Marathon Improvers Thread.

and still ricky villa

I've jumped on the Tailwind train
Doing intervals tonight and doubled over with stomach cramps.
I switched from a make it yourself maltodextrin/glucose mix to something pre mixed. Been drinking it the last few weeks. I wanted that little edge but wound up with the stomach from hell. I'm dairy intolerant so it stands to reason I'd react to other stuff.
If Tailwind doesn't sit well it'll be back to home mixing

Pink11

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I've jumped on the Tailwind train
Doing intervals tonight and doubled over with stomach cramps.
I switched from a make it yourself maltodextrin/glucose mix to something pre mixed. Been drinking it the last few weeks. I wanted that little edge but wound up with the stomach from hell. I'm dairy intolerant so it stands to reason I'd react to other stuff.
If Tailwind doesn't sit well it'll be back to home mixing

I have an illness that badly effects my stomach and wasn't able to take anything. This is the only thing that works, I feel like a new person so very grateful to everyone on here for recommending it as I had never heard of it.

It says it's 'free of wheat, gluten, soy and dairy. Suitable for vegetarians and vegans.' so I imagine you'll be fine. Best of luck with it/

OOnegative

Who’s running an Autumn marathon? Any goal times in mind yet?

Van.Bosch

OOnegative wrote: »

Who’s running an Autumn marathon? Any goal times in mind yet?

Amsterdam - target 4:00

Murph_D

Hamburg a possibility. < 3:20.

OOnegative

Murph_D wrote: »

Hamburg a possibility. < 3:20.

That’s Autumn 2019 I take it D?

Murph_D

OOnegative wrote: »

That’s Autumn 2019 I take it D?

I’m told it’s in April. :pac:

OOnegative

Murph_D wrote: »

I’m told it’s in April. :pac:

Get ya D.

Murph_D

OOnegative wrote: »

Get ya D.

Oops. Thought you said spring marathon!

martyboy48

Dublin < 3:10

Classic21

martyboy48 wrote: »

Dublin < 3:10

Good target, I will try to join you!

martyboy48

Classic21 wrote: »

Good target, I will try to join you!

You're going very well at the moment, it should be a breeze for you.
I see you are surrounding yourself with some top class runners on your long runs, some tasty faster finishes too...

I'd be glad of the company in Dublin, it will keep me from giving up at the first sign of a struggle ☺☺☺

OOnegative

martyboy48 wrote: »

You're going very well at the moment, it should be a breeze for you.
I see you are surrounding yourself with some top class runners on your long runs, some tasty faster finishes too...

I'd be glad of the company in Dublin, it will keep me from giving up at the first sign of a struggle ☺☺☺

Or first sign of a pub!!!

Classic21

martyboy48 wrote: »

You're going very well at the moment, it should be a breeze for you.
I see you are surrounding yourself with some top class runners on your long runs, some tasty faster finishes too...

I'd be glad of the company in Dublin, it will keep me from giving up at the first sign of a struggle ☺☺☺

Going OK but it’s early yet, we will see after Charleville.
Long runs are an eye opener. Each week a few more greyhounds are out. Hopefully the quick finishes will stand to me.
You are getting into a good vein of form too I see, we should be near each other in Dublin

OOnegative

Any build up races planned Marty?

Itziger

Hey, folks, ye want to improve your marathon times? Cool Youtube clip here of a fairly decent session. Admittedly the pace would probably have to be adjusted a bit. Ok, a lot. Like a couple of mins...... per rep!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHb2tbKoZR8

martyboy48

OOnegative wrote: »

Any build up races planned Marty?

I'm in for Charleville next week. Not 100% on how to approach it.
1. Go with sub 1:30 pace and be happy if it doesdn't take to much out of me.
2. Go at sub 1:28 pace and try hang on if/when I struggle.....

My problem is I don't really know where I'm at with HM distance plus the fact I will not be doing any real taper for it just an easy day Saturday....

I'll probably do my usual decision making on the start line.......

