Marathon Improvers Thread.

Swashbuckler

ittakestwo wrote:

I would say from my failures at the marathon the most important training you can do for tge marathon is the long run. Do it purposely slower than your marathon pace too so you are spending a lot of time on your feet. I ran my long runs too fast and also probably did not do enough millage too and which I think lead to my failure.

Out of interest what plan did you use for your first and what was peak mileage?

Does someone need to go through a couple of marathon cycles for those calculators to be any way accurate?

zulutango

How did you folks get on with your long runs at the weekend? The weather yesterday was horrendous where I am but I didn't want to defer so I headed out with a rain jacket. At times the wind was so strong that it took a lot of effort to move into it. I can see on my garmin that my heart rate went way up in those situations even though the pace was easy. I also misjudged the amount of water I'd need and ended up getting dehydrated and unable to continue, except by walking the last 2km, dizzy and nauseous and disoriented. It's amazing how quickly the wheels can come off. I had been feeling pretty good when I ran out of water, but within 3km I was in bits, hardly able to move forward. Then the conditions worsened and I wasn't able to keep warm and I reckon I was mildly hypothermic for good measure! All in all, it was a bit of an ordeal but a worthwhile lesson nonetheless.

Slow_Runner

zulutango wrote: »

How did you folks get on with your long runs at the weekend? The weather yesterday was horrendous where I am but I didn't want to defer so I headed out with a rain jacket. At times the wind was so strong that it took a lot of effort to move into it. I can see on my garmin that my heart rate went way up in those situations even though the pace was easy. I also misjudged the amount of water I'd need and ended up getting dehydrated and unable to continue, except by walking the last 2km, dizzy and nauseous and disoriented. It's amazing how quickly the wheels can come off. I had been feeling pretty good when I ran out of water, but within 3km I was in bits, hardly able to move forward. Then the conditions worsened and I wasn't able to keep warm and I reckon I was mildly hypothermic for good measure! All in all, it was a bit of an ordeal but a worthwhile lesson nonetheless.

These are the runs that stand to you - every marathon training cycle I've had at least 1 run like this, either horrendous weather or body not up to the task. When you're feeling the pressure during the marathon think back to this run and use it as motivation - you've been through tough runs before, marathon is just another run

denis b

Slow_Runner wrote: »

These are the runs that stand to you - every marathon training cycle I've had at least 1 run like this, either horrendous weather or body not up to the task. When you're feeling the pressure during the marathon think back to this run and use it as motivation - you've been through tough runs before, marathon is just another run

I think it is probably "quite the norm" to go through a marathon with at least one run that knocks you for six, whatever the reason. I am just drawing off my own limited experience but this cycle I was left fairly flumoxxed after a 11km and 13km run in particular. Perhaps the jacket increased your perspiration so that you dehydrated quicker. I do know that dehydration can quickly lead to the onset of hypothermia when you are subject to the elements, which you were. Our bodies signal "challenged" quite quickly.

I suppose our reaction to the bad day can only help. Take nothing for granted and be prepared to change, if need be.

I got out out early yesterday and was spared the worst but I won't have the liberty of starting when I like on DCM Day .

Johnny_Fontane

zulutango wrote: »

How did you folks get on with your long runs at the weekend? The weather yesterday was horrendous where I am but I didn't want to defer so I headed out with a rain jacket. At times the wind was so strong that it took a lot of effort to move into it. I can see on my garmin that my heart rate went way up in those situations even though the pace was easy. I also misjudged the amount of water I'd need and ended up getting dehydrated and unable to continue, except by walking the last 2km, dizzy and nauseous and disoriented. It's amazing how quickly the wheels can come off. I had been feeling pretty good when I ran out of water, but within 3km I was in bits, hardly able to move forward. Then the conditions worsened and I wasn't able to keep warm and I reckon I was mildly hypothermic for good measure! All in all, it was a bit of an ordeal but a worthwhile lesson nonetheless.

