Marathon Improvers Thread.

Spirogyra

Goal tomorrow is to do 18 miles, slowly, as slow as possible while still running.....Next weekend will do a 5K race Friday and13 or 14 Sunday..

zulutango

I'm hoping to do the Galway Bay half marathon. The only problem is that it clashes with my programme. I'm supposed to be doing my longest run the following day. Any thoughts & advice?

Kennyg71

zulutango wrote: »

I'm hoping to do the Galway Bay half marathon. The only problem is that it clashes with my programme. I'm supposed to be doing my longest run the following day. Any thoughts & advice?

You could do couple easy w/u and c/d miles either side of the race and you should get 16/17 miles in, just do easy recovery next day,

zulutango

Kennyg71 wrote: »

You could do couple easy w/u and c/d miles either side of the race and you should get 16/17 miles in, just do easy recovery next day,

The programme says to push for 3.5 hours though. By my reckoning that'll take me to around 28 miles. I think it's interesting that it suggests a longer distance (slower pace) than the marathon itself. I didn't think that was normal for marathon programmes.

RayCun

zulutango wrote: »

The programme says to push for 3.5 hours though. By my reckoning that'll take me to around 28 miles. I think it's interesting that it suggests a longer distance (slower pace) than the marathon itself. I didn't think that was normal for marathon programmes.

3.5 hours?
where did this programme come from?

zulutango

Strava, which I think is based on the McMillan programmes.

Glencarraig

peterc14 wrote: »

I have been just doing as the plan... think my 200's ended up just below 45secs

I found this on the www a while ago and find it to be a brilliant guide to interval/tempo pace. Very accurate too, well for me anyway !!

http://www.capitalarearunners.com/training/interval.html

Kennyg71

zulutango wrote: »

Strava, which I think is based on the McMillan programmes.

Looking at your plan it gives a range 2.30 - 3.30, what time do you hope to do in Marathon. The LR at easy pace should start at maybe minute to minute and half slower than PMP, I assume 3.5 hrs is for someone running at 4.5 - 5 hr time, to get them physiology prepared for long time on their feet, but if you are in faster end, below 3.30hrs you may only get about 20 miles or less, some where between 2.5 - 3 hrs. You certainly wouldn't be doing 28 miles in a training run.

pgarr

zulutango wrote: »

The programme says to push for 3.5 hours though. By my reckoning that'll take me to around 28 miles. I think it's interesting that it suggests a longer distance (slower pace) than the marathon itself. I didn't think that was normal for marathon programmes.

It sounds to me like the goal of the workout is time on feet. You can accomplish that to some capacity by doing the half the day before and running a shorter run on the Sunday fatigued. A back to back long run weekend.

It helps train the body for coping with the last miles of a marathon - if it were me and i wanted to do the half i would ignore the plans scheduled run and adapt. Race the half and then do a low intensity run the next day of equal distance or a bit more (15 miles - 17 mile range) .

Plans aren't meant to be completely rigid - sometimes you just do things

Singer

zulutango - Unless I'm doing it wrong, this is what the plan gives as instructions to me in Strava for the 2:30 - 3:30 long runs.

Today's long run should be 18-22 miles at Long Run Pace.

Today, the goal is to run 20-26 miles.

Today is your last long Long Run. The goal is to run 22-26 total miles to top off your endurance and leg strength for the race.

Where does it say go for 3:30? Per http://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans-LongRuns it's not common for popular marathon plans to go over the marathon distance - only Galloway does, and that's a run/walk plan. Elites and other very fast folks might well go over marathon distance in training to build endurance, but I think for most mere mortals it's pretty uncommon. Given your PBs detailed here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104382356&postcount=315 - running 28 miles at 7:30 pace as a training run sounds like lunacy to me. Given my reading of the plan and your paces I'd go for 22 miles at 7:45-8:00 pace.

hot buttered scones

zulutango wrote: »

Strava, which I think is based on the McMillan programmes.

I've done this plan before. It's 2:30 to 3:30 alright, but with a distance of 18-22 miles specified too.

Edit: I see Singer got in there first.

zulutango

Ah, I see. When I look ahead to that weekend on the Strava site it only gives me a summary (just the time). The finer details aren't revealed until two weeks beforehand so I figured it was suggesting I do longer than the marathon distance or the distance at a low pace.

adrian522

Singer wrote: »

zulutango - Unless I'm doing it wrong, this is what the plan gives as instructions to me in Strava for the 2:30 - 3:30 long runs.