Will do the Galway bay 10k in Oct for a last blast......

boydkev

martyboy48 wrote: »

I'm in for Charleville next week. Not 100% on how to approach it.
1. Go with sub 1:30 pace and be happy if it doesdn't take to much out of me.
2. Go at sub 1:28 pace and try hang on if/when I struggle.....

My problem is I don't really know where I'm at with HM distance plus the fact I will not be doing any real taper for it just an easy day Saturday....

I am exactly the same, I might go with 1.30 pacers and see if i can push on after 10 miles.
I had a similar brain freeze leading up to the cork 10 miler and managed to get a 66min PB.

opus

boydkev wrote: »

I am exactly the same, I might go with 1.30 pacers and see if i can push on after 10 miles.
I had a similar brain freeze leading up to the cork 10 miler and managed to get a 66min PB.

Just saw a post on the event thread about a possible weather warning for Sunday so think best to decide on the start line!

martyboy48

Have decided to pull out of Charleville. Niggling knee problem has curtailed my running this week. I'm gonna take the weekend off totally and take it from there.
Hope to get going again next week...

Murph_D

Hard luck Marty.

More sambos for the rest of us. Cloud, meet silver lining. :pac:

Murph_D

1:34:23 for me at Charleville HM - quite an encouraging result after no specific HM training and only a few weeks into the (truncated) 10-week marathon schedule. It suggests to me that it might be worth having a more aggressive NY target in mind, although I won't make up my mind about that for a few weeks. Having consulted with some of my trusty consiglieri the consensus is that getting too marathon-optimistic on the basis of one decent half is dangerous. But we shall see how it goes...

imknackered

Hi all,

First post on this thread even though ive been following it for a while.

Just looking for some guidance on the start of DCM. I put my projected finish time as 3:29 intending on running with the 3:30 pacers and finishing just ahead of them, however i have now been put in wave 1 and the 3:30 pacers are in wave 2.

Training has gone well and i did a 33k training run 10 days ago in 5:05 pace and wasnt dead at the end of it (fastest km was km 30). I did the half marathon in 1:31 last weekend also.

Question is, should i stick to wave 1 and trust my own pacing (i train by myself and am used to pacing myself) or do i drop to wave 2 and stick to the safety of the pacers and let them do the hard work of pacing the marathon for me?

Any/all advice welcomed.

Itziger

Knackered, I think you're being very conservative with 3.30. Both the train run and the Half point to a better time than that. Now of course the marathon is littered with sob stories, as we all k ow. That said, you ran the Half at 4.17/18 pace per km if my Maths are right. Even if you add on 30 seconds to that you're at 4.48 which would give you 3.22.30. What do you think? An alternative would be jog along with the 3.30 bunch till halfway I suppose.

Murph_D

You have the option to drop back to wave 2, but I agree with Itziger that you appear more like a 3:20 runner assuming you have the endurance. Have you done many marathons previously, and what MP did you train at this time?

Sheep1978

I asked this on a different thread already but just thought I'd throw it here too in case anyone has any comments / suggestions:

Looking for some advice / thoughts with regards to tapering. Doing DCM and training was going pretty good up until 2 weeks ago. Hurt my back and have done nothing since, so 2 full weeks out. That only leaves me with 2 weeks until tap starts (and I have my brothers wedding this Fri and Sat!!)
Anyways, question is would doing longs runs (say 20,18,21) this Thursday, following Wednesday and the following Tuesday be ok.? Reducing the taper to approx. 2.5 weeks. I previously had 2 20 milers done and a max weekly mileage had been 57m. It may all be mute if the back doesn't hold up, but I'd just like to get an idea on thoughts and to get a plan in place. thanks

28064212

Sheep1978 wrote: »

I asked this on a different thread already but just thought I'd throw it here too in case anyone has any comments / suggestions:

Looking for some advice / thoughts with regards to tapering. Doing DCM and training was going pretty good up until 2 weeks ago. Hurt my back and have done nothing since, so 2 full weeks out. That only leaves me with 2 weeks until tap starts (and I have my brothers wedding this Fri and Sat!!)
Anyways, question is would doing longs runs (say 20,18,21) this Thursday, following Wednesday and the following Tuesday be ok.? Reducing the taper to approx. 2.5 weeks. I previously had 2 20 milers done and a max weekly mileage had been 57m. It may all be mute if the back doesn't hold up, but I'd just like to get an idea on thoughts and to get a plan in place. thanks

After two weeks of no training, carrying an injury that may or may not be healed, you want to jump straight into a 20 mile run?

