Marathon Improvers Thread.

Kennyg71

Plenty of time to recover. As long as I run the following Wednesday easy I should be ok for the 22 miler o=the following Sunday.[/QUOTE]
Was feeling better by Sunday myself so knocked PMP on head, I think you'll hit 1.45 easily enough. Remember running with 1.50 pacers for 3 miles on my first half and then easing out ahead and finished just under 1.45, I think your probably fitter than I was then. Best luck with race.

Unthought Known

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Was feeling better by Sunday myself so knocked PMP on head, I think you'll hit 1.45 easily enough. Remember running with 1.50 pacers for 3 miles on my first half and then easing out ahead and finished just under 1.45, I think your probably fitter than I was then. Best luck with race.

Thanks.
Funny, I was thinking the exact same plan during tonight's run. I'll see how I'm handling the drag after a few miles then maybe pick it up a bit. The first half profile is very similar to my run home from work so I should really be able to handle it.

hot buttered scones

I thought it was cross posting this from El Caballo in the Novices thread, in case people here didn't see it. I hope he doesn't mind.

El Caballo wrote: »

What you have to understand here is that the first 20 miles of a marathon are not a race scenario. The trick in the marathon is managing all the urges that are telling you "This is too slow". A lesson I've learned through my own experiences and the experiences of many others on forums I've visited is that round numbers are usually the cause of marathon problems, people tend to stretch themselves to reach the next number up. I understand that you have to have goals but what is wrong with a 3:13 or 3:17 marathon?

Also, once people have committed to a marathon goal weeks before a race, they seem intent on targeting that goal whatever the circumstances on Marathon day whatever the weather or circumstances.

The first marathon I properly trained for, I went into it with a 1:26:26 PB about 5 weeks before and targeted 3:10. I had a boatload of MP miles under my belt and running 4:30's during the race felt like I was out on an evening recovery run. By 22 miles, running 5.15's felt like dragging a grand piano up Mont Blanc even though just 5 weeks earlier, I was clicking off 3:50's in the last few kilometres of a half marathon.

Dublin is a tough course, especially the first half which will excessively dig into your fuel reserves if you are not careful and chasing a time which may be out of reach. This is the marathons greatest trick, it lulls you into a false sense of security over the early miles.

What if the weather isn't ideal on race day? I went into Dublin 2014 targeting a sub-3. I was borderline at best and had comfortably ran 30k at sub-3 pace in training. The morning of the race turned out to be exceptionally humid but I was so focused on that round number that I ended up going for it anyway and was walking a mile after going through halfway in 1:30 despite running through 13.1 Miles in 1:28 during the 30k workout just a few weeks earlier.

The marathon rewards discipline more than anything else. If you think you will be in shape to run 3:10, what's wrong with going out in 1:38/9 as you should be able to run the second half well under 1:35 and record a 3:12/13ish time that way but will have the benefit of feeling it out after halfway and accessing if you can. A time like that is a hell of a performance for a first proper marathon. You will have plenty of opportunities after this to run faster and I have no doubt you will but this should be treated as a learning experience that you can take forward to your next marathon as you will be much more experienced on how you cope with the distance.

I'm sorry to anyone if this comes across as a fear mongering post, that is not my intention but just sharing the thoughts of someone who has made a lot of mistakes during the race.

El Caballo

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I thought it was cross posting this from El Caballo in the Novices thread, in case people here didn't see it. I hope he doesn't mind.

Ha, no worries!

hot buttered scones

hot buttered scones wrote:

I thought it was cross posting this from El Caballo in the Novices thread, in case people here didn't see it. I hope he doesn't mind.

Ffs I really need to read my posts before posting. This should read - actually I'm not quite sure what this should read. Something like "I thought this was a really good post. Cross posting etc..." . And thanks El Caballo!

hot buttered scones

I had to do a bit of forward planning today - arranging things with the better half around work and the kids etc, and of course I had my combined training plan/work schedule open on the monitor trying to figure things out. As I read down through the remaining weeks of the plan, I got the feeling that I was on the home straight and there wasn't much more hard work to be done. October's nearly here!! I'm starting to get excited for this now. :D

Henry42

Into peak weeks of training. 80km last week. 90km target this week, starting tonight with about 13.5k.
Physically I feel okay. Mentally and emotionally this is a slog. Normal sleep doesn't seem to cut it. I need more.

boydkev

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I had to do a bit of forward planning today - arranging things with the better half around work and the kids etc, and of course I had my combined training plan/work schedule open on the monitor trying to figure things out. As I read down through the remaining weeks of the plan, I got the feeling that I was on the home straight and there wasn't much more hard work to be done. October's nearly here!! I'm starting to get excited for this now. :D

