Marathon Improvers Thread.

Wubble Wubble

How's it going, only discovered this one recently. Thanks to HBS for starting it up!

Very briefly; 44, male, signed up for DCM 2017, which all going well will be my third marathon.

Previous two attempts:

Paris 2014, no discernible plan, playing football at the same time, 4:18

DCM 2016, 3:49, following the Boards plan for Novices, with a weekly high of 43 miles.

I like the sound of P&D Advanced 18 weeks with a 55 mile high for the week. However, with just a couple of weeks to the start of this, I'm nowhere near the suggested 40 mpw; more like 30 in a good week.

I could use the Boards plan again if, as is likely, this isn't a realistic option this time. However, that smacks somewhat of doing the same thing and expecting a different result; any improvement in time would probably be just down to having an extra year of running in the bag.

With this in mind, can anyone recommend something in between that they've tried successfully? All or any suggestions welcome!

Kennyg71

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

How's it going, only discovered this one recently. Thanks to HBS for starting it up!

Very briefly; 44, male, signed up for DCM 2017, which all going well will be my third marathon.

Previous two attempts:

Paris 2014, no discernible plan, playing football at the same time, 4:18

DCM 2016, 3:49, following the Boards plan for Novices, with a weekly high of 43 miles.

I like the sound of P&D Advanced 18 weeks with a 55 mile high for the week. However, with just a couple of weeks to the start of this, I'm nowhere near the suggested 40 mpw; more like 30 in a good week.

I could use the Boards plan again if, as is likely, this isn't a realistic option this time. However, that smacks somewhat of doing the same thing and expecting a different result; any improvement in time would probably be just down to having an extra year of running in the bag.

With this in mind, can anyone recommend something in between that they've tried successfully? All or any suggestions welcome!

Why not try Meno plan, plenty of sessions and MP work, starts between35-40 miles, did it last year an PB for half but got injured, knocked 7 mins off HM time
Injury nothing to do with plan. Murph has used on 2 or 3 occasions with success.
HBS posted in this thread few pages back.

AuldManKing

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I finally decided that I'll definitely follow P+D for Dublin, but which one?
First of all I'm going to follow one of there 5 week recovery plans form the book. This suits me because it coincides with the family holiday and I just don't want to train hard when I'm away this year. I've done it for the last two years - I enjoy running when I'm away, but I just don;t want to train hard this year.
Anyway that brings me to the 9th of July. A 12 week programme would start on the 31st of July. So I'd have 3 weeks were I could just add a bit more mileage and just increase the long run a small bit and maybe fit in a couple of Wednesday evening races too.
Or - and this where I'm leaning more - I could do a bit of a mix. If I do mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then jump into the 18 week plan I get a 15 week plan. I loose out of some of the endurance weeks, but I'm hoping that the training I've done for Cork will stand to me for this.
The only question that remains is which plan - up to 55 or up to 70. I had good results with the up to 55 last year. For Cork though my mileage peaked at 67, and I had a few more weeks above 55. I think the ideal mileage for me is somewhere between the up to 55 and the up to 70. Also 6 days a week running suits me too. I have a few weeks left to decide what to do.

You could do the 55 and add mileage to it where you see fit. A couple of miles extra on a run here and there - an additional 4m run every now and then.
Use the plan as a guide rather than a set in stone kinda thing.

I merged the structure of the P&D plan last yer but included some MP sessions into 1 of the MLR's each week. This really helped me as I dont think that P&D has enough MP pace miles in it.

quick feet

Really enjoying reading this thread,touching on alot of topics that relate to myself..
This is my 4th year training for a marathon
dcm 2014 ..3.41 hal Higdon novice
Dcm 2015.. 3.28 run coach
Berlin 2016... 3.26 runcoach ..loosely followed..
Dcm 2016.. 3.24 off berlin training
I'm in for dublin and berlin again, just coming to the end of the mcmillan10k plan then hoping to jump into p&d 12 week up to 55 plan.. I'm a relatively low milage runner avg 30 m.p/w with 37 being the max so far.. consistantly training 4 times per week and currently on long run of 14-16miles..
Basically I'm just curious as to what are the most popular plans coming into marathon season and what marathon your taking part in..for me
Berlin p&d up to 55

hot buttered scones

AuldManKing wrote: »

You could do the 55 and add mileage to it where you see fit. A couple of miles extra on a run here and there - an additional 4m run every now and then.
Use the plan as a guide rather than a set in stone kinda thing.