Sheep1978

28064212 wrote: »

After two weeks of no training, carrying an injury that may or may not be healed, you want to jump straight into a 20 mile run?

Sorry I've done some smaller runs the last 2 evenings with no reaction. But from the Rathoath half on the 08th, I did nothing up until Monday evening. Am kind of thinking its getting too close not to get the long runs in.?

Murph_D

Sheep1978 wrote: »

Sorry I've done some smaller runs the last 2 evenings with no reaction. But from the Rathoath half on the 08th, I did nothing up until Monday evening. Am kind of thinking its getting too close not to get the long runs in.?

It's impossible to answer your question adequately without more knowledge of your running history, average mileage etc. etc. But it's generally a bad idea to chase things when your schedule gets out of whack. You should try to transition back into where you would have been, taking account of the reduced fitness after two weeks out. If you have a couple of 20 milers in the bag already I wouldn't be too pushed about needing two more.

boydkev

After a good Half PB in charleville 1.28.20 i think i will change my plan for DCM and aim for 3.15 from a previous aim of 3.20-2.25.
Felt ok at the pace for the half but last 2 miles were tough and this is off a good cork city 10 miler in 66 mins.
Training for DCM has been going well did 22 miles a few weeks ago at a average pace of 8.05 and felt really good during all 22 miles.
So i might try and run COrk to Cobh at marathon pace for a 3.15 marathon and see how are i feel, Will this give me a good indication?

Singer

boydkev wrote: »

After a good Half PB in charleville 1.28.20 i think i will change my plan for DCM and aim for 3.15 from a previous aim of 3.20-2.25.
Felt ok at the pace for the half but last 2 miles were tough and this is off a good cork city 10 miler in 66 mins.
Training for DCM has been going well did 22 miles a few weeks ago at a average pace of 8.05 and felt really good during all 22 miles.
So i might try and run COrk to Cobh at marathon pace for a 3.15 marathon and see how are i feel, Will this give me a good indication?

Sounds like you're in the right type of shape for a go at 3:15.

15@MP seems a bit excessive... you could think about doing the last 10@MP and run the first 5 at easy/steady, or 2 easy and then 13@MP. What else are you doing during the week before/after?

ittakestwo

Sheep1978 wrote: »

I asked this on a different thread already but just thought I'd throw it here too in case anyone has any comments / suggestions:

Looking for some advice / thoughts with regards to tapering. Doing DCM and training was going pretty good up until 2 weeks ago. Hurt my back and have done nothing since, so 2 full weeks out. That only leaves me with 2 weeks until tap starts (and I have my brothers wedding this Fri and Sat!!)
Anyways, question is would doing longs runs (say 20,18,21) this Thursday, following Wednesday and the following Tuesday be ok.? Reducing the taper to approx. 2.5 weeks. I previously had 2 20 milers done and a max weekly mileage had been 57m. It may all be mute if the back doesn't hold up, but I'd just like to get an idea on thoughts and to get a plan in place. thanks

Most people do a 2 week taper. you could try a 2 week taper so your last long runs are not to close together.

BTW if you already 20 mile run under your belt I would not worry to much, Sometimes a period of allowing the body to repair and recover during a training season might help you. Best of luck with recovery.

imknackered

Itziger wrote: »

Knackered, I think you're being very conservative with 3.30. Both the train run and the Half point to a better time than that. Now of course the marathon is littered with sob stories, as we all k ow. That said, you ran the Half at 4.17/18 pace per km if my Maths are right. Even if you add on 30 seconds to that you're at 4.48 which would give you 3.22.30. What do you think? An alternative would be jog along with the 3.30 bunch till halfway I suppose.