I was thinking the same until i looked at the remaining weeks of the plan, There is still quite a few tough VO2 Max sessions and one 20 mile Long run which is 3 weeks out from race day.(Seems very close to do a 20, but i believe in the plan).
Looking forward to the cork-cobh which i will be doing at MP with a few miles warm up, Which will be a good indication of where i am.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

I was thinking the same until i looked at the remaining weeks of the plan, There is still quite a few tough VO2 Max sessions and one 20 mile Long run which is 3 weeks out from race day.(Seems very close to do a 20, but i believe in the plan).
Looking forward to the cork-cobh which i will be doing at MP with a few miles warm up, Which will be a good indication of where i am.

Even though I find the VO2 max sessions hard, I like the change of pace and the variety from whats come before. I enjoy the 600s because there just short enough not to leave you wrecked. As for the 20 miler - they've gone well for me this time around so there's no fear there. I'm looking forward to the tune up races as well. Enjoy Cork to Cobh and save a bit for the hills at the end! I'd do it myself as a long run, but I'm working unfortunately.
I've done this plan before I suppose so I know what to expect from the tough sessions, so I suppose that helps.

Baxtardo

boydkev wrote: »

I was thinking the same until i looked at the remaining weeks of the plan, There is still quite a few tough VO2 Max sessions and one 20 mile Long run which is 3 weeks out from race day.(Seems very close to do a 20, but i believe in the plan).
Looking forward to the cork-cobh which i will be doing at MP with a few miles warm up, Which will be a good indication of where i am.

Just realised I've been one week out all along with my plan.

So I just lost a week.

Damn.

hot buttered scones

Baxtardo wrote: »

Just realised I've been one week out all along with my plan.

So I just lost a week.

Damn.

What's on your plan for this week? Remember race week is week 0 on the P+D plan.

Baxtardo

hot buttered scones wrote: »

What's on your plan for this week? Remember race week is week 0 on the P+D plan.

Yes that's it, I hadn't noticed and had counted the last week as week 1. Oh well!

hot buttered scones

Baxtardo wrote: »

Yes that's it, I hadn't noticed and had counted the last week as week 1. Oh well!

So - your doing the week with 18 with 14@MP as the long run this week? I'd maybe skip next week and go onto the the week with the last 20 miler.

jaggiebunnet

Baxtardo wrote: »

Just realised I've been one week out all along with my plan.

So I just lost a week.

Damn.

Just had that same panic moment about 5 minutes ago before realising I was ok. Amazing how easy it can happen.

Baxtardo

hot buttered scones wrote: »

So - your doing the week with 18 with 14@MP as the long run this week? I'd maybe skip next week and go onto the the week with the last 20 miler.

Yes that's it! I'll pick two of the weeks with the most miles to try and counter it a bit.

I was thinking of doing the 18 w/14 MP as a 20 w/ 14 MP this week, then would be doing another 20 mile the week after. Is it a bit much to do 2 x 20 miles in a row? Reason being that I've found the 20 miles haven't been taking too much out of me and I find them good as a confidence boost (along with trying to maximise miles before the taper)

hot buttered scones

Baxtardo wrote:

I was thinking of doing the 18 w/14 MP as a 20 w/ 14 MP this week, then would be doing another 20 mile the week after. Is it a bit much to do 2 x 20 miles in a row? Reason being that I've found the 20 miles haven't been taking too much out of me and I find them good as a confidence boost (along with trying to maximise miles before the taper)

I wouldn't be too hung up on getting 2x20 in. 18 w/14 MP is a big enough session. If you are hell bent on in it then do a 4 mile warm up, 14 MP and if you feel like it a 2 mile cool down. What about tune up races? What have you planned?

Wubble Wubble

15 x 400m at 5k pace (95-100s) with 200m recs, from the Asics sub 3:30 plan, in the bag. I was playing with fire taking these on two days after a HM, and it felt really tough mentally and physically at times, but I got through and feel delighted that I managed it. Best of luck to anyone else giving it a go.

Baxtardo

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I wouldn't be too hung up on getting 2x20 in. 18 w/14 MP is a big enough session. If you are hell bent on in it then do a 4 mile warm up, 14 MP and if you feel like it a 2 mile cool down. What about tune up races? What have you planned?