I merged the structure of the P&D plan last yer but included some MP sessions into 1 of the MLR's each week. This really helped me as I dont think that P&D has enough MP pace miles in it.

Cheers - I came to same conclusion myself after messing around with the plans bit. I'm thinking an extra 5 mile recovery/GA run on the midweek Rest/Cross training day would do it, but it's flexible and I like the sound of adding a couple of miles here and there as well, especially to warm ups and cool downs on workout days. I could even work in a few short hills with full recoveries on those days, as I think I would benefit a lot from them. I'm going to do Mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then move onto the 18 week plan. This gives me 5 weeks to recover from Cork, including the family holidays and a 16 week plan for Dublin starting on 10/07.
I really enjoyed the MLRs last year - even though they were slow I got great confidence from running up those 11/12 milers midweek. I'll have a look at doing some MP stuff, but I think it might be of more benefit to me to do more aerobic training at slower paces. I ran a lot of my easy runs for Cork at PMP +45s to +1 min or so, and I think this may have been detrimental in the end to my endurance.

So provisionally it will look something like this:

Date|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday|Total miles max
10/07/17|REST or C/T|8 GA w/10x100|BHAA Dell 4 mile |Extra 5 recovery|5 Recovery|13 w/8@MP|REST or C/T|40
17/07/17|REST or C/T|11 MLR|Extra 5 recovery|8 w/4@ LT|REST or C/T|5 Recovery|15 MLR|44
24/07/17|REST or C/T|8 GA w/10x100m|4 Recovery|Churchtown South 5 mile|11 MLR|4 Recovery|16 w/10@MP|48
31/07/17|REST or C/T|5 Recovery|10 w/5@ LT|11 MLR|Extra 5 recovery|5 recovery|17 long|53
07/08/17|REST or C/T|10 w/5@ LT|4 Recovery|11 MLR|5 recovery|7 GA w/8x100m|18 long|55
14/08/17|REST or C/T|7 GA w/6x100m|12 MLR|Extra 5 recovery|10 w/6@ LT|5 Recovery|20 Long|59
21/08/17|REST or C/T|6 recovery|14 MLR|6 rec or Ballycotton 5 |Extra 5 recovery|6 rec w/6*100m|16 w/12@MP|53
28/08/17|REST or C/T|8 GA|8 w/5x800@5k|5 Recovery|Extra 5 recovery|8 GA w/8x100m|14 MLR|48
04/09/17|REST or C/T|11 w/7@ LT|7 GA w/6x100m|12 MLR|5 Recovery|20 long|Extra 5 recovery|60
11/09/17|REST or C/T|8 w/5x600@5k|12 MLR|Extra 5 recovery|5 rec w/6*100m|8k-15k race???|Charleville half|60
18/09/17|REST or C/T|8 GA|12 MLR|Extra 5 recovery|9 w/5x1000@5k|5 Recovery|18 miles including 14 @MP |57
25/09/17|REST or C/T|8 w/5x600@5k|11 MLR|Extra 5 recovery|4 rec w/6*100m|8k-15k race|17 long |58
02/10/17|REST or C/T|7 rec w/6x100m|10 w/4x1200@5k|Extra 5 recovery|11 MLR|4 Recovery|20 Long|57
09/10/17|REST or C/T|8 w/5x600@5k|6 recovery|Extra 5 recovery|4 rec w/6*100m|8k-10k race|16 Long|50
16/10/17|REST |7 GA w/8x100m|8 w/3x1600m@5k|REST or C/T|5 rec w/6*100m|Extra 5 recovery|12 MLR|37
23/10/17|REST|6 rec |7 with 2miles @MP |REST or C/T|5 rec w/6*100m|4 rec|Marathon|22 prerace


Obviously I'll have to make changes the week of Charleville, but so far I'm happy enough with this. Some runs have been moved around to suit work, and more may have too.

boydkev

That looks like a plan that would suit me with a few tweeks and adding in a weeks holiday middle of august.
Sorry for this stupid question, What do you mean by MLR, GA and extra recovery.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

That looks like a plan that would suit me with a few tweeks and adding in a weeks holiday middle of august.
Sorry for this stupid question, What do you mean by MLR, GA and extra recovery.

