Marathon Improvers Thread.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

How did you get on at the HM....Did you race it at HMP? I have a half this Sunday and its supposed to be at HMP as per the plan, but not sure whether I should go all out at it or be a bit more conservative.

Short answer to that one would be yes....

Where's your HM on? Given that it's 10 weeks out, I'd say go for it if you feel up for it, unless you have other races in the pipeline.

peterc14

HM is in Donegal..think I will try to give it a rattle at HM pace (or close to it).
What time did you get at the half...do you think the plan is working at this stage?!

JohnDozer

Just the usual question about swapping stuff around to suit tune-up races:-

I'm thinking my current conundrum lies around not racing a half, as I've seen a few places that its not really recommended. I found a race I like the look of but its a week earlier than the plan. Its the Cork 10 miler. I would then plan to use my Charleville Half entry as my MP long run.

So I'm just looking for ideas to swap things around to suit. I'm thinking just to swap the Friday/ Saturday/ Sunday days of the race weeks and one of the adjacent weeks to make it as easy and least disruptive as possible.

So the week ending the 10th of September would have a 12m MLR, 5 Recovery and a 20 miler on the Fri/ Sat/Sun, w/e the 17th would then have 5 Recovery with strides, 8k-15k tune-up race, and 17 miles and the w/e the 24th would have a 12m MLR, Recovery 5 and an 18 miler with 14 @ MP. So the idea would be to pull the week ended the 17th (the middle one) forward a week. Pull the week ended the 24th (the last one) forward a week, and then replace that week with the one from the week ended the 10th. I hope that's clear enough. Is it OK to disregard the earlier part of the week in my considerations given there is always a rest day on a Monday? Is there other factors I need to consider that I haven't?

All ideas welcome!

zulutango

I've been doing a Strava 12 week programme and have two long runs done already.

I'm aiming to do a marathon in about 3:05:00 because my 5k, 10k and half times tell me this is achievable.

My pace for the long runs at the moment is about a minute per mile slower than what my race pace will be. But, the thing is, even though it's slow I'm fairly spent at the end. It's hard to imagine that I can run faster over that distance, and these runs aren't anywhere near a full marathon distance yet. I've been doing everything right in terms of fuelling I think.

So, I'm just wondering if this is normal for marathon training. Am I likely to see major improvements over the next two months in terms of the distances that I can cover comfortably and at a faster pace if I just stick with the programme?

adrian522

What are your 5k, 10K and hlaf times? What is your current marathon PB? I'd be wary of basing your target time solely on shorter distance times.

There is a thread on the main forum with peoples half times and marathon times and in most cases they failed to hit what the predicted times should be based on their half times.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

HM is in Donegal..think I will try to give it a rattle at HM pace (or close to it).
What time did you get at the half...do you think the plan is working at this stage?!

1:38:03. PB is still 1:37. So far happy enough with the plan, although I have been mixing it with club sessions etc.

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

1:38:03. PB is still 1:37. So far happy enough with the plan, although I have been mixing it with club sessions etc.

Good running. Im just interested because the plan states that do go sub 3.30 you should be able to run HM in 1:36:xx.....and there is only 2 races in the plan prior to DDM to do it. I don't think I will get anywhere near that this weekend but there is another chance in week 10 which will probably tell the tale of how the training has gone.

hot buttered scones

zulutango wrote: »

I've been doing a Strava 12 week programme and have two long runs done already.

I'm aiming to do a marathon in about 3:05:00 because my 5k, 10k and half times tell me this is achievable.

My pace for the long runs at the moment is about a minute per mile slower than what my race pace will be. But, the thing is, even though it's slow I'm fairly spent at the end. It's hard to imagine that I can run faster over that distance, and these runs aren't anywhere near a full marathon distance yet. I've been doing everything right in terms of fuelling I think.

So, I'm just wondering if this is normal for marathon training. Am I likely to see major improvements over the next two months in terms of the distances that I can cover comfortably and at a faster pace if I just stick with the programme?

I did that Strava plan a couple of years ago and found the paces too fast for the long runs and easy runs. The Fartlek sessions, tempos and cruise interval paces were ok. Some find McMillan to be a bit optimistic when it comes to predicting race times. I think his easy paces are way too hard. If I'm using McMillan's calculator correctly he gives a range of 8:24-7:11 for the long runs for you. I think the faster end of that range is too fast for the long run and I;d be trying to do the majority of the run towards the slower end of that pace range, maybe picking up the pace for the last few miles. I'd slow down for the shorter easy runs as well.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

Good running. Im just interested because the plan states that do go sub 3.30 you should be able to run HM in 1:36:xx.....and there is only 2 races in the plan prior to DDM to do it. I don't think I will get anywhere near that this weekend but there is another chance in week 10 which will probably tell the tale of how the training has gone.