I do not have any organised race planned for them - was going to do a solo race pace run for each (have a wedding on one of the days so will have to do a bit of juggling around). The Dublin half last weekend was the first tune up race (or so I thought, it was actually a week out as we now understand :pac: )

hot buttered scones

Baxtardo wrote:

I do not have any organised race planned for them - was going to do a solo race pace run for each (have a wedding on one of the days so will have to do a bit of juggling around). The Dublin half last weekend was the first tune up race (or so I thought, it was actually a week out as we now understand )

Well one of them is this week, so your skipping that. The next scheduled one is on October 14th (8k to 10k) - which happens to be the same day as the Donadea 10k. Check your dates again - that wedding may not clash after all.

Unthought Known

Quick question about the next couple of weeks of the meno' plan, mainly about whether I'm doing anything silly in changing a run or two. My plan for the next 2 weeks (up to the taper) is:

Week|Tues|Weds|Thu|Sat|Sun
25/9|7m easy|14m with 10m MP|3-5m rec|5m easy|22m easy
2/10|7m easy|14m with 10m alt MP+15/MP-15|3-5m rec|5m easy|3/4 marathon (1m w/u, 10m easy, 9.6m MP, 1m c/d).
9/10|3-5m rec|14m MP|||

I raced the HM on Saturday. Although I feel ok to do the session tomorrow, I'm planning on going out Saturday night so was thinking of just an easy run tomorrow and swapping the weekend runs.

Also wondering about the 3/4. There's an option in the original plan to run the 22m on that day as a steady run (4-5% slower than MP). Any opinions greatly appreciated.

Week|Tues|Weds|Thu|Sat|Sun
25/9|7m easy|10-12m easy|3-5m rec|22m easy|5m easy
2/10|7m easy|14m with 10m alt MP+15/MP-15|3-5m rec|5m easy|3/4 marathon (1m w/u, 10m easy, 9.6m MP, 1m c/d).
9/10|3-5m rec|14m MP|||

hot buttered scones

Unthought Known wrote: »

Quick question about the next couple of weeks of the meno' plan, mainly about whether I'm doing anything silly in changing a run or two. My plan for the next 2 weeks (up to the taper) is:

Week|Tues|Weds|Thu|Sat|Sun
25/9|7m easy|14m with 10m MP|3-5m rec|5m easy|22m easy
2/10|7m easy|14m with 10m alt MP+15/MP-15|3-5m rec|5m easy|3/4 marathon (1m w/u, 10m easy, 9.6m MP, 1m c/d).
9/10|3-5m rec|14m MP|||

I raced the HM on Saturday. Although I feel ok to do the session tomorrow, I'm planning on going out Saturday night so was thinking of just an easy run tomorrow and swapping the weekend runs.

Also wondering about the 3/4. There's an option in the original plan to run the 22m on that day as a steady run (4-5% slower than MP). Any opinions greatly appreciated.

Week|Tues|Weds|Thu|Sat|Sun
25/9|7m easy|10-12m easy|3-5m rec|22m easy|5m easy
2/10|7m easy|14m with 10m alt MP+15/MP-15|3-5m rec|5m easy|3/4 marathon (1m w/u, 10m easy, 9.6m MP, 1m c/d).
9/10|3-5m rec|14m MP|||

I don't see an issue with switching the long run to Saturday this week.
For next week it a 22 mile with "stuff" - 22 miles steady is just one option. What you have there is another one of the options described. I'd say there's a few who have done the 3/4 for it in the past.

Singer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I don't see an issue with switching the long run to Saturday this week.
For next week it a 22 mile with "stuff" - 22 miles steady is just one option. What you have there is another one of the options described. I'd say there's a few who have done the 3/4 for it in the past.

Having followed meno last year, I found doing the 3/4 at steady a good thing to do on the day. Pace changes are a pain when nobody else around you is following your pace, better to go off at a consistent pace and keep it going with those around you. For the record, here's my pacing on the day.

Unthought Known

Singer wrote: »

Having followed meno last year, I found doing the 3/4 at steady a good thing to do on the day. Pace changes are a pain when nobody else around you is following your pace, better to go off at a consistent pace and keep it going with those around you. For the record, here's my pacing on the day.

Thanks. I was thinking that the easy part would be following the '4hr' pacers at around 9:40 pace, but I get what you're saying about changing pace.
Steady pace for me is around 9:10. Running that should give me more confidence than 9.6m MP.

By the way, that's some run! Must've been a massive confidence boost for the marathon.

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

15 x 400m at 5k pace (95-100s) with 200m recs, from the Asics sub 3:30 plan, in the bag.

