Marathon Improvers Thread.

ger664

Unthought Known wrote: »

I was toying with the idea of doing Yasso 800's 6 weeks out. Any experience with them?

Did them once and hit 3:30 pace but Marathon time was 3:41 afterwards. From most sources i have read adding 5-10 minutes to what you get is optimal.

Unthought Known

ger664 wrote: »

Did them once and hit 3:30 pace but Marathon time was 3:41 afterwards. From most sources i have read adding 5-10 minutes to what you get is optimal.

Thanks. It might at least give me a bit more confidence to hit my target (or of course it could go completely the opposite way!)

ittakestwo

ger664 wrote: »

For where you are at I think your mileage is too small. Any training plan will have a long run every week and I would forget about distance and concentrate on time. You should be peaking in and around 2:40 to 3 Hours easy on your feet. I would not be worried about pace or anything just get into a habit of running long. Also during the week you should have a MLR of between 1:30 & 1:40 sandwiched between two 50-1 hour minutes runs. Throw in recovery runs on the other days if needed. Take a down week every 4 and do this for 4-6 months and then add in some faster stuff or do the 55 mile P&D 12 week prep and aim for a spring marathon followed by Dublin next year.

It will take 3-4 Marathon cycles on the bounce (with 1 month recovery after each) to get to your true potential. Running Dublin and then forgetting about Marathon Training/Long runs for 6 months afterwards loses whatever aerobic fitness that was gained while training for Dublin.

Ok, so a lot more millage then. Realistically I wont be doing more than Dublin so I will never hit those times you suggest. Unfortunately I tried to register this year but was to late for Dublin but will be aiming for 2018. For 2018 it will be a lot more millage and running with the 3h markers to Rathgar where I will walk the rest

I think there has to be some acceptance that some runners can make the transition between a 10k to marathon for more easily without as much work than others. My brother does 10k in 45 mins and did not do as much training as me but comes in at 3.45.

RayCun

ittakestwo wrote: »

Not in a club. Basically I do a long run every 2 weeks uping it by 2k each time till 32k, 3 weeks before the marathon. And run overall about about 4-5 times a week.

How fast are you doing those long runs?

zulutango

ittakestwo wrote: »

I have a problem where I can only run to about 30-32k and then stopping. I have done 3 Dublin marathons and it has happened each time. The first marathon I did not put enough training into it and only signed up in august when I had run a max 10k distance so I was not surprised. I came in 3.57 so was happy.

But the next year I started training in june and did 28k, 30k, and 32k before the marathon with 2 week gaps between the long runs and a final 3 week gap before the marathon and came in 3.55 so was disappointed at only making a 2min gain, again I got to 32 k before the wheels came of.

Then the third year I did the same and started training june but was given the advice to start out much slower to run longer but this was the worst advice. not only could I only get to the same 32k distance before stopping. But because I had run it at much pace slower than I would have normally I came in at 4.20 mins.

My PB 10k in 36mins so these marathon times are very disappointing. Anybody know what I can do or do I have to accepted its not my distance.

36 mins for 10k? Is that a typo. If not, what weight and height are are you?

ittakestwo

RayCun wrote: »

How fast are you doing those long runs?

just under 7 mins a mile on average. Struggle to get home but can push myself and pretty much dead after it. the difference in how I feel after a long run of 24k to 32k is exponentially worse. My face goes blue after the 32k long run. BTW weak hearts are in my family so this could be a reason for finding the long distances much tougher.

RayCun

ittakestwo wrote: »

just under 7 mins a mile on average. Struggle to get home but can push myself and pretty much dead after it. the difference in how I feel after a long run of 24k to 32k is exponentially worse. My face goes blue after the 32k long run. BTW weak hearts are in my family so this could be a reason for finding the long distances much tougher.

So you're running your long runs at your marathon pace, or thereabouts?
That's the problem. Your long runs should be at an easier pace, closer to 8 minute miles. You are not adapting to the distance at all, you're just going out and killing yourself each week.

zulutango

I'm taking on board advice in this thread to pitch my marathon attempt for 3:15 rather than 3:05. The only thing is that the long runs and easy pace seem almost too relaxed. So, I reverted to my long run pace for the 3:05 target (which is 5:00min/km) and I find that I can do it fairly handily. My average heart rate for these long runs is in the low 130's and very comfortably in the aerobic range. I could push the pace a bit more and still be doing an aerobic run. I know that if I run easier my average heart rate will be in the 120's and this seems too low. So, I'm wondering, is it better to train to heart rate or to the slower pace suggested by the programme?

