Marathon Improvers Thread.

ittakestwo

Naked Lepper wrote: »

first marathon planned for this years dublin marathon
only did a few 10k runs before (best time was 48 minutes)

i cycle for around an hour six days a week and play football for an hour three times a week, so my cardio is pretty good at the moment

i think i will need to give up some of the football days if i want to train properly and manage to complete this respectably -

realistically it will be first week in july before consistent running will start, which gives me july, august, september and then somewhat of a taper in october while leading up to the race

can anyone please give me some advice or recommend a realistic training plan, i just want to finish it but somewhere around 4 hours should probably be my goal (im 33 male, 80kg and dont smoke)

i have watched loads of videos and read a bit online but any extra info/tips/lessons u can share based on my background would be very much appreciated

My advice to anyone doing it for the first time would be to get your running weekly millage up ASAP. Running on tired legs is really good for marathon perpetration. Don't think you need have your legs rested before every run to get the most out of the session.... Also on your long run don't push yourself to do it in a fast time. time on legs is what is important here. Be relaxed and breed calmly on your long run. I made the the two mistakes above and failed badly on first marathon because of them.


Also if you are doing a lot of sprinting in your football to get the ball it might not be any harm to keep it and sub it for a track day.

Murph_D

ittakestwo wrote: »

...Be relaxed and breed calmly on your long run. ...

This takes practice, I hear.

skyblue46

Murph_D wrote: »

This takes practice, I hear.

He's right though. It helps if you don't push to do it in a fast time :pac:

peterc14

I done first marathon last year @ Dublin last year and loved the atmosphere. Didn't think I would do it again this year because the training is a long slog however here I am signed up again for October.
Last year I followed the ASICS 26.2 plan for sub 3.30 and it worked well. They have a sub 3.00 plan which is way out of reach, but I was thinking of making my own plan by comparing the sub 3.00 & 3.30 plan and coming up with a sub 3.20/3.15 plan.
Has anyone else used the ASICS 26.2 plans and what are your thoughts on them?

jaggiebunnet

Having done my last 3 marathons off the back of P&D training plan (3:32, 3:46, 3:29) I am looking to see if I can get to 3:25. I found I was very tired mid plan and didn't hit any of the paces I needed to hit during that time and went into (the 3:46) not very confident, now on the day both calfs locked up at 21 so not sure if i actually would have made the sub 3.30 i was aiming for, but i did make 3:29 a few weeks later in clonakilty so really that Dublin run might just have been a fantastic training run

What are other folks experiences - I had it in my head at the end of last year that I really needed longer long runs with more quality miles in them and less lots of miles runs during the week as that is what was tiring me out, mentally and physically. I would like to get the long runs up to 23 and do maybe 4 or 5 20 or more runs as opposed to the bare 3 20milers. Realise there is a greater risk of injury but I really did feel much better coming off Dublin than I did going into it. Also toying with the split runs during the week as it might make me less tired and be easier to manage with all that family life brings.

Murph_D

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Having done my last 3 marathons off the back of P&D training plan (3:32, 3:46, 3:29) I am looking to see if I can get to 3:25. I found I was very tired mid plan and didn't hit any of the paces I needed to hit during that time and went into (the 3:46) not very confident, now on the day both calfs locked up at 21 so not sure if i actually would have made the sub 3.30 i was aiming for, but i did make 3:29 a few weeks later in clonakilty so really that Dublin run might just have been a fantastic training run

What are other folks experiences - I had it in my head at the end of last year that I really needed longer long runs with more quality miles in them and less lots of miles runs during the week as that is what was tiring me out, mentally and physically. I would like to get the long runs up to 23 and do maybe 4 or 5 20 or more runs as opposed to the bare 3 20milers. Realise there is a greater risk of injury but I really did feel much better coming off Dublin than I did going into it. Also toying with the split runs during the week as it might make me less tired and be easier to manage with all that family life brings.