I was out in this yesterday from about 6pm - 8.40pm, ran out to Howth (downwind), touched the lighthouse and ran back (29.5km in total). It was absolute murder. Just went out with tshirt, pretty cold alright, but manageable. Had severe tummy aches at about 22km. quick visit to dollymount strand and im back on track (my first paula radcliffe moment just about avoided). The wind coming back was unbelievable, managed to get in ok but the last 5km from the Bay restaurant was literally head down and just go through the motions. Toughest run I have ever done, but delighted I experienced conditions like that. Extra bonus of being clapped by a number of people out in Howth who were shielding behind a wall during monsoon rain/galeforce winds. Like alot of people on here, I dont bring water with me, but could have probably done with some.

Moral of the story: always bring a facecloth.

conti

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

I was out in this yesterday from about 6pm - 8.40pm, ran out to Howth (downwind), touched the lighthouse and ran back (29.5km in total). It was absolute murder. Just went out with tshirt, pretty cold alright, but manageable. Had severe tummy aches at about 22km. quick visit to dollymount strand and im back on track (my first paula radcliffe moment just about avoided). The wind coming back was unbelievable, managed to get in ok but the last 5km from the Bay restaurant was literally head down and just go through the motions. Toughest run I have ever done, but delighted I experienced conditions like that. Extra bonus of being clapped by a number of people out in Howth who were shielding behind a wall during monsoon rain/galeforce winds. Like alot of people on here, I dont bring water with me, but could have probably done with some.

Moral of the story: always bring a facecloth.

Exact same happened to me last Sunday morning on my way to Howth. Most of my energy went towards staying upright and not getting blown over by the unchallenged coastal wind. Toughest run I ever had and bonked hard at 29th km (run was supposed to be 35). Luckily I was on my way back and was in Fairview so I just popped into spar to get some sugar in me for the strength to hobble home. Soaked to the bone I was, and all my electronics drenched. Thankfully Jaybird earphones came back to life after I let them dry out.

If that wasn't bad enough..... Gross warning!

I was wearing my yellow Longford marathon technical top and didn't realise until I got home – after walking up Clonliffe road through crowds making their way to the all-Ireland final – I found it had a trail of blood from my chest to my waste, somehow my one of my nips had been bleeding. Probably from constant readjusting my HRM as it kept slipping down. Never saw my girlfriend laugh that hard before.

Johnny_Fontane

conti wrote: »

Exact same happened to me last Sunday morning on my way to Howth. Most of my energy went towards staying upright and not getting blown over by the unchallenged coastal wind. Toughest run I ever had and bonked hard at 29th km (run was supposed to be 35). Luckily I was on my way back and was in Fairview so I just popped into spar to get some sugar in me for the strength to hobble home. Soaked to the bone I was, and all my electronics drenched. Thankfully Jaybird earphones came back to life after I let them dry out.

If that wasn't bad enough..... Gross warning!

I was wearing my yellow Longford marathon technical top and didn't realise until I got home – after walking up Clonliffe road through crowds making their way to the all-Ireland final – I found it had a trail of blood from my chest to my waste, somehow my one of my nips had been bleeding. Probably from constant readjusting my HRM as it kept slipping down. Never saw my girlfriend laugh that hard before.

redefining wearable tech

The Black Oil

Have a few Wednesday runs in October that are '2x30 min tempo w/ 5 min jog between', etc.

Jog - at easy?

Unthought Known

The Black Oil wrote: »

Have a few Wednesday runs in October that are '2x30 min tempo w/ 5 min jog between', etc.

Jog - at easy?

I'd normally take the jog at recovery pace.

Kennyg71

The Black Oil wrote: »

Have a few Wednesday runs in October that are '2x30 min tempo w/ 5 min jog between', etc.

Jog - at easy?