That plan is basically copied outright form the book "Advanced Marathoning" by Pfitzinger and Daniels and you really need to read it if your doing the plan. Everything is explained really well in the book. Amazon does a kindle version that you can read on your phone or PC if you don;t want to buy the hard copy.
MLR=medium long run - any run between 11 and 15 miles to be run at long run pace range (Start at MP+20% and gradually increase pace to MP+10%)
GA=General Aerobic=Ordinary easy pace runs
Extra Recovery - these are extra days of running I've put into the plan for myself to increase the weekly mileage. On the plan itself these days are scheduled as Rest/Cross Training days. The plan maxes out at 55m/week over 5 days, whereas I'm going for 60m/week over 6 days. I've also made a few more small changes as to when some runs are scheduled because I work odd hours

boydkev

hot buttered scones wrote: »

That plan is basically copied outright form the book "Advanced Marathoning" by Pfitzinger and Daniels and you really need to read it if your doing the plan. Everything is explained really well in the book. Amazon does a kindle version that you can read on your phone or PC if you don;t want to buy the hard copy.
MLR=medium long run - any run between 11 and 15 miles to be run at long run pace range (Start at MP+20% and gradually increase pace to MP+10%)
GA=General Aerobic=Ordinary easy pace runs
Extra Recovery - these are extra days of running I've put into the plan for myself to increase the weekly mileage. On the plan itself these days are scheduled as Rest/Cross Training days. The plan maxes out at 55m/week over 5 days, whereas I'm going for 60m/week over 6 days. I've also made a few more small changes as to when some runs are scheduled because I work odd hours

Thanks HBS,

Ordered the book yesterday, So look forward to reading it.

The Black Oil

Saw a poster that my local club - I'm not a member - has hill sprints on Mondays and LSRs early Sunday morning. Monday is likely out as if the M50 plays up I'd be late. But the LSRs should be an option. The ad stated they've three LSRs aimed at the DCM, suitable for: 3:45, 3:45-4:15 and 4:15+.

Not sure if these are the actual ones.

http://luskathleticclub.ie/lsr-josephines-route/

http://luskathleticclub.ie/lsr-garys-route/

Perhaps something to consider after completing the base plan.

S.L.F.

Hi there, could anyone tell me what the following pace would be: 10 min, 7 min, 3 min (2 min jog (Threshold-CV paces)?

Is this about 80%

hot buttered scones

S.L.F. wrote: »

Hi there, could anyone tell me what the following pace would be: 10 min, 7 min, 3 min (2 min jog (Threshold-CV paces)?

Is this about 80%

The paces are taken from here:

http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Threshold is roughly 10 mile race pace to HMP. CV is about 5mile race pace to 10k pace. I think for that session you do the 10&7@ threshold and the 3@CV.

S.L.F.

hot buttered scones wrote: »

The paces are taken from here:

http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Threshold is roughly 10 mile race pace to HMP. CV is about 5mile race pace to 10k pace. I think for that session you do the 10&7@ threshold and the 3@CV.

That's really useful info - thanks a lot for that.

adrian522

Hi,

Anyone any thoughts or recommendations on a Half Marathon Plan?

My main target for the second half of the year will be a half so looking for something to base my training around. I'd probably be looking at 60ish miles per week and was thinking of 1 tempo and 1 interval session per week.

I'll have 12 weeks between Dunshaughlin and race day, but say 1 week for recovery after the 10K leaves 11 weeks of training time

I've looked at the BAA Half plan and the plans from "Faster Road Running" anything else out there?

Kennyg71

adrian522 wrote: »

Hi,

Anyone any thoughts or recommendations on a Half Marathon Plan?

My main target for the second half of the year will be a half so looking for something to base my training around. I'd probably be looking at 60ish miles per week and was thinking of 1 tempo and 1 interval session per week.

I'll have 12 weeks between Dunshaughlin and race day, but say 1 week for recovery after the 10K leaves 11 weeks of training time

I've looked at the BAA Half plan and the plans from "Faster Road Running" anything else out there?

MurphD doing Hanson, he has spread sheet up on his log, I'm sure he won't mind giving you heads up on the plan.

adrian522

Thanks, yeah I'd seen that one too. It's interesting but I think I'd need to jump in in week 7 or so, which I guess is an option

hot buttered scones

adrian522 wrote:

Anyone any thoughts or recommendations on a Half Marathon Plan?

If your on Strava Premium have a look at the McMillan half plan which might suit. If your not on premium - surely someone can sort you out. I could do it but I'm away until July 5th if that suits. I've had a look at some of those plans and they look ok.