I certainly wouldn't race any more than twice between now and DCM. Although they're great for (for example) getting a feel for where you are in terms of potential times, you're taking time out of your training to rest before and recover after them. Hence your overall mileage suffers. Last year I raced the FD10 and the Race Series HM during this period, whereas this year I won't be racing flat out again until October 29

Week 10 of the Asics plan? so 6 weeks out?

The Black Oil

Hello, been a while since I posted in here. Thinking ahead to the FD10 which isn't that far away. I completed the 6 week 2016 DCM graduates base plan, now on week 4/14 of the intermediate marathon plan (with a view to a second crack at DCM). I'm not doing the Dublin Half in Sept as I'll be at work.

I don't have a time in mind for the FD10 - at this stage, I'm more pondering strategy. In 2016 my FD10 time was 1:32:XX (it's in the 2016 novices thread, can't recall the seconds) - obviously I'd like to improve this. My 10k in May (this year) was 54:30 and my training paces have been based off of this. I've not been in race since. Calculator said my MP is 9:37, should I aim for this for the FD? Strategy...was thinking of trying to go at an even pace for the first 8 miles, then saving more effort for the final 2. Dunno how that sounds.

Also, I'm due to do 2 hours 30 mins at easy the day after the FD10. That would probably come in at ~ 13 miles. I'd prefer to stick to this, but understand if it's not advisable.

Wubble Wubble

The Black Oil wrote: »

Hello, been a while since I posted in here. Thinking ahead to the FD10 which isn't that far away. I completed the 6 week 2016 DCM graduates base plan, now on week 4/14 of the intermediate marathon plan (with a view to a second crack at DCM). I'm not doing the Dublin Half in Sept as I'll be at work.

I don't have a time in mind for the FD10 - at this stage, I'm more pondering strategy. In 2016 my FD10 time was 1:32:XX (it's in the 2016 novices thread, can't recall the seconds) - obviously I'd like to improve this. My 10k in May (this year) was 54:30 and my training paces have been based off of this. I've not been in race since. Calculator said my MP is 9:37, should I aim for this for the FD? Strategy...was thinking of trying to go at an even pace for the first 8 miles, then saving more effort for the final 2. Dunno how that sounds.

Also, I'm due to do 2 hours 30 mins at easy the day after the FD10. That would probably come in at ~ 13 miles. I'd prefer to stick to this, but understand if it's not advisable.

I'd try that pacing strategy next week and see how you get on.

I'm guessing that plan isn't factoring in you running 8+ miles at PMP the day before? In other words, I would probably do one or the other.

zulutango

adrian522 wrote:

What are your 5k, 10K and hlaf times? What is your current marathon PB? I'd be wary of basing your target time solely on shorter distance times.

5k - 18:40 (June 2017)
10k - 39:41 (October 2016)
HM - 1:31:07 (October 2016)

I also feel that I'm a good bit faster than I was when I posted those 10k and half marathon times last October. I do a lot of hill and mountain races so times on those don't mean a thing but I've been placing much higher this season than last.

Bobby1984

Kennyg71 wrote: »

No expert but your MLR mid week looks a little light on mileage, especially if endurance is an issue, and you don't seem to have any target sessions for MP runs, unless steady is MP, but I know one of other lads has had success with similar approach, DiegoB if you want to look at his log, in training logs forum, your easy range 5min - 5.25 looks little hot, I'd say 5.25 near Mark for easy.

There is more than one viable approach and I am only taking from approach I have been use to. I suppose though after all said you opted for the plan so may as well trust it, and if it doesn't go to plan see you in six years

Regardless of level of expertise, all advice is much appreciated.

I thought the LSR at weekend would cover me and didn't think twice about the MLR. I may look into this and see if I can add some distance without bumping up mileage too quickly. I didn't know about the training log section on here but I have found Diego_b's log from 2015 .... looks like I have plenty of reading to do I am also having a look at your training too as I see you are aiming for sub 3:30. Do you plan on following the pacer or do you think you would be going slightly faster. I have never followed a pacer but it is something I am considering, it just means that I have one less thing to think about during the race. I see your training is going well so far with some great race times. I would be delighted to do a 1:40 half which is going to be the Kilkenny half on 26th Sept.

Its good to hear that you think that my easy pace is a bit on the hot side, I am rarely near 5mins on this run, usually around 5:15. I try get in some training at MP during my LSR, maybe the last 5 or 6k. As you mentioned, steady will also be done at MP.


Blog continues at https://marathonmanpart2.blogspot.ie/

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Week 10 of the Asics plan? so 6 weeks out?

Yeah week 10 of the plan states "15M HMP or 13M quick".

The Black Oil

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

I'd try that pacing strategy next week and see how you get on.

I'm guessing that plan isn't factoring in you running 8+ miles at PMP the day before? In other words, I would probably do one or the other.