Just jog as easy as you run recovery run then build slowly back to tempo pace.

ger664

The Black Oil wrote: »

Have a few Wednesday runs in October that are '2x30 min tempo w/ 5 min jog between', etc.

Jog - at easy?

I would be the opposite and would jog at steady pace (MP +~30sec/mile)

hot buttered scones

I've been plugging away at P+D up to 55. Most runs have gone well, bar one or two where I was affected by the heat, so I'm not too concerned about that. DCM is only 7 weeks away now and to be honest it's sort of crept up on me. I would say that, overall, I've found this training block easier than any of my previous ones. Yes I'm still tired, but not by as much. My long runs have gone well. I still had a bit of trouble with some of the LT sessions, but they still went better than last year. My appetite isn't as voracious as it has been in the past. I've kept injury free (fingers crossed) barring a bit of tightness here and there that a sports massage sorted out - only one physio visit this training block. So, me being me, I have to worry about something as the big event looms on the horizon.

What's been creeping into my mind the last week and what I can't figure out is this - is it going to well? Am I being complacent and not training hard enough? Or is just that I'm finally starting to get the hang of this - easy days easy, hard days hard -and for once I'm training at the appropriate level without absolutely flogging myself.

I'm fully aware that this is probably just a bit of maranoia, but I'd be interested to hear people's opinions. In particular - was there one training block where you felt you'd finally gotten the balance right and how did the subsequent marathon go for you?

jaggiebunnet

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I've been plugging away at P+D up to 55. Most runs have gone well, bar one or two where I was affected by the heat, so I'm not too concerned about that. DCM is only 7 weeks away now and to be honest it's sort of crept up on me. I would say that, overall, I've found this training block easier than any of my previous ones. Yes I'm still tired, but not by as much. My long runs have gone well. I still had a bit of trouble with some of the LT sessions, but they still went better than last year. My appetite isn't as voracious as it has been in the past. I've kept injury free (fingers crossed) barring a bit of tightness here and there that a sports massage sorted out - only one physio visit this training block. So, me being me, I have to worry about something as the big event looms on the horizon.

What's been creeping into my mind the last week and what I can't figure out is this - is it going to well? Am I being complacent and not training hard enough? Or is just that I'm finally starting to get the hang of this - easy days easy, hard days hard -and for once I'm training at the appropriate level without absolutely flogging myself.

I'm fully aware that this is probably just a bit of maranoia, but I'd be interested to hear people's opinions. In particular - was there one training block where you felt you'd finally gotten the balance right and how did the subsequent marathon go for you?

I could have written that myself - was beginning to question myself if I was taking the whole thing too easy and that is why I am getting on ok and staying pretty much injury free. On the same plan too!

Testosterscone

The Black Oil wrote: »

Have a few Wednesday runs in October that are '2x30 min tempo w/ 5 min jog between', etc.

Jog - at easy?

Jog is designed here as easy pace rather than recovery which would be slower than normal easy pace. You want to spend around the first few min here getting up to right HR/Effort levels and then maintaining that early stages should feel comfortable and slowly get a little more uncomfortable as the session rolls on

Slow_Runner

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I've been plugging away at P+D up to 55. Most runs have gone well, bar one or two where I was affected by the heat, so I'm not too concerned about that. DCM is only 7 weeks away now and to be honest it's sort of crept up on me. I would say that, overall, I've found this training block easier than any of my previous ones. Yes I'm still tired, but not by as much. My long runs have gone well. I still had a bit of trouble with some of the LT sessions, but they still went better than last year. My appetite isn't as voracious as it has been in the past. I've kept injury free (fingers crossed) barring a bit of tightness here and there that a sports massage sorted out - only one physio visit this training block. So, me being me, I have to worry about something as the big event looms on the horizon.

What's been creeping into my mind the last week and what I can't figure out is this - is it going to well? Am I being complacent and not training hard enough? Or is just that I'm finally starting to get the hang of this - easy days easy, hard days hard -and for once I'm training at the appropriate level without absolutely flogging myself.