Itziger

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks, yeah I'd seen that one too. It's interesting but I think I'd need to jump in in week 7 or so, which I guess is an option

Have you looked at the Garmin plans? I've cherry-picked from the Advanced before. Wouldn't be up to all the sessions. Can't remember what the Intermediate was like.

adrian522

No, didn't realise they even had plans, I'll have a look for them!

Itziger

adrian522 wrote: »

No, didn't realise they even had plans, I'll have a look for them!

They seem to be relatively unknown, for whatever reason. Here's the Half Advanced. It's got some tough bits in there! I tried a few of the key sessions and was happy enough with how they left me, sharpness wise.
http://static.garmincdn.com/shared/emea/custom/training/downloads/running/Half-Marathon-Training-Plan-Advanced-ENGLISH.pdf

adrian522

Thanks for digging that out, looks like a good plan in fairness. I'll draw something up during the week I think.

This looks like tough..

AM - Recovery Run, 30mins //
PM - Warm-up, 10mins +10mins @ Threshold with 60seconds recovery jog + 3 x 1K @ 10K pace with 90seconds recovery jog between efforts + 10mins @ Threshold

Itziger

adrian522 wrote: »

Thanks for digging that out, looks like a good plan in fairness. I'll draw something up during the week I think.

This looks like tough..

AM - Recovery Run, 30mins //
PM - Warm-up, 10mins +10mins @ Threshold with 60seconds recovery jog + 3 x 1K @ 10K pace with 90seconds recovery jog between efforts + 10mins @ Threshold

I've done that PM session and I think it's a great one. Yes, tough, but good tough! If I'm not mistaken it goes up to 15+4x1k+15, no?

(I've closed the tab with the link)

adrian522

Itziger wrote: »

I've done that PM session and I think it's a great one. Yes, tough, but good tough! If I'm not mistaken it goes up to 15+4x1k+15, no?

(I've closed the tab with the link)

Yeah, I guess you have to build up to these things.

I've noticed a lot of plans have threshold paces more so than HM pace.

clickerquicklic

I'm really a marathon novice so this question probably should go in novices thread but I've run a marathon before a long time ago and didn't train properly so no past experience of such , anyway . My question is should i race a half marathon in build up to marathon ? I was going to enter clontarf half in two weeks time , I've been doing a long run of half marathon distance for last few weeks is there any benefit in running a half marathon at all ? Should I go as hard as possible or run it at planned marathon pace ? I'm roughly aiming for sub 3:30 for marathon but that is an arbitrary figure based on other people times I know who have ran similar 5k times to me ( this is probably a ridiculous thing to base it off ! But I've no other idea , the running calculators online seem optimistic ) thanks .

kin9pin

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm really a marathon novice so this question probably should go in novices thread but I've run a marathon before a long time ago and didn't train properly so no past experience of such , anyway . My question is should i race a half marathon in build up to marathon ? I was going to enter clontarf half in two weeks time , I've been doing a long run of half marathon distance for last few weeks is there any benefit in running a half marathon at all ? Should I go as hard as possible or run it at planned marathon pace ? I'm roughly aiming for sub 3:30 for marathon but that is an arbitrary figure based on other people times I know who have ran similar 5k times to me ( this is probably a ridiculous thing to base it off ! But I've no other idea , the running calculators online seem optimistic ) thanks .

I would have said run Clontarf as a race as it would give you a better indicator of your potential goal marathon time. However, pretty sure I saw today that it's now sold out.
If you've signed up for DCM then I would also recommend the race series Dublin HM which is 5 weeks before. That will give a better indicator of your progress as you'll have the bulk of training complete (the race-series 10m in August is also a good one).

Have a look at the 2017 novices thread. Might be an idea to join in there as you'll get loads of great advice and support. It doesn't matter that you've already run a marathon, you'll still benefit. They also have a couple of plans that include the tune-up races.

I personally wouldn't go by the online calculators using your 5k time as the distance is just too short to measure your endurance.

Kennyg71

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I'm really a marathon novice so this question probably should go in novices thread but I've run a marathon before a long time ago and didn't train properly so no past experience of such , anyway . My question is should i race a half marathon in build up to marathon ? I was going to enter clontarf half in two weeks time , I've been doing a long run of half marathon distance for last few weeks is there any benefit in running a half marathon at all ? Should I go as hard as possible or run it at planned marathon pace ? I'm roughly aiming for sub 3:30 for marathon but that is an arbitrary figure based on other people times I know who have ran similar 5k times to me ( this is probably a ridiculous thing to base it off ! But I've no other idea , the running calculators online seem optimistic ) thanks .