RayCun

zulutango wrote: »

I'm taking on board advice in this thread to pitch my marathon attempt for 3:15 rather than 3:05. The only thing is that the long runs and easy pace seem almost too relaxed. So, I reverted to my long run pace for the 3:05 target (which is 5:00min/km) and I find that I can do it fairly handily.

Long run pace is a range, not a fixed number. As long as that really is comfortable, you're fine.

ittakestwo

RayCun wrote: »

So you're running your long runs at your marathon pace, or thereabouts?
That's the problem. Your long runs should be at an easier pace, closer to 8 minute miles. You are not adapting to the distance at all, you're just going out and killing yourself each week.

Yeah I was. I only really took it easy on recovery runs. Thanks I will try this next time on the long runs.

boydkev

My current plan calls up to do 8x100m strides after a 8 mile aerobic run, Can strides be replaced with 8x100m hill sprints?

Kennyg71

boydkev wrote: »

My current plan calls up to do 8x100m strides after a 8 mile aerobic run, Can strides be replaced with 8x100m hill sprints?

8 x 100m hill sprints would be a much greater effort than, 8 x 100 m strides and would not have same focus, i.e. Improving leg turnover and form. I'd say if you did a controlled hill session 8 x 10/12 sec at about 80% effort would be ok.

The stress of 8 x 100m hill sprits would really stress your system and may compromise your next session.

ittakestwo

zulutango wrote: »

36 mins for 10k? Is that a typo. If not, what weight and height are are you?

Only reading this now. New to boards so not sure sure when getting messages. Not a typo, Male, 33, 1.87m and 76kg, tho this was done in 2014 race, did the spar 10k this year in 38 min but have got fitter since then been running 4-5 a week since june.

Not in a club and was not following a program which seems to be a problem, general millage and running the long run at a too fast a pace seems to be the verdict of where I went wrong form the running gurus.

Unthought Known

Anyone tried Tailwind during a marathon or other race? I've ordered a few to test, but just wondering how easy the stickpacks are to mix on the run. From what I remember water comes in 250ml bottles in the marathon which is half a stickpack.

G1raff3

Anyone else here doing the Asics plan? It's my first year following a plan and finding it's going pretty good so far. Doing the 3 days per week and aiming for sub 3:20.

denis b

Unthought Known wrote: »

Anyone tried Tailwind during a marathon or other race? I've ordered a few to test, but just wondering how easy the stickpacks are to mix on the run. From what I remember water comes in 250ml bottles in the marathon which is half a stickpack.

I know that Ososlo (Training Log quiet since early July) has a particular interest and experience with Tailwind. She may not see this post here but it would be worthwhile dropping a post on her log to get some advice.

Best of luck with the training.

jameshayes

Unthought Known wrote: »

Anyone tried Tailwind during a marathon or other race? I've ordered a few to test, but just wondering how easy the stickpacks are to mix on the run. From what I remember water comes in 250ml bottles in the marathon which is half a stickpack.

I used my first stick on my long run the week before last, I mixed it before I left the house and most of it went on the counter top - so I can only imagine its difficult to do on the move.. this weekend I'll be mixing during the run so hopefully it goes well lol:pac:

Unthought Known

jameshayes wrote: »

I used my first stick on my long run the week before last, I mixed it before I left the house and most of it went on the counter top - so I can only imagine its difficult to do on the move.. this weekend I'll be mixing during the run so hopefully it goes well lol:pac:

Thanks James, I did wonder about that as I found it hard enough getting half a Hi5 zero tab in the bottle while running with sweaty hands etc.

I was actually thinking of looking for little plastic tubes (small enough to fit inside the bottle rim) to hold one serving each. Then maybe carry enough tubes for one 250ml bottle every 30 minutes or so.
If I find anything suitable I'll test and let you know how it goes.

jameshayes

Unthought Known wrote: »

Thanks James, I did wonder about that as I found it hard enough getting half a Hi5 zero tab in the bottle while running with sweaty hands etc.

I was actually thinking of looking for little plastic tubes (small enough to fit inside the bottle rim) to hold one serving each. Then maybe carry enough tubes for one 250ml bottle every 30 minutes or so.
If I find anything suitable I'll test and let you know how it goes.