The Sunday segments of the intermediate plan alternate between 2+ hour runs (building to 3 hours early October) and 70-90 minute progression runs. Last Sun was 2 hr 15 easy, this Sun will be 90 mins progression at 3 different paces. Saturdays normally tend to be 60 mins very easy or moderate, again alternating. For the Sat of the FD10 the plan (which doesn't factor in races bar DCM) calls for 60 mins moderate, with 2 hours 30 easy on the Sun (Aug 27th). Perhaps it's best to skip the Sun LSR in the aid of rest, though. The following Sunday is back to 75 mins moderate, with 2 hours 15 easy the Sunday after that again.

adrian522

zulutango wrote: »

5k - 18:40 (June 2017)
10k - 39:41 (October 2016)
HM - 1:31:07 (October 2016)

I also feel that I'm a good bit faster than I was when I posted those 10k and half marathon times last October. I do a lot of hill and mountain races so times on those don't mean a thing but I've been placing much higher this season than last.

Looking at those times it shows that your performances get weaker as your distance increases. That indicates a lack of endurance, which is an issue a lot of us face.

Having a look at your VDOT and predicted marathon time for each distance we get:

5k - 18:40 (June 2017) - 54 - 2:58
10k - 39:41 (October 2016) - 52.4 - 3:03
HM - 1:31:07 (October 2016) - 50.3 - 3:09

So even though you may go a bit faster than the below if you were to race now, it still seems that your predicted marathon time is getting slower as the distance increases.

I would say you would be better off training for a slower marathon time than 3:10 as obviously endurance is hugely important in the marathon and that if you continue training for 3:05 that it is likely that you won't achieve your goal especially as you are finding the paces tough even on the long runs.

If you trained more towards 3:15 I think you would have a better experience on race day and if you are feeling good at this pace after 20 miles or so you could pick up the pace, but if you go out at 3:05 pace I think it is likely that you will be really struggling by the time you get to that 20 mile marker.

IS this going to be your first marathon?

adrian522

peterc14 wrote: »

Yeah week 10 of the plan states "15M HMP or 13M quick".

How do you do 15M HMP exactly?

Wubble Wubble

adrian522 wrote: »

How do you do 15M HMP exactly?

:pac: That's an odd one all right. It seems as if they're suggesting 15 miles @ 7:20 :eek:

I couldn't do 13(.1) of those in last Sunday's race, and realistically I very much doubt if I'll be able to make up the difference over the next 4-5 weeks. Has anyone here tried it before?

To expand on it a bit further, they say that you should be able to complete 15 miles in 1:48. Given that we'll be going through halfway in or around 1:45 on the day (all going well!), to suggest that we go so much further at a faster pace only 6 weeks out seems nuts. Maybe someone else will be able to explain the logic behind it a bit better.

Kennyg71

Bobby1984 wrote: »

Regardless of level of expertise, all advice is much appreciated.

I thought the LSR at weekend would cover me and didn't think twice about the MLR. I may look into this and see if I can add some distance without bumping up mileage too quickly. I didn't know about the training log section on here but I have found Diego_b's log from 2015 .... looks like I have plenty of reading to do I am also having a look at your training too as I see you are aiming for sub 3:30. Do you plan on following the pacer or do you think you would be going slightly faster. I have never followed a pacer but it is something I am considering, it just means that I have one less thing to think about during the race. I see your training is going well so far with some great race times. I would be delighted to do a 1:40 half which is going to be the Kilkenny half on 26th Sept.

Its good to hear that you think that my easy pace is a bit on the hot side, I am rarely near 5mins on this run, usually around 5:15. I try get in some training at MP during my LSR, maybe the last 5 or 6k. As you mentioned, steady will also be done at MP.


Blog continues at https://marathonmanpart2.blogspot.ie/

Not sure which plan you are using, DB was using running shoes guru, he used for 2016 as well. I work in miles so LR starts at about 9.20 mins per mile and should peak at about 8.45 over course of run, every few weeks I try finish with couple of MP miles. Recovery runs are under 9.30 per mile. Definitely think it is worth you while increasing your MLR over next few weeks, there is some good information on main A/R page under new runners information, it's in first 3 threads at top of page, lots of Marathon advice and some interesting reading.

I wouldn't fiddle woth your plan to much, adding some extra easy miles to MLR always a good idea from endurance point of view. Best of luck with.

peterc14

adrian522 wrote: »

How do you do 15M HMP exactly?

Think they mean 15 miles at 7:20 minute miles...pretty tough going!!
Has anyone followed the Asics plan previously and done this?

hot buttered scones

adrian522 wrote: »

How do you do 15M HMP exactly?

From the plan:

15M at half marathon race or 13M quick(plus 1M warm-up and cool-down)

I'd read that as race a half marathon with 1 mile warm and cool down (=15 miles) or do a half marathon time trial with one mile warmup and cool down

zulutango

adrian522 wrote: »

Looking at those times it shows that your performances get weaker as your distance increases. That indicates a lack of endurance, which is an issue a lot of us face.