Thanks Itziger, i have been aiming all year for a 3:30 so a comfortable 3:25-28 would feel like the safer option (bad experience in the 2011 marathon albeit hideously under-trained) Did another 33k at the weekend in 2:43 and was able to do last 5k at 4:30 pace just to train at running tired in advance of the marathon!

Murph_D wrote: »

You have the option to drop back to wave 2, but I agree with Itziger that you appear more like a 3:20 runner assuming you have the endurance. Have you done many marathons previously, and what MP did you train at this time?

Murph_D this is my 3rd marathon, did a 4:14 in 2011 when i had not trained nearly enough (1 18mile run was about as far as i got). did 3:44 in 2013 should probably have gone better but had to run within myself as i had a hamstring strain for a few weeks which decided to raise its ugly head 200mtrs into the marathon!!

Very tempting to try for 3:20 but the risk adverse part of me cannot accept that i can run a marathon that quickly!!

Thanks so much for the advice, im sure i will drive myself demented over the next few weeks overthinking my race strategy

Football Friend11

Hi, been reading this thread with interest. I've followed the meno plan for the last three marathons (6 months apart and Dublin should be the third touch wood) and I want to step up to a Pfizinger plan. I've been doing the lower end of the Meno weekly target of miles.

All going well Dublin should be 3:45-3:50, did a half a few weeks ago in 1:42. Do a strength and conditioning class twice a week, run 5-6 times. Had no injuries in the last two years. Basically trying to decide which plan to step up to, I think the 55-70, my Avg mileage at the minute is approx 40 miles so not sure if that's too much of a leap but it has to happen sometime to improve? Looking for general thoughts. Thanks

boydkev

Singer wrote: »

Sounds like you're in the right type of shape for a go at 3:15.

15@MP seems a bit excessive... you could think about doing the last 10@MP and run the first 5 at easy/steady, or 2 easy and then 13@MP. What else are you doing during the week before/after?

That did not go to plan, Had to work abroad for the week, But managed to get 1 5 mile run and gym session in during the week. Did a easy 5 miles on saturday and felt ok so decided to go ahead with the cork to cobh, Lovely day for it. Went off with idea of 8.00 for for first 3 miles and then MP for remaining 12 miles.
Yeah right, first mile was 7.00 and the rest were around 7.15 with last one 6.30(mostly down hill). so 7.10 average, Felt really good for the whole thing, Probably not the best thing for me to do, But it was a great indication of where i am leading up to DCM.

28064212

Football Friend11 wrote: »

Hi, been reading this thread with interest. I've followed the meno plan for the last three marathons (6 months apart and Dublin should be the third touch wood) and I want to step up to a Pfizinger plan. I've been doing the lower end of the Meno weekly target of miles.

All going well Dublin should be 3:45-3:50, did a half a few weeks ago in 1:42. Do a strength and conditioning class twice a week, run 5-6 times. Had no injuries in the last two years. Basically trying to decide which plan to step up to, I think the 55-70, my Avg mileage at the minute is approx 40 miles so not sure if that's too much of a leap but it has to happen sometime to improve? Looking for general thoughts. Thanks

What marathon are you planning on using P&D for? (Why does everyone forget about Douglas?) If it's Dublin 2019, or another Autumn marathon, that shouldn't be a problem. Winter, Spring, start of Summer should be base building, by the time I]Marathon - 18 weeks[/I rolls round, 55 mile weeks shouldn't be a problem

Also, P&D specifically have a chapter on "Before Starting the Schedules", to help assess whether each plan is suitable

Football Friend11

28064212 wrote: »

What marathon are you planning on using P&D for? (Why does everyone forget about Douglas?) If it's Dublin 2019, or another Autumn marathon, that shouldn't be a problem. Winter, Spring, start of Summer should be base building, by the time I]Marathon - 18 weeks[/I rolls round, 55 mile weeks shouldn't be a problem

Also, P&D specifically have a chapter on "Before Starting the Schedules", to help assess whether each plan is suitable