I know from my time in novice thread racing is encouraged right up to HM distance, but usually that half would be 5-6 weeks before Marathon. IMO if you want to start Marathon training fresh no real point in raciing a half marathon as it could take a couple of week to fully recover. If you just like a race athmosphere and just treat as long run and trow in a few MP miles no harm.

Wouldn't mind running calculators to much, see how training goes, but probably best to make your way to novice thread and only listen to one line of advice, which from my experience was mainly spot on. Best luck with training.

Mumontherun

Hi, a marathon newbie, but experienced runner & also into road cycling. I have signed up for DCM. Looking at various plans, the run calculator link on here suggests I am capable of a 3:30 marathon ( I am not so sure about this). Whilst I will aim for a sub 3:30 I will re adjust my time if I feel the training isn't going according to plan. I have looked at a few programs for sub 3:30 and in particular the Runners World Run Less Run Faster, which is based on 3 key runs a week, which would suit me but I do feel the long runs are very long in comparison to other programs for sub 3:30. It's a 16 week program (which I hope to start 2 weeks early which would be in a week to allow for sickness/life interruptions etc) with the long runs starting as follows, 13 miles, 15, 17, 20, 18, 20, 13, 18, 20, 15, 20, 15, 20, 13, 10, Race Day. I generally cycle at least twice a week, a current weekend long ride approx 100k avg 27/28 km/hr and a mid week either tempo 50k @ 30km/hr or 70/80k avg 26 km/hr. I would like to keep the cycling going as my cross training but the program doesn't recommend that quantity of cycling as xt but I would be willing to cut the long weekend spin to 70k and try and space a days rest between my long spin and long run. I am still hoping to do a few more sportives before the Summer is over. Anyone here in a similar situation to me who does both running and cycling and can give me any advice / program recommendations?

Murph_D

Good luck with the plan. The obvious answer to your dilemma is to keep it simple. Running a marathon with ambitious goal? Concentrate on marathon training. Cross training is all very well and useful in the off season but not particularly useful (in my opinion) to your running. If you have the running capacity, and an ambitious marathon target, why not play to your (non-cycling) strengths?

Good luck with it, however you plan it.

ger664

Agree with above commit to the marathon ct/bike of under an hour is, grand on some rest/recovery days. As regards 3:30 my 5k time would give me a sub 3:10 after 50+ marathons my pb is 3:18 so take these calculation times with a large pinch of salt

clickerquicklic

Mumontherun wrote: »

Hi, a marathon newbie, but experienced runner & also into road cycling. I have signed up for DCM. Looking at various plans, the run calculator link on here suggests I am capable of a 3:30 marathon ( I am not so sure about this). Whilst I will aim for a sub 3:30 I will re adjust my time if I feel the training isn't going according to plan. I have looked at a few programs for sub 3:30 and in particular the Runners World Run Less Run Faster, which is based on 3 key runs a week, which would suit me but I do feel the long runs are very long in comparison to other programs for sub 3:30. It's a 16 week program (which I hope to start 2 weeks early which would be in a week to allow for sickness/life interruptions etc) with the long runs starting as follows, 13 miles, 15, 17, 20, 18, 20, 13, 18, 20, 15, 20, 15, 20, 13, 10, Race Day. I generally cycle at least twice a week, a current weekend long ride approx 100k avg 27/28 km/hr and a mid week either tempo 50k @ 30km/hr or 70/80k avg 26 km/hr. I would like to keep the cycling going as my cross training but the program doesn't recommend that quantity of cycling as xt but I would be willing to cut the long weekend spin to 70k and try and space a days rest between my long spin and long run. I am still hoping to do a few more sportives before the Summer is over. Anyone here in a similar situation to me who does both running and cycling and can give me any advice / program recommendations?

I'm similar enough to this, there is so much conflicting information online, I was going to replace easy runs for cycles but after looking at lots of plans I've decided to ignore cycling training all together and to follow a sub 3:30 plan, I actually picked a sub 3:15 plan I'll see how that goes it's similar to 3:30 paces look manageable and I can always drop back to other plan.
I do 100k on bike most weeks commuting and I've friends that cycle who I do a few long rides with maybe once a month or so. I ran a half marathon long run yesterday and a couple of hours later did 100k on bike , I didn't notice that I had run the bike seems to use different muscles , on Friday I did a 60k with some hill repeats on bike and Saturday morning was my long run and similarly don't think it had much effect on legs or fatigue if it was it was marginal. I'm finding the running is making me a stronger cyclist but the cycling is doing nothing for my running so that's why I've ignored it for training .