Where does it say go for 3:30? Per http://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans-LongRuns it's not common for popular marathon plans to go over the marathon distance - only Galloway does, and that's a run/walk plan. Elites and other very fast folks might well go over marathon distance in training to build endurance, but I think for most mere mortals it's pretty uncommon. Given your PBs detailed here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104382356&postcount=315 - running 28 miles at 7:30 pace as a training run sounds like lunacy to me. Given my reading of the plan and your paces I'd go for 22 miles at 7:45-8:00 pace.

I'd also suggest you either do the half marathon or the long run, don't attempt to do both on consecutive days. At most I'd add 2 mile warm up and cool down to bring you to 17 miles for the day and take the Sunday as a recovery day with maybe a few very easy miles included.

zulutango

I'll do that. Thanks all.

Spirogyra

Would it be a reasonable plan to do a HM on the 17th September and bring it up to 20 miles by doing an extra few miles before and after ? Try to do HM at Marathon pace ? and slower for the 3 or 4 before and after ?. I'm referring to Charleville.

Murph_D

Spirogyra wrote: »

Would it be a reasonable plan to do a HM on the 17th September and bring it up to 20 miles by doing an extra few miles before and after ? Try to do HM at Marathon pace ? and slower for the 3 or 4 before and after ?. I'm referring to Charleville.

Depends what else you are doing that week, your marathon plan (and marathon experience) in general. Sounds reasonable for a fairly experienced marathon improver - I've raced a half 4-5 weeks out in most marathon cycles. Make sure you don't overdo things the week before and build in appropriate recovery after.

JohnDozer

Spirogyra wrote: »

Would it be a reasonable plan to do a HM on the 17th September and bring it up to 20 miles by doing an extra few miles before and after ? Try to do HM at Marathon pace ? and slower for the 3 or 4 before and after ?. I'm referring to Charleville.

That's pretty much what I'm doing for Charleville. It works out better for me to race the week before and that means I'm down for an 18 miler with 14 @ MP so I think the way I'll approach it is a handy 4 mile warmup plus race @ MP and a mile cool down. I'd say it makes no major difference what way you split the miles. All I'm conscious of is the timing of the warmup to minimise the gap between that and the race start, while not ending up right at the very back of the pack. Although that mightn't be a bad thing for pace control... in short, I think it's a good thing to do the MP in a race environment.

boydkev

I am signed up for the Charleville half and have 17m Long run on the plan, So going to do 2 before and 2 after. Still not sure how to pace the race as PB for half is 1.36 and my PMP would bring me in around 1.42. So might just run it at PMP as the marathon is my goal.

I also have a query, Tomorrow My plan(P&D 55) calls for "VO2max 8 mi w/ 5 x 800 m @ 5K race pace; jog 50 to 90% interval time between".
Do i do the 5 x 800m after the 8 miles or during the 8 miles. Just a bit confused with this one as its the first VO2 run of the plan.

RayCun

boydkev wrote: »

I also have a query, Tomorrow My plan(P&D 55) calls for "VO2max 8 mi w/ 5 x 800 m @ 5K race pace; jog 50 to 90% interval time between".
Do i do the 5 x 800m after the 8 miles or during the 8 miles. Just a bit confused with this one as its the first VO2 run of the plan.

During.
8 miles total
including 5x800

Unthought Known

Small query regarding effort on the easy runs. I ran 7m easy today, averaged 9:30 pace. However, looking at my HR I was in zone 1 for 98% of the run and zone 2 for 2%, a total of 1 minute. Avg HR was 127, max 139.
My target MP is 8:44 for a 3:50 finish. Was this easy run too easy? Should I try and keep these in zone 2?

ger664

Unthought Known wrote: »

Small query regarding effort on the easy runs. I ran 7m easy today, averaged 9:30 pace. However, looking at my HR I was in zone 1 for 98% of the run and zone 2 for 2%, a total of 1 minute. Avg HR was 127, max 139.
My target MP is 8:44 for a 3:50 finish. Was this easy run too easy? Should I try and keep these in zone 2?

How are the zones calculated in the watch ?

What did you enter for your max HR and how did you calculate it ?