Done this session last night...would'nt say it was easy but I was fit for it and it definately gives the confidence a boost.
I have followed this plan very closely and do think it is working.
Hard to believe just over 4 weeks to go...I am beginning to think about pace etc for on the day and it is wrecking my head. The general consensus seems to be the first half of DCM is harder than the second half - would you agree? Thinikng to go out bit slower than 3.30 pace and try to pick it up after halfway, but not sure how slow is too slow when you still want to achieve 3.30?
How do you plan to pace it yourself? Is there any parts of the course to be particularly weary off? How tough is the hills at miles 20-22...is there any other hills like this on the route? Is it fair to say the last 4miles are fairly flat?
Sorry for all the questions just that its getting close now and need to firm up race day strategy/pace.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

Done this session last night...would'nt say it was easy but I was fit for it and it definately gives the confidence a boost.
I have followed this plan very closely and do think it is working.
Hard to believe just over 4 weeks to go...I am beginning to think about pace etc for on the day and it is wrecking my head. The general consensus seems to be the first half of DCM is harder than the second half - would you agree? Thinikng to go out bit slower than 3.30 pace and try to pick it up after halfway, but not sure how slow is too slow when you still want to achieve 3.30?
How do you plan to pace it yourself? Is there any parts of the course to be particularly weary off? How tough is the hills at miles 20-22...is there any other hills like this on the route? Is it fair to say the last 4miles are fairly flat?
Sorry for all the questions just that its getting close now and need to firm up race day strategy/pace.

Yes, in the sense that there's a long steady drag from just before the 2 mile mark (James Joyce Bridge) to after the 7 mile mark in Castleknock. This is the highest point on the course. In addition, the steepest and toughest hill is at 10 miles, from Chapelizod under the N4 and up to Ballyfermot.

So true like that I suppose. Hills in the second half aren't as long or as steep, but you'll feel them more due to tiredness. From just before half way (Crumlin) to 15 miles (Walkinstown) is a long slow drag as well, usually into the wind. 20-22 is hard to judge as apart from general fatigue, the rolling hills in Clonskeagh are hard on the legs. Once you get over the so called Heartbreak Hill on Roebuck Road, it's all downhill or flat from there in.

As of now, I'm planning just to keep the pacers in sight for the first half, and then maybe move forward gradually if all the signs are positive. If you're already out of puff reaching Castleknock, it's going to be a long day.

Unthought Known

Aaaannnnndddddd another one.............

22 miles at my easy pace will be somewhere around 3.5 hours. Is there such a thing as too much time on your feet? I know this is a grey area, but just looking for points of view from those that have run 22 or those that stick to 20 or even 18?

fyi, on this plan so far I've run 2x20, 1x19, 2x18 runs and I've 2x22 left (1 of these is the 3/4 marathon so I'd need a w/u and c/d)

Thanks

RayCun

I think that's a good argument for sticking to 20 miles

Testosterscone

Unthought Known wrote: »

Aaaannnnndddddd another one.............

22 miles at my easy pace will be somewhere around 3.5 hours. Is there such a thing as too much time on your feet? I know this is a grey area, but just looking for points of view from those that have run 22 or those that stick to 20 or even 18?

fyi, on this plan so far I've run 2x20, 1x19, 2x18 runs and I've 2x22 left (1 of these is the 3/4 marathon so I'd need a w/u and c/d)

Thanks

Yes there is after 3 hours the risk of injury due to muscular fatigue greatly increases while the aerobic benefits plateau.

Personally I am more of a fan of a few more sustained efforts balanced with time on feet runs

Perhaps 17/18 at a more steady pace could be worth more aerobically (a shade slower than MP) or a progression run

Most of us simply don't run enough for our bodies to cope with that amount of time on our feet structurally.

Most plans emphasise too much on long run to detriment of the overall plan especially in the 3-5 hour ranges

Kennyg71

RayCun wrote: »

I think that's a good argument for sticking to 20 miles

+1 I'm sticking to 20 as well.

hot buttered scones

Conversely, I'm considering doing my last 20 as a 3 hour run - which will probably be something just over 21 miles. This is despite me previously stating that I think 20 miles in more than enough. This deviates from the plan. I'm also only running for about 10 minutes extra (provided all goes well of course).
I just feel fairly good at the moment and think I'd be able to handle better than previously. I just like the idea of rounding off this block with a 3 hour run. Slowing down the 20 would take me outside my pace ranges, so I don't want to do that. It would be more for a confidence (ego??) boost than anythong else.
Although I'd probably tell someone else asking this question to just stick to the plan and not jeopardise anything at this late stage.