Used Hanson last year so long runs only up to 16 (although I did a 19.6 at the ¾ Marathon.). Worked for me - 3:22 for 6 min PB. The key was long weekly runs with lots of marathon pace. Individual long runs weren’t the point, more like cumulative fatigue but still grinding out the pace. An approach that makes you strong if you get it right. Plenty of speed work too but at slightly more forgiving pace than P&D and others. MP on tired legs is what it’s all about.

jaggiebunnet

Murph_D wrote: »

Used Hanson last year so long runs only up to 16 (although I did a 19.6 at the ¾ Marathon.). Worked for me - 3:22 for 6 min PB. The key was long weekly runs with lots of marathon pace. Individual long runs weren’t the point, more like cumulative fatigue but still grinding out the pace. An approach that makes you strong if you get it right. Plenty of speed work too but at slightly more forgiving pace than P&D and others. MP on tired legs is what it’s all about.

I used the beginner Hanson for my first marathon and felt I blew up because of the lack of miles at that distance. Will have a look at the advanced one as I haven't considered it since. thanks.

smashiner

Has anyone else used the ASICS 26.2 plans and what are your thoughts on them?[/QUOTE]

I am following the ASIC's 26.2 plan at the moment, as a friend of mine in work ran a cracking debut marathon (3:35)in Brighton last year using it, so I decided to give it a go and so far so good, it looks similar to the Irish Runner plan that I followed back in 2014 and 2015, but with a few faster short runs and a 'step back' week every few weeks after a plateau of base endurance running.

I am attempting the DCM for the third and final (famous last words) :rolleyes:time. Despite a really solid 'novice' training plan, I had a nightmare debut in 2014 with after effects of the dreaded manflu and difficult conditions on the day I did 4:48, very lucky to even finish, the second half was horrible!
I was mentally scarred by this but being a bit 'determined/thick' I decided to enter in 2015 as a friend wanted me to do it with him and I did less training (circa 80K) due to injury niggles than the previous year and did 4:18, half an hour faster, DCM demons laid to rest!

So, I want to have another go at slaying the Dragon again, this time aiming for sub 4 hours if possible or at least better than 4:18 with the same effort that I put in for 2014, minus the manflu.......

Training is going well so far, but I have a nagging Achilles niggle that is a worry and foam rollering on the calves seem to help out big time.

The ASIC's plan that I have concocted only calls for 3 runs a week as I am a bit injury prone, but I do swim on average 3 times a week, not sure if that is going help out bar stretching tired muscles out.

Any advice would be appreciated!

peterc14

Good luck with your plan...as I said it worked well for me last year. The training was tough but the rewards feeling comfortable on the day made it all worthwhile.
Hopefully my modified ASICS plan works as well this year!

OOnegative

Over 3 weeks into the P&D 55/70 18 week plan, will hit 60 miles by 10am tomorrow morning for this week. Body holding up very well thankfully but this week i’ve had to row one of the MLR’s back to just a General Aerobic run due to the heat/humidity here in The Hague. I had ran an 11 mile MLR the day before and ran it the way P&D recommends starting at MP+20% and working down to MP+10%, ran myself to point of dehydration!!(before anyone questions me on dehydration, i’ve suffered it before so know what it feels like)

I was well hydrated going out but the heat & humidity took it out of me, switched the following days 12 miles to just a GA run as a result, wasn’t much better. This may be a common practice from now on with the heat and humidity for me or just switch the MLR’s to General Aerobic runs dependent on the day. Not the way the plan is supposed to be run but better than a visit to the hospital!!!

and still ricky villa

You're not alone OOnegative

Anyone hitting their miles this week deserves an extra bump in their planned time come race day

Lazare

Question for anyone familiar with JD Q2.

So I've selected my current VDot. As per instruction I've dialled that back by 2 for the first six weeks.

Should I not though be running threshold elements of sessions at actual LT?

Should I keep T, I & R paces at current VDot and only dial back easy and MP?

Lazare

Probably too narrow a question.

Basically what I'm asking is, if a plan suggests dialling back your entire pace range for an initial conservative period, does that not make threshold elements slightly redundant?

Surely threshold runs should always be at threshold.

Murph_D

Have never done a JD marathon plan, but your question intrigued me and I had a look at the book.