For most watches you need to enter your actual MAX-HR and your HR-Age to get your zone correct. Even at that a lot of factors come into play.

For me My max is 180 (which makes me 40) 220 -180 = age. I am 51.So I enter max HR as 180 and my DOB as been 11 years younger

The best judge is did the run feel easy ? if it did then the pace is good if not it was too fast. Some days that pace will be easy and other days it will be a chore. On those days just slow down.

ittakestwo

I have a problem where I can only run to about 30-32k and then stopping. I have done 3 Dublin marathons and it has happened each time. The first marathon I did not put enough training into it and only signed up in august when I had run a max 10k distance so I was not surprised. I came in 3.57 so was happy.

But the next year I started training in june and did 28k, 30k, and 32k before the marathon with 2 week gaps between the long runs and a final 3 week gap before the marathon and came in 3.55 so was disappointed at only making a 2min gain, again I got to 32 k before the wheels came of.

Then the third year I did the same and started training june but was given the advice to start out much slower to run longer but this was the worst advice. not only could I only get to the same 32k distance before stopping. But because I had run it at much pace slower than I would have normally I came in at 4.20 mins.

My PB 10k in 36mins so these marathon times are very disappointing. Anybody know what I can do or do I have to accepted its not my distance.

ger664

ittakestwo wrote: »

I have a problem where I can only run to tabout 30-32k and then stopping. I have done 3 Dublin marathons and it has happened each. The first marathon I did not put enough training into it and only signed up in august when I was had run a max 10k distance so I was not surprised. I came in 3.57 so was happy.

But the next year I started training in june and did 28k, 30k, and 32k before the marathon with 2 week gaps between the long runs and a final 3 week gap before the marathon and came in 3.55 so was disappointed at only making a 2min gain, again I got to 32 k before the wheels came of.

Then the third year I did the same but was given the advice to start out much slower to run longer but this was the worst advice. not only could I only get to the same 32k distance before stopping. But because I had run it at much pace slower than I would have normally I came in at 4.20 mins.

I run 10k in 36mins so these marathon times are very disappointing. Anybody know what I can do or do I have to accepted its not my distance.

There is nothing magical about the marathon distance other then if you dont train properly you cant bluff it on the day.

You should be able for a sub 3 off 36 minute 10K and that is been conservative.

Are you in a club ? What training programs have you used in the past ?

ligerdub

ittakestwo wrote: »

I have a problem where I can only run to about 30-32k and then stopping. I have done 3 Dublin marathons and it has happened each time. The first marathon I did not put enough training into it and only signed up in august when I had run a max 10k distance so I was not surprised. I came in 3.57 so was happy.

But the next year I started training in june and did 28k, 30k, and 32k before the marathon with 2 week gaps between the long runs and a final 3 week gap before the marathon and came in 3.55 so was disappointed at only making a 2min gain, again I got to 32 k before the wheels came of.

Then the third year I did the same and started training june but was given the advice to start out much slower to run longer but this was the worst advice. not only could I only get to the same 32k distance before stopping. But because I had run it at much pace slower than I would have normally I came in at 4.20 mins.

My PB 10k in 36mins so these marathon times are very disappointing. Anybody know what I can do or do I have to accepted its not my distance.

How do you hydrate and sustain yourself energy wise through the race?

Unthought Known

ger664 wrote: »

How are the zones calculated in the watch ?

What did you enter for your max HR and how did you calculate it ?

For most watches you need to enter your actual MAX-HR and your HR-Age to get your zone correct. Even at that a lot of factors come into play.

For me My max is 180 (which makes me 40) 220 -180 = age. I am 51.So I enter max HR as 180 and my DOB as been 11 years younger

The best judge is did the run feel easy ? if it did then the pace is good if not it was too fast. Some days that pace will be easy and other days it will be a chore. On those days just slow down.

Thanks,
My max HR is 192. This was taken from the final sprint of a 5k race. My resting HR is 48 and I base my zones on HRR. Zone 2 is 60-70% HRR.
That 220-age is way off for me. I'm 46 so that would say my max is 174.

The run today felt very easy. I'm really wondering if any run can be considered too easy i.e. is it doing nothing other than adding some miles to my weekly total. Maybe my fitness has just improved and my easy pace has increased.

ittakestwo

ger664 wrote: »

There is nothing magical about the marathon distance other then if you dont train properly you cant bluff it on the day.