I'll be doing a marathon In June next year, I have the book on the way so the 'before starting the schedule' chapter should be useful then alright. I've done the odd 50-60 mile week and it's been ok, I'm just concerned about consistently doing it. Thanks for the advice, sounds like a good read of the book should give me the answers I need anyway

Murph_D

boydkev wrote: »

That did not go to plan, Had to work abroad for the week, But managed to get 1 5 mile run and gym session in during the week. Did a easy 5 miles on saturday and felt ok so decided to go ahead with the cork to cobh, Lovely day for it. Went off with idea of 8.00 for for first 3 miles and then MP for remaining 12 miles.
Yeah right, first mile was 7.00 and the rest were around 7.15 with last one 6.30(mostly down hill). so 7.10 average, Felt really good for the whole thing, Probably not the best thing for me to do, But it was a great indication of where i am leading up to DCM.

Running that race at faster than PMP, only two weeks after racing Charleville, and after some other too-fast LRs...

It certainly is an indicator for DCM, but perhaps not in the way you think. As this is supposed to be an improvers thread, it’s only right to point out that you may well have left your DCM in Cobh.

Hope I’m wrong, and good luck either way.

boydkev

Murph_D wrote: »

Running that race at faster than PMP, only two weeks after racing Charleville, and after some other too-fast LRs...

It certainly is an indicator for DCM, but perhaps not in the way you think. As this is supposed to be an improvers thread, it’s only right to point out that you may well have left your DCM in Cobh.

Hope I’m wrong, and good luck either way.

I know what you are saying and now that i look back, I think i was wrong to do it and i hope i have not left my DCM in Cobh.
I might have a look at the rest of the plan from now till the DCM and see if changes need to be made.

martyboy48

16 Sept '18

martyboy48 wrote: »

Dublin < 3:10

16 Sept '18

martyboy48 wrote: »

I'm in for Charleville next week....
Will do the Galway bay 10k in Oct for a last blast......

20 Sept '18

martyboy48 wrote: »

Have decided to pull out of Charleville. Niggling knee problem has curtailed my running this week. I'm gonna take the weekend off totally and take it from there.
Hope to get going again next week...

So, I better post an update....
That knee problem lingered on a bit longer than expected. The result of which means my last 3 weeks have been pretty poor mileage wise and no real quality. 17 miles, 17 miles, and 30 miles last week.(No LR over the 3 weeks)

I did the Galway bay 10k yesterday to test the knee and make a final call on DCM as I was willing to write off the marathon totally if the knee flared up at all. I finished in 39:21 which was a 21sec PB from about 6 weeks ago. The knee help up and didn't cause any problems although it's just a little stiff today which I would have expected anyway.

As it stands now I'm happy enough to do the marathon but not sure if I should still go after a 3:10. The last 3 weeks I feel would have been really important to see out the full build up before tapering, where now I'll be trying to build up a small bit of mileage but nothing crazy....

I don't have much of a desire to just trot around so if I line out i'll probably still go for it....

Sorry about that ramble, just thinking out load....

OOnegative

Well done in the 10k Marty, I say go for it as long as your knee holds up. Nothing to lose.....

boydkev

I am considering trying to get a Sub 3 Marathon, I did DCM in 3.18.52.
What are peoples thoughts on going for that much of a jump in time with regard to training. For DCM i used the P&D 18 week plan up 55 Miles.
Would i need to look at increasing to the next plan which is up to 70 Miles and increase the paces of the runs.
Also i ran with a HR monitor on for the marathon(dont Usually for marathons) and i was a bit shocked to see i was on zone 5 for a good portion of the marathon.

Thanks

Itziger

boydkev wrote: »

I am considering trying to get a Sub 3 Marathon, I did DCM in 3.18.52.
What are peoples thoughts on going for that much of a jump in time with regard to training. For DCM i used the P&D 18 week plan up 55 Miles.
Would i need to look at increasing to the next plan which is up to 70 Miles and increase the paces of the runs.
Also i ran with a HR monitor on for the marathon(dont Usually for marathons) and i was a bit shocked to see i was on zone 5 for a good portion of the marathon.

