guess the extra size answers that

lateconnection

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They need to figure that out in Ballymun first

Totally agree, surface running in Ballymun is a crazy idea that adds to the journey times of not only metro users, but also car and bus users. Also a higher risk of crashes with cars as there are going to be junctions and interactions with traffic.

It was actually rejected in the public consultation for original MN by the locals, and fair play to them. I would say that it will be rejected for new MN this time too, because at the end of the day, who would want 30 trams per hour running right outside your house? Nobody would. New MN could also have 24hr operation too.

It was also rejected as it was found that surface running through Ballymun would have "consequent impacts on the reliability of the service provided by the scheme"- Quoting the RPA/TII on that.

And after all that, surface running through Ballymun is now back on the table, totally idiotic. Hope it is rejected in favour of a cut and cover tunnel.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Metro North will be more like Luas Trams then DARTs.

The will be longer at 90 meters, versus upto 54 meters for Luas and maybe a bit wider, but otherwise very similar.

Speed isn't really much of an issue, Luas can actually go quiet fast when on fully segregated sections and no reason to think the new Metro North trams can't match or better DART.

I know your stating but I really any metro to be built should heavy not light rail. Light rail simply doesn't have the capacity to match heavy rail. Light rail is really a half arsed metro. We need proper trains not glorified trams.

marno21

Surface running in Ballymun will be ruled out if this is to go ahead as any kind of Metro system. It simply can't go through Ballymun at grade if it's to be a) high frequency and b) 90m Metros.

If it's to be that light rail it may as well be Luas Airport or Blue Luas. Some waste of time and money if so.

AngryLips

There is a dedicated section of the road space in ballymun for metro, there is no reason to put it underground there. Reasons to do so are just nimbyism

marno21

AngryLips wrote: »

There is a dedicated section of the road space in ballymun for metro, there is no reason to put it underground there. Reasons to do so are just nimbyism

Is this on the R108? There is dedicated road space for a Luas, not a Metro.

Heartbreak Hank

bk wrote: »

The will be longer at 90 meters, versus upto 54 meters for Luas and maybe a bit wider, but otherwise very similar.

marno21 wrote: »

b) 90m Metros.

I thought one of the main changes to New Metro North is that the trams and stations were to be 60m - has there been a change to this and sense has been seen?