You should be able for a sub 3 off 36 minute 10K and that is been conservative.

Are you in a club ? What training programs have you used in the past ?

Not in a club. Basically I do a long run every 2 weeks uping it by 2k each time till 32k, 3 weeks before the marathon. And run overall about about 4-5 times a week. I would run on average 8-15k on these runs at different paces. Perhaps my millage is not enough? or my taper 3 weeks before is wrong. I remember the last time going into the marathon with heavy legs which I knew was not right. I think I tapered down to much which might have caused the heavy legs which goes against intuition. I purposely tapered down a lot so I would have fresh legs on the day but I think this backfired as I have read it is bad for muscles to taper down quickly.

Or else I am just not taking enough energy at the start anyway something is not working.

ger664

For where you are at I think your mileage is too small. Any training plan will have a long run every week and I would forget about distance and concentrate on time. You should be peaking in and around 2:40 to 3 Hours easy on your feet. I would not be worried about pace or anything just get into a habit of running long. Also during the week you should have a MLR of between 1:30 & 1:40 sandwiched between two 50-1 hour minutes runs. Throw in recovery runs on the other days if needed. Take a down week every 4 and do this for 4-6 months and then add in some faster stuff or do the 55 mile P&D 12 week prep and aim for a spring marathon followed by Dublin next year.

It will take 3-4 Marathon cycles on the bounce (with 1 month recovery after each) to get to your true potential. Running Dublin and then forgetting about Marathon Training/Long runs for 6 months afterwards loses whatever aerobic fitness that was gained while training for Dublin.

ger664

Unthought Known wrote: »

Thanks,
My max HR is 192. This was taken from the final sprint of a 5k race. My resting HR is 48 and I base my zones on HRR. Zone 2 is 60-70% HRR.
That 220-age is way off for me. I'm 46 so that would say my max is 174.

The run today felt very easy. I'm really wondering if any run can be considered too easy i.e. is it doing nothing other than adding some miles to my weekly total. Maybe my fitness has just improved and my easy pace has increased.

Those figures would indicate that it was indeed very easy but also suggest your MP could be in and around 8:00 (3:30).

Do you have any 5 Mile/10K races planned as it would be interesting to see results if you wore the watch/HR and covered it relying just on your own sense of pace.

pgarr

Unthought Known wrote: »

Thanks,
My max HR is 192. This was taken from the final sprint of a 5k race. My resting HR is 48 and I base my zones on HRR. Zone 2 is 60-70% HRR.
That 220-age is way off for me. I'm 46 so that would say my max is 174.

The run today felt very easy. I'm really wondering if any run can be considered too easy i.e. is it doing nothing other than adding some miles to my weekly total. Maybe my fitness has just improved and my easy pace has increased.

From my short experience running -

You can definitely do easy runs too hard, and compromise your training week or your training cycle because of it.

However - you can also do them too slow if your stride during is not efficient.

I always ask myself what is the purpose of this run before I head out the door - and that allows me to ensure I feel relaxed and comfortable through an easy run while also remembering to keep my stride pretty economical.

I've also noticed mondays are the slowest. Not a coincidence its after long run days - again the purpose is to recover quickly from the hard workout and be ready for the next while developing aerobic benefits. Just so happens to be that is accomplished at a slow pace

Unthought Known

ger664 wrote: »

Those figures would indicate that it was indeed very easy but also suggest your MP could be in and around 8:00 (3:30).

Do you have any 5 Mile/10K races planned as it would be interesting to see results if you wore the watch/HR and covered it relying just on your own sense of pace.

That's both encouraging and slightly scary. This will be my 3rd marathon. In DCM last year I faded badly to finish in 4:20. London this year I faded nearly as badly for a 4:16, though I also had blister problems.

Now my training this cycle has been pretty much spot on. I'm really feeling the benefit of the higher mileage in the meno plan, but also think I'm finally seeing the benefit of the last two marathon cycles. However, even a 3:50 target this time seems like a big jump so I wouldn't want to over estimate my ability.

I only have the Dublin HM and Irish 3/4 planned now and I'm only planning to run these as steady/MP sessions.
I was toying with the idea of doing Yasso 800's 6 weeks out. Any experience with them?