I'm fully aware that this is probably just a bit of maranoia, but I'd be interested to hear people's opinions. In particular - was there one training block where you felt you'd finally gotten the balance right and how did the subsequent marathon go for you?

Bit early for taper madness .  I had a really good training block for Rotterdam this year - did not miss a single run through the whole thing and body only started to tire the last 2 weeks of peak training. My PB was 3:53 however I tool a huge chunk off my 10 mile (74-70 min) and HM (1:38 - 1:34) times so went for a 3:30.
On the day I struggled home in 3:42 - reasons for this were:
Only traveled over on the day before the race so a LOT of walking - in the airport, catching trains, expo - ended up walking nearly 20000 steps!! Feet were throbbing when I went to bed!
It was bloody roasting - 19C at the start line rising to 24C by halfway. Bang on pace up to 17 mile. Struggled from 18 miles but didn't walk any of it so consider it a success.
Thinking back if I went out at 3:40 pace I would have probably come in 3:38-3:39 but in the back of my mind would thinking could I have got 3:30 so no regrets - it was still a massive pb.
I use the tune up races to tell me where I'm at - if you're struggling in them then you're being complacent, if not the you're on track. Better to be under-trained than over-trained.

quick feet

Slow_Runner wrote: »

Bit early for taper madness .  I had a really good training block for Rotterdam this year - did not miss a single run through the whole thing and body only started to tire the last 2 weeks of peak training. My PB was 3:53 however I tool a huge chunk off my 10 mile (74-70 min) and HM (1:38 - 1:34) times so went for a 3:30.
On the day I struggled home in 3:42 - reasons for this were:
Only traveled over on the day before the race so a LOT of walking - in the airport, catching trains, expo - ended up walking nearly 20000 steps!! Feet were throbbing when I went to bed!
It was bloody roasting - 19C at the start line rising to 24C by halfway. Bang on pace up to 17 mile. Struggled from 18 miles but didn't walk any of it so consider it a success.
Thinking back if I went out at 3:40 pace I would have probably come in 3:38-3:39 but in the back of my mind would thinking could I have got 3:30 so no regrets - it was still a massive pb.
I use the tune up races to tell me where I'm at - if you're struggling in them then you're being complacent, if not the you're on track. Better to be under-trained than over-trained.

Similar to yourselves I'm following the p+d 12 week plan up to 55..doing the berlin marathon in 2 weeks time, only felt tired the last 10 days and have hit most paces on sessions, only missed 1 recovery run..ive kept easy - easy/ hard - hard, what I have noticed is that there is a lack on m.p miles or maybe I'm over analysing everything and self doubt is kicking in..to put a positive spin on things I've improved my 10mile pb/only just missed out on 10k pb after running 16miles the day before and ran the r'n'r half comfortably at pmp...so i think I'm in better shape than this time last year, running faster/stronger, let's hope on the day it all comes together..

Unthought Known

So, Dublin HM is coming up. For those following the meno' plan, for DCM, is it recommended to run this as a session or to race it? I'd originally set my plan up to race it, but I'm leaning towards easing off to concentrate on the numerous MP sessions that are left in the plan.
For the Irish 3/4 on 8th Oct I'm planning 10m easy then the 2nd half at MP (as per plan).

Kennyg71

Unthought Known wrote: »

So, Dublin HM is coming up. For those following the meno' plan, for DCM, is it recommended to run this as a session or to race it? I'd originally set my plan up to race it, but I'm leaning towards easing off to concentrate on the numerous MP sessions that are left in the plan.
For the Irish 3/4 on 8th Oct I'm planning 10m easy then the 2nd half at MP (as per plan).

Meno plan has this as a race, that's why there was a couple of weeks where you had 2 x 2 & 4x 2 at HMP sessions, but no harm in doing as MP session, I am leaning more that way myself at the moment, I would say really depends on how fit you are and how your recovering generally after each session.