I read in the little leaflet that you can actually mix it to a syrup and then dilute as you go - that could be an option too

conti

I just got a set of inexpensive (and BPA free) silicon bottles on Amazon (image attached), I'm going to experiment with making my own energy pastes over the next couple of weeks, will report back here if they're of any use.

Unthought Known

conti wrote: »

I just got a set of inexpensive (and BPA free) silicon bottles on Amazon (image attached), I'm going to experiment with making my own energy pastes over the next couple of weeks, will report back here if they're of any use.

Thanks for that. I also read a tip on the Tailwind facebook page that said fat drinking straws hold 1 scoop (just tape up the ends).

boydkev

7 full weeks to go till DCM and still following the P&D plan, Only had one bad week where i went on holidays(still managed a run every second day of over 8m). I am enjoying following the plan as the run types and paces are very varied.

With regard to the Tune-Up races that are coming up, What do people suggest if i am planning on doing Charleville and Cork-Cobh on the sunday after these? Or do i just go out and run the distance at PMP but not sure as planning to run Charleville and Cork-Cobh at PMP.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

7 full weeks to go till DCM and still following the P&D plan, Only had one bad week where i went on holidays(still managed a run every second day of over 8m). I am enjoying following the plan as the run types and paces are very varied.

With regard to the Tune-Up races that are coming up, What do people suggest if i am planning on doing Charleville and Cork-Cobh on the sunday after these? Or do i just go out and run the distance at PMP but not sure as planning to run Charleville and Cork-Cobh at PMP.

Well I'm racing Charleville, which I've done before even though it deviates from the plan and it's been to suggested to me that it may not be the best idea, but I like to race a half in preparation for the full if I can. I can't do Cork to Cobh, but if I were I'd do a 3 mile easy warm, then run the first mile easy and the last 14@MP - which gives the 18 with 14@MP as per the plan.

boydkev

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Well I'm racing Charleville, which I've done before even though it deviates from the plan and it's been to suggested to me that it may not be the best idea, but I like to race a half in preparation for the full if I can. I can't do Cork to Cobh, but if I were I'd do a 3 mile easy warm, then run the first mile easy and the last 14@MP - which gives the 18 with 14@MP as per the plan.

That was what i was thinking of doing, But what would you have done on the saturday where its called up as tune up race.

Murph_D

boydkev wrote: »

That was what i was thinking of doing, But what would you have done on the saturday where its called up as tune up race.

The book is pretty clear about how to approach these tune up races. If it's on the schedule, just race as instructed!

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

That was what i was thinking of doing, But what would you have done on the saturday where its called up as tune up race.

Raced hard and do the long run the day after very easy, but the plan (up to 55 anyway) has a 10 miler max that week. I'm sacrificing mileage that week to race the half.

zulutango

So, I went out to the track to do a 'Yasso 800' session last night, as per the programme. The idea is that the pace you can hold for 10 x 800m reps is a good predictor of the marathon time that you are likely to achieve. A 3 minute average pace for the session indicates a 3 hour marathon is on the cards. A 3.15 average pace for the 10 x 800m suggests a 3:15.00 marathon is likely.

So, this is all very compelling to somebody like me who hasn't run a marathon before. I've taken the advice given by others here and revised my target to 3:15.00. I had originally aimed for 3:05.00 but others here suggested it was too ambitious and I decided to listen to the voices of wisdom for once in my life. But last night the neaderthal brain took over and I decided to push hard and see what I could do. The programme called for 8 x 800m at this stage so that's all I did (rather than 10), and I managed to consistently do each in 3.00 and some of them were a couple of seconds quicker. It was a very wet night and the track was slippy so I think in better conditions I'd take another few seconds per lap off.

Now, since coming home and reading up on the science a bit, it seems that this session isn't much good from a marathon training point of view and the only benefit is the coincidental (and disputed) correlation between the average 800m pace and the achievable marathon pace. On the one hand, it's reassuring to know that I seem to be in the ballpark for 3:15 or faster. On the other hand, it might have been better to do more marathon specific training.

Just wondering what others views are on this particular session, or speed training in general?

Murph_D

zulutango wrote: »

So, I went out to the track to do a 'Yasso 800' session last night, as per the programme. The idea is that the pace you can hold for 10 x 800m reps is a good predictor of the marathon time that you are likely to achieve. A 3 minute average pace for the session indicates a 3 hour marathon is on the cards. A 3.15 average pace for the 10 x 800m suggests a 3:15.00 marathon is likely.