Thanks

That's a jump but a lot depends on your age and more importantly, how long you've been running for/how many marathons you've done.

To answer one or two of your questions. I would say yes, you'll improve by adding miles and yes, you'll have to increase the pace of some runs. It kinda goes without saying that the M pace runs will be faster!!!! But maybe recovery and easy miles won't be, especially if you were running those a bit too fast already.

boydkev

Itziger wrote: »

That's a jump but a lot depends on your age and more importantly, how long you've been running for/how many marathons you've done.

To answer one or two of your questions. I would say yes, you'll improve by adding miles and yes, you'll have to increase the pace of some runs. It kinda goes without saying that the M pace runs will be faster!!!! But maybe recovery and easy miles won't be, especially if you were running those a bit too fast already.

Thanks, I have done 5 marathons and I will be 40 next year. I have been running for the past 6 years.
I my last 3 dublin marathons
2016 - 4:01
2017 - 3:31
2018 - 3:18
And my fitness and speed have really improved this year, Since teh start of th year i have PB'd 5k, 5m, 10k, 10m, Half and Full.
I would love to think it is possible to break the 3hr and i know anything is possible if you commit fully to the end goal.

boydkev

pac_man wrote: »

Just out of interest, what are your PB's?

5k - 18.55
5m - 32.10
10k - 40.43
10m - 1.05.55
Half - 1.28.20

Itziger

boydkev wrote: »

5k - 18.55
5m - 32.10
10k - 40.43
10m - 1.05.55
Half - 1.28.20

Bodykev, it's more than possible. Believe me! That said, those times tell me you need to take another couple of steps up, unless you're an out and out diesel runner.

I'd be looking to take a minute off the 5k, 2 mins 45 off the 10k and about 5 off the Half. All those approx. obviously. If it were me, I'd target and train for a sub 3:10 next time around.

boydkev

Itziger wrote: »

Bodykev, it's more than possible. Believe me! That said, those times tell me you need to take another couple of steps up, unless you're an out and out diesel runner.

I'd be looking to take a minute off the 5k, 2 mins 45 off the 10k and about 5 off the Half. All those approx. obviously. If it were me, I'd target and train for a sub 3:10 next time around.

Yes i was thinking the half would have to be under the 1.25 to be thinking of a sub 3hr marathon.

The Black Oil

DCM 2016: 4:17 (novices plan)
DCM 2017: 4:11 (grads plan)
DCM 2018: 3:57 (meno plan)

I haven't decided on a Spring marathon. I'll mull over this at Christmas. Spring might be just for fun and the location a la Connemara which I've not listed above and was 4:30 (regulars of this parish said forget the time). I have signed up for DCM 2019, and would hope to improve my time. Someone in my report log said I sounded composed and I probably was, without feeling banjaxed at all. Anyway, not overthinking that, it's done nearly two weeks ago now.

What are people's thoughts on plans that are geared towards a specific time? For instance, there's an Asics one that's sub 3:30 (a bloke has them here). Note, from the link there doesn't seem to be one between for a time sub 4 and sub 3:30. Aside from the usual caveats with plans, is there anything these type of don't factor in? It's too early to think about next year, obviously, and I need to crack on with S&C. I'll definitely reuse the grads and and meno plans, btw.

Murph_D

Good question - in my opinion the idea of a ‘sub-3:30’ or ‘sub-4’ or ‘sub-3’ plan is inherently misleading. It only has a chance of working if that is the plan for you, based on your current state of fitness and endurance. A plan that names itself after a time might be full of good sessions and logical progression, but if you’re not ready for it, and now, it’s just hot air. Marathon plans and schedules should be scaleable based on your current and improving fitness, not based on an unrealistic goal.

The Black Oil

Murph_D wrote: »

A plan that names itself after a time might be full of good sessions and logical progression, but if you’re not ready for it, and now, it’s just hot air.

Curious to see if Asics track and publish any data from those who use their plans. A quick search suggests they may not. Might shoot them a mail anyway, just for fun.