It seems fairly clear on this - 2 VDOTs slower than goal/final pace, - or 10s/m (6s/k) if not using VDOT table.

I think the idea is to adjust into the more challenging task of converting your shorter recent race time (and associated VDOT) into its marathon equivalent.

I would have thought the way you are thinking too, but I see what Daniels is doing here - the idea being to start the training easier, increase the intensity during the middle third, only reaching the training paces associated with the goal time in the final third.

Lazare

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

I knew there had to be a method to it, because eh, it's Jack Daniels, and who am I?

Cheers Murph

sassyj

Have started training for DCM, 2nd go at it. I really don't want to use gels this time, anyone training without? What do you use??

OOnegative

sassyj wrote: »

Have started training for DCM, 2nd go at it. I really don't want to use gels this time, anyone training without? What do you use??

Used them on my first training block in 2016, only used them as a warm up last year as a tune up for race day conditions. Won’t use them at all in preparation for Köln in October, pint of electrolytes before my run and water there after when i’m out will do me. Obviously a good carbohydrates meal the night before my long run to. This only applies to long runs.

sassyj

OOnegative wrote: »

Used them on my first training block in 2016, only used them as a warm up last year as a tune up for race day conditions. Won’t use them at all in preparation for Köln in October, pint of electrolytes before my run and water there after when i’m out will do me. Obviously a good carbohydrates meal the night before my long run to. This only applies to long runs.

Did you eat anything on long runs?'I think I'll need something but gels won't agree with me at all. Considering Jaffa cakes
I tried date/almond/nut butter balls this weekend, but they don't carry well, body heat!

OOnegative

sassyj wrote: »

Did you eat anything on long runs?'I think I'll need something but gels won't agree with me at all. Considering Jaffa cakes
I tried date/almond/nut butter balls this weekend, but they don't carry well, body heat!

Nope, nothing only water, no food.

and still ricky villa

Thread here with loads of opinions on fuel
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057665695/1/#post101526460

conti

sassyj wrote: »

Have started training for DCM, 2nd go at it. I really don't want to use gels this time, anyone training without? What do you use??

I've done 2 marathons and on both occasions I had to stop from hamstring cramps and gel-induced stomach pains (my own fault for taking them out of desperation).

I was going to try 33-shake for my next one but they're too pricey so I've been trying out my home made date bars halfway through some of my long runs and they've been great so far. They're just dates, cashews, pumpkin/sesame/chia seeds, salt and peanut butter blitzed in a food processor and and left to set in the fridge. Or if you don't want the hassle just buy Nakd bars. Ingredients are all natural and shouldn't wreak havoc on your stomach. My nutrition plan for the next one is two of these and an electrolyte effervescent; hoping for my first cramp-free marathon.

Kellygirl

conti wrote: »

I've done 2 marathons and on both occasions I had to stop from hamstring cramps and gel-induced stomach pains (my own fault for taking them out of desperation).

I was going to try 33-shake for my next one but they're too pricey so I've been trying out my home made date bars halfway through some of my long runs and they've been great so far. They're just dates, cashews, pumpkin/sesame/chia seeds, salt and peanut butter blitzed in a food processor and and left to set in the fridge. Or if you don't want the hassle just buy Nakd bars. Ingredients are all natural and shouldn't wreak havoc on your stomach. My nutrition plan for the next one is two of these and an electrolyte effervescent; hoping for my first cramp-free marathon.

How do you find eating them while running? And carrying them for that matter? I make a lot of my own stuff but for before and after running and never thought to try bringing any of them with me. I find isogels easy to cope with anyway besides my hands becoming a sticky mess sometimes.

conti

Kellygirl wrote: »

How do you find eating them while running? And carrying them for that matter? I make a lot of my own stuff but for before and after running and never thought to try bringing any of them with me. I find isogels easy to cope with anyway besides my hands becoming a sticky mess sometimes.

I'll bring the pace down significantly so I can breathe while eating but keep a jogging pace. There's only about 5 maybe 6 bites to a bar so I don't lose too much time, I'll also make sure to sip some water with it before increasing speed again. I wrapped them in cling film (I'm on the lookout for something less wasteful) and carry them in my Flipbelt which fits more than enough.