So, this is all very compelling to somebody like me who hasn't run a marathon before. I've taken the advice given by others here and revised my target to 3:15.00. I had originally aimed for 3:05.00 but others here suggested it was too ambitious and I decided to listen to the voices of wisdom for once in my life. But last night the neaderthal brain took over and I decided to push hard and see what I could do. The programme called for 8 x 800m at this stage so that's all I did (rather than 10), and I managed to consistently do each in 3.00 and some of them were a couple of seconds quicker. It was a very wet night and the track was slippy so I think in better conditions I'd take another few seconds per lap off.

Now, since coming home and reading up on the science a bit, it seems that this session isn't much good from a marathon training point of view and the only benefit is the coincidental (and disputed) correlation between the average 800m pace and the achievable marathon pace. On the one hand, it's reassuring to know that I seem to be in the ballpark for 3:15 or faster. On the other hand, it might have been better to do more marathon specific training.

Just wondering what others views are on this particular session, or speed training in general?

I think the yassoo test is useful enough, but only if you don't realise until afterwards wht the point of it was! It's too easy to force the pace and get an unrealistic predictor. In my experience it's far, far more difficult to run a 3:15:00 marathon than to do a series of 3:15 800 repeats.

But speed training is essential. All marathon plans have a speed element. 'Speed' generally tends to mean 3-5k pace though, although there is often some faster stuff. Either way, those 800s didn't do you any harm, unless you totally flogged yourself and will be unable to complete the next session as a result (a mistake most of us make from time to time).

zulutango

Murph_D wrote: »

But speed training is essential. All marathon plans have a speed element. 'Speed' generally tends to mean 3-5k pace though, although there is often some faster stuff. Either way, those 800s didn't do you any harm, unless you totally flogged yourself and will be unable to complete the next session as a result (a mistake most of us make from time to time).

Not sure if I could have pulled off 10 reps at this pace. I was fairly bollocksed by the end, but feeling fairly ok today. The legs are heavy but not too much. I had a long run penned in for Sunday, but something has come up which means I have to bring it forward to tomorrow, which isn't ideal at all. The extra day recovery from the Yasso 800 session last night would have been good.

ittakestwo

zulutango wrote: »

So, I went out to the track to do a 'Yasso 800' session last night, as per the programme. The idea is that the pace you can hold for 10 x 800m reps is a good predictor of the marathon time that you are likely to achieve. A 3 minute average pace for the session indicates a 3 hour marathon is on the cards. A 3.15 average pace for the 10 x 800m suggests a 3:15.00 marathon is likely.

So, this is all very compelling to somebody like me who hasn't run a marathon before. I've taken the advice given by others here and revised my target to 3:15.00. I had originally aimed for 3:05.00 but others here suggested it was too ambitious and I decided to listen to the voices of wisdom for once in my life. But last night the neaderthal brain took over and I decided to push hard and see what I could do. The programme called for 8 x 800m at this stage so that's all I did (rather than 10), and I managed to consistently do each in 3.00 and some of them were a couple of seconds quicker. It was a very wet night and the track was slippy so I think in better conditions I'd take another few seconds per lap off.

Now, since coming home and reading up on the science a bit, it seems that this session isn't much good from a marathon training point of view and the only benefit is the coincidental (and disputed) correlation between the average 800m pace and the achievable marathon pace. On the one hand, it's reassuring to know that I seem to be in the ballpark for 3:15 or faster. On the other hand, it might have been better to do more marathon specific training.

Just wondering what others views are on this particular session, or speed training in general?

As you are doing your first marathon I would not say this is a great indicator of your time. All these speed indicators told me I would come close to a 3h marathon but on the day I could not run the 42k and came in closer to 4h.

I would say from my failures at the marathon the most important training you can do for tge marathon is the long run. Do it purposely slower than your marathon pace too so you are spending a lot of time on your feet. I ran my long runs too fast and also probably did not do enough millage too and which I think lead to my failure.

Yes speed work is important but because it is your first marathon I think your biggest challenge will be to run the 42k without stoping to walk big chunks.

Time on your feet on the long runs will count more to you on the day than a quicker long run, particularly as it is your first marathon and your body has never ran for that amount of time. if your last long run is 32k challenge yourself to run it over 2h45 instead of doing it quicker.