Unthought Known

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Meno plan has this as a race, that's why there was a couple of weeks where you had 2 x 2 & 4x 2 at HMP sessions, but no harm in doing as MP session, I am leaning more that way myself at the moment, I would say really depends on how fit you are and how your recovering generally after each session.

Thanks. I'm recovering way better than I expected from the sessions. Part of me wants to push it to see where I am, but not sure I want to risk too much in the first half of the race, given the profile.

Henry42

Might as well share.

I'm gearing up to DCM in a few weeks, which will be my fourth marathon - my times having gone from 4.02 to 3.59 to 3.34 on my previous attempts, and my training gotten more intense each time.

My other PBs are:
5k: 20.20
10: 43.01
Half: 1.36.00

Having run the Great North last weekend (which is the half PB above) I'm doing the Belfast Half this week. And then I'm in for three really tough weeks - 80km, 90km and 100km - before the taper. My highest mileage on the last training cycle, and the highest so far on this one was 75km.
So I'm hoping that this isn't pushing myself too hard, and I'm hoping it gets me in shape for something approaching 3 hours 20 minutes in Dublin. Doable?

ger664

Henry42 wrote: »

Might as well share.

I'm gearing up to DCM in a few weeks, which will be my fourth marathon - my times having gone from 4.02 to 3.59 to 3.34 on my previous attempts, and my training gotten more intense each time.

My other PBs are:
5k: 20.20
10: 43.01
Half: 1.36.00

Having run the Great North last weekend (which is the half PB above) I'm doing the Belfast Half this week. And then I'm in for three really tough weeks - 80km, 90km and 100km - before the taper. My highest mileage on the last training cycle, and the highest so far on this one was 75km.
So I'm hoping that this isn't pushing myself too hard, and I'm hoping it gets me in shape for something approaching 3 hours 20 minutes in Dublin. Doable?

You are knocking on the door of 3:20 with those times. Depends on how fresh your where going into the half last week ? As it was in the middle of a training cycle I think you will improve enough when you recover in the taper to get 3:20

Eric the Eagle

Henry42 wrote: »

Might as well share.

I'm gearing up to DCM in a few weeks, which will be my fourth marathon - my times having gone from 4.02 to 3.59 to 3.34 on my previous attempts, and my training gotten more intense each time.

My other PBs are:
5k: 20.20
10: 43.01
Half: 1.36.00

Having run the Great North last weekend (which is the half PB above) I'm doing the Belfast Half this week. And then I'm in for three really tough weeks - 80km, 90km and 100km - before the taper. My highest mileage on the last training cycle, and the highest so far on this one was 75km.
So I'm hoping that this isn't pushing myself too hard, and I'm hoping it gets me in shape for something approaching 3 hours 20 minutes in Dublin. Doable?

In practically the same situation. DCM will be 4th marathon and PBs are all more or less the same as yours.

Was hoping to target 3:20 for DCM this year but am freaking out now looking at your mileage in training!!

Due to life constraints I can't get out more than 4 times a week and my weekly mileage will only average out at about 30 miles a week if things go well over the last part of training, my peak will be 40 miles.

Starting to think I won't be able for 3:20...

Henry42

ger664 wrote: »

You are knocking on the door of 3:20 with those times. Depends on how fresh your where going into the half last week ? As it was in the middle of a training cycle I think you will improve enough when you recover in the taper to get 3:20

I took it fairly easy in the days leading up so I was fairly fresh and it is an easy course. But I started in too slow a pace group and got boxed in at the start, while finding it difficult to get a rhythm with needing to dodge the crowds. So I'm confident that I'm actually faster than that right now.

I think I'm still a little bit off my target but I've found that I respond well to hard training, and these will be the hardest three weeks I've ever done. I'm fearing it a little bit.

Itziger

Henry42 wrote: »

Might as well share.