Having a look at your VDOT and predicted marathon time for each distance we get:

5k - 18:40 (June 2017) - 54 - 2:58
10k - 39:41 (October 2016) - 52.4 - 3:03
HM - 1:31:07 (October 2016) - 50.3 - 3:09

So even though you may go a bit faster than the below if you were to race now, it still seems that your predicted marathon time is getting slower as the distance increases.

I would say you would be better off training for a slower marathon time than 3:10 as obviously endurance is hugely important in the marathon and that if you continue training for 3:05 that it is likely that you won't achieve your goal especially as you are finding the paces tough even on the long runs.

If you trained more towards 3:15 I think you would have a better experience on race day and if you are feeling good at this pace after 20 miles or so you could pick up the pace, but if you go out at 3:05 pace I think it is likely that you will be really struggling by the time you get to that 20 mile marker.

IS this going to be your first marathon?

Thank you for that. It's not so much that the long run pace is tough. My breathing and heart rate are slow. It's just that by the end I'm stiff as a board and more tired than I'd expect to be for the pace and I'm wondering can I step things up in terms of pace and distance in 10 weeks time for the real thing. Now, in saying that, it's less than 48 hours since I ran 25km and the body feels surprisingly good. I don't have the same DOMS that I had for a few days after my first long run last week, so maybe all is ok. This weekend I'll be aiming for 2.5 hours. Will see how that goes.

adrian522

I think training for 3:05 is too optimistic based on your 5k, 10k and half times I'd recommend slowing the pace of your long runs down. IF you are not used to running these long distances then you are going to be stiff and sore after long runs, its expected.

You should be doing some stretching and foam rolling to help with that I think.

ger664

zulutango. I would echo adrian522 here. Your marathon pace from your fitness is ~3:15. The difference between your 5K -> 10K -> HM times is 6-7 sec /400m. That is a big dropoff and indicates a lack of aerobic endurance. You will really benefit from doing your long runs slower. 8:30-9/mile would be in the zone for that.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

Think they mean 15 miles at 7:20 minute miles...pretty tough going!!
Has anyone followed the Asics plan previously and done this?

Speaking of which, did you try the 200s as per plan?

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

Speaking of which, did you try the 200s as per plan?

I did the 200s and was surprised that I completed them not too bad....completing them next week after the HM may be a different story though!

clickerquicklic

peterc14 wrote: »

Think they mean 15 miles at 7:20 minute miles...pretty tough going!!
Has anyone followed the Asics plan previously and done this?

I'm just going to do that in week 11 as thats when race series half marathon is on so i'll swap week around. I read it as 1 mile warm up and cool down and race a half marathon.

For the Tuesday and Thursday sessions are you doing it at the recommended paces or your current 5k/10k paces? The 200's and 400's I'd normally do 35-40 and 78-85 range but they are suggesting 45-50 and 95-100 . Maybe this plan can be altered to current fitness level as it gives lots of paces based on your own 5k/10k paces.

peterc14

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm just going to do that in week 11 as thats when race series half marathon is on so i'll swap week around. I read it as 1 mile warm up and cool down and race a half marathon.

For the Tuesday and Thursday sessions are you doing it at the recommended paces or your current 5k/10k paces? The 200's and 400's I'd normally do 35-40 and 78-85 range but they are suggesting 45-50 and 95-100 . Maybe this plan can be altered to current fitness level as it gives lots of paces based on your own 5k/10k paces.

I have been just doing as the plan... think my 200's ended up just below 45secs

Van.Bosch

When a training plan has a speed session such as 8*600 with 200 recoveries with the fast part at 5/10k pace, could this be substituted for a parkrun being ran at 5k race pace?

Makes sense to me in that you're doing longer distance at that pace but just curious if the fast/slow/fast/slow etc has other benefits?

Kennyg71

Van.Bosch wrote: »

When a training plan has a speed session such as 8*600 with 200 recoveries with the fast part at 5/10k pace, could this be substituted for a parkrun being ran at 5k race pace?

Makes sense to me in that you're doing longer distance at that pace but just curious if the fast/slow/fast/slow etc has other benefits?

The session teaches your body to run fast comfortably as you run recoveries during session you don't get same stress of all out race effort. If you run as 5k race it puts a lot more stress on your body and you may not fully recover in time to realise training benefits of your next session.

Your plan is designed to put max training benefit in towards an end goal, if you race or run to hard off plan you change the goal of this session and possibly next few sessions if you don't recover in time, you may get away with doing it once, but if you do to often can lead to injury or under performance in goal race.

You could if you have the disaplin run the session during parkrun, but if it is hillycourse make sure to adjust efforts on ups & downs.