The Davestator

conti wrote: »

I've done 2 marathons and on both occasions I had to stop from hamstring cramps and gel-induced stomach pains (my own fault for taking them out of desperation).

I was going to try 33-shake for my next one but they're too pricey so I've been trying out my home made date bars halfway through some of my long runs and they've been great so far. They're just dates, cashews, pumpkin/sesame/chia seeds, salt and peanut butter blitzed in a food processor and and left to set in the fridge. Or if you don't want the hassle just buy Nakd bars. Ingredients are all natural and shouldn't wreak havoc on your stomach. My nutrition plan for the next one is two of these and an electrolyte effervescent; hoping for my first cramp-free marathon.

Have you looked at or tried Tailwind? I used them this year, and found them to be a brilliant alternative to gels.

You can buy a trial pack

conti

The Davestator wrote: »

Have you looked at or tried Tailwind? I used them this year, and found them to be a brilliant alternative to gels.

You can buy a trial pack

I had heard it mentioned on the MTA podcast, I think it's actually one of their sponsors but I never followed it up until reading your comment. Amazon reviews seem very positive, think I might have to try it.

Huzzah!

The Davestator wrote: »

Have you looked at or tried Tailwind? I used them this year, and found them to be a brilliant alternative to gels.

You can buy a trial pack

How do you take Tailwind? The amount of liquid required would be tough for me to stomach, I think.

The Davestator

Huzzah! wrote: »

How do you take Tailwind? The amount of liquid required would be tough for me to stomach, I think.

I just mixed one sachet with 500 ml of water and found it grand. Never really had an issue with gels, but thought tailwind would be a good mix of water, electrolytes and energy all in one.

Never had any stomach issues and tasted nice

conti

The Davestator wrote:

Have you looked at or tried Tailwind? I used them this year, and found them to be a brilliant alternative to gels.

The Davestator wrote:

You can buy a trial pack

I bought a 30 serving bag because it seemed better value than buying a sample pack. I tried it before a 10km race last week with no issue. Today I used it for Longford marathon and have to say it really is the business. It wasn't my fastest marathon (due to heavy humidity) but I had zero stomach issues, it definitely gave me a boost too. Leg cramps did start sneaking in but I think that's partly due to my neglecting strength work of late.

Only issue is that I didn't take enough with me and ran out by 33rd km, but I'll know for next time. Thanks for that solid recommendation.

The Davestator

conti wrote: »

I bought a 30 serving bag because it seemed better value than buying a sample pack. I tried it before a 10km race last week with no issue. Today I used it for Longford marathon and have to say it really is the business. It wasn't my fastest marathon (due to heavy humidity) but I had zero stomach issues, it definitely gave me a boost too. Leg cramps did start sneaking in but I think that's partly due to my neglecting strength work of late.

Only issue is that I didn't take enough with me and ran out by 33rd km, but I'll know for next time. Thanks for that solid recommendation.

Good to hear. Defo has helped me.

I was impressed with their customer service. When I ordered, I got a hand written note wishing me luck with my training for Edinburgh marathon (they ask when you order)

Few days before, I got an email wishing me well and giving me the forecast for the day!

Pink11

conti wrote: »

I bought a 30 serving bag because it seemed better value than buying a sample pack. I tried it before a 10km race last week with no issue. Today I used it for Longford marathon and have to say it really is the business. It wasn't my fastest marathon (due to heavy humidity) but I had zero stomach issues, it definitely gave me a boost too. Leg cramps did start sneaking in but I think that's partly due to my neglecting strength work of late.

Only issue is that I didn't take enough with me and ran out by 33rd km, but I'll know for next time. Thanks for that solid recommendation.

Great to see so many people raving about this product as I just bought some :P

Ordered 21 sticks to try and the 50 serving pouch for 50ish euro on amazon. I went for the caffeine version after reading the reviews of it. ]

I plan to use the drink for as long as it lasts in the bottle and then switch to sticks once my mix is used up on a long run/day of marathon.