I'm gearing up to DCM in a few weeks, which will be my fourth marathon - my times having gone from 4.02 to 3.59 to 3.34 on my previous attempts, and my training gotten more intense each time.

My other PBs are:
5k: 20.20
10: 43.01
Half: 1.36.00

Having run the Great North last weekend (which is the half PB above) I'm doing the Belfast Half this week. And then I'm in for three really tough weeks - 80km, 90km and 100km - before the taper. My highest mileage on the last training cycle, and the highest so far on this one was 75km.
So I'm hoping that this isn't pushing myself too hard, and I'm hoping it gets me in shape for something approaching 3 hours 20 minutes in Dublin. Doable?

You'd want to be a bit careful in the next month. You've just done a Half PB, now you're doing another one and then 3 tough weeks. I don't really get why you'd do 2 Half marathons back to back in the middle of training. Just monitor how the body is feeling these coming weeks. You're in a good place, you don't want to ruin it.

clickerquicklic

Henry42 wrote: »

Might as well share.

I'm gearing up to DCM in a few weeks, which will be my fourth marathon - my times having gone from 4.02 to 3.59 to 3.34 on my previous attempts, and my training gotten more intense each time.

My other PBs are:
5k: 20.20
10: 43.01
Half: 1.36.00

Having run the Great North last weekend (which is the half PB above) I'm doing the Belfast Half this week. And then I'm in for three really tough weeks - 80km, 90km and 100km - before the taper. My highest mileage on the last training cycle, and the highest so far on this one was 75km.
So I'm hoping that this isn't pushing myself too hard, and I'm hoping it gets me in shape for something approaching 3 hours 20 minutes in Dublin. Doable?

I haven't got 4 marathons behind me but aiming for 3.20 myself at Dublin. I think its going to be tight for me to run 3.20 and if I can't run 1.30 at Dublin half marathon I'll be going with the 3.30 pacers.

With a 1.36 half I wouldn't be confident of 3.20. But thats just because I've read threads here and seen comparison half marathon to marathon times , doubling your half marathon time and adding 20 minutes seems accurate.

More power to you if you can do it though , i guess your running history and experience will be a big help. Best of luck.

ligerdub

clickerquicklic wrote:

With a 1.36 half I wouldn't be confident of 3.20. But thats just because I've read threads here and seen comparison half marathon to marathon times , doubling your half marathon time and adding 20 minutes seems accurate.

I did a 1.36 half flat-out then a just over 3.20 marathon with a bit left in the tank. Granted the marathon conditions were ideal. I wouldn't rule it out. If you prepare and have a good day you can do it.

boydkev

I'm still a bit all over the place for this weekend. Plan is Saturday 9-13 tune up race, Sunday 17 Long run. But I am planning on doing a half on Sunday with 4 extra miles. What do you think I should do on Saturday.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

I'm still a bit all over the place for this weekend. Plan is Saturday 9-13 tune up race, Sunday 17 Long run. But I am planning on doing a half on Sunday with 4 extra miles. What do you think I should do on Saturday.

P+D?? What peak mileage? I'm doing the up to 55 plan. 8k-15k race, 9-13 miles total for the day Saturday, 17 long Sunday.

Instead I'm resting today, doing today's run (5 miles with 6x100m strides) tomorrow, and racing the half Sunday. On Sunday I'll do a warmup and cool down but I;m not worried about hitting 17 miles total.

boydkev

Yea p&d 55 18 week, I was thinking of something like that but did 5 recovery this morning, so maybe if I do 7 easy tomorrow and then race Sunday with extra.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

Yea p&d 55 18 week, I was thinking of something like that but did 5 recovery this morning, so maybe if I do 7 easy tomorrow and then race Sunday with extra.

They way I'm looking at it is I'm racing the half which is not part of the plan, so I'm not going to stress about total mileage this week. I may not do the full 5 in the morning, and I'll take it very easy on the strides. All you want tomorrow is a bit of a leg loosener if your going to race the half all out.