*thanks lads I'll seek advice in novice thread and cheers for heads up on clontarf been sold out probably for the best . I've entered the race series so in for that half anyway .

kin9pin

The Irish 3/4 Marathon is on 8th October which ties in nicely with the planned 22 mile steady run on the meno plan. The plan says steady is MP +5%, with the last few miles at MP, and I see the pacers in this race also run at 105% of certain MP's. Is it worth entering this, with say a 1m w/u and c/d, for a good dress rehearsal or do the more experienced runners think the risk of actually ending up racing it is too great?

Singer

kin9pin wrote: »

The Irish 3/4 Marathon is on 8th October which ties in nicely with the planned 22 mile steady run on the meno plan. The plan says steady is MP +5%, with the last few miles at MP, and I see the pacers in this race also run at 105% of certain MP's. Is it worth entering this, with say a 1m w/u and c/d, for a good dress rehearsal or do the more experienced runners think the risk of actually ending up racing it is too great?

I ran it last year, I ran it mostly to plan and would definitely do it again. It's really well organised and there's not a full-on race atmosphere . It should at the end of your peak milage week, with meno's "sting in the tail" a few days later, you won't be in the mood for racing anyway

kin9pin

Singer wrote: »

I ran it last year, I ran it mostly to plan and would definitely do it again. It's really well organised and there's not a full-on race atmosphere . It should at the end of your peak milage week, with meno's "sting in the tail" a few days later, you won't be in the mood for racing anyway

Oh yeah thanks, just seen the 14m MP for the following Wednesday I seem to remember a couple of the 2016 novices raving about it last year so I've just entered.

ger664

HBS

I just had a quick reread of the thread. I fear for you on the posted plan mainly the weekend where you have Charlivile Half, 18 mile with 14@MP then 10K race followed by 17 miles.

P&D doesn't schedule races longer then 10 miles which imo is correct. The recovery time from a raced half has too much of an effect on the training. There is really no benefit that cant be got from a ten mile race.

My advice would be not to race a half during the cycle. Ten miles max followed by a long run the day after is how P&D has this scheduled. You will recover quicker and reduce your risk of injury.

If you are going to persist with racing Charlevillie I would advise not running the 14 miles @ MP the following weekend and maybe do the 14 miles MP in the last 20 miler if the legs are up to it.

Van.Bosch

Hi, I've done a few marathons but havnt been too regular with running over the last few months so in two minds about whether to do P&D 55 18 week plan or the meno plan. I appreciate what plan I should do will depend on various factors but in general what are people's opinions on which is tougher/more advanced?

hot buttered scones

Trying to reply to ger664 above but the app keeps losing my posts. I've noted what you've said and will look at it when back off holidays. Thanks.

hot buttered scones

Van.Bosch wrote:

Hi, I've done a few marathons but havnt been too regular with running over the last few months so in two minds about whether to do P&D 55 18 week plan or the meno plan. I appreciate what plan I should do will depend on various factors but in general what are people's opinions on which is tougher/more advanced?

There both different and tough in there own way. P+D has some VO2 max stuff which meno does not, but meno has more MP stuff and harder long runs. Meno is more flexible. I enjoyed both.

Testosterscone

kin9pin wrote: »

The Irish 3/4 Marathon is on 8th October which ties in nicely with the planned 22 mile steady run on the meno plan. The plan says steady is MP +5%, with the last few miles at MP, and I see the pacers in this race also run at 105% of certain MP's. Is it worth entering this, with say a 1m w/u and c/d, for a good dress rehearsal or do the more experienced runners think the risk of actually ending up racing it is too great?

FWIW like Singer I did this last year as a steady run myself and +1 on race it's ideal prep.

There will be the temptation to go out too hard but this is good practice for keeping things controlled like you will have to early on come race day.

Looking at the Meno plan though personally I wouldn't be mad on having those two sessions so close together. The sessions themselves would have similar enough effect and with short recovery would prob opt for something with slightly different stimuluous

adrian522

When I followed that plan, I didn't race the half, but did it at MP, making the total for the day 22 miles and thought that worked well. That was 4 weeks out from the race. I still did the 14 Miles @ MP 10 days later, but didn't add on any extra to bring up the total mileage for that one.

Itziger

Where's Meno's plan to be found???

adrian522

There's a link on the first post of this thread.

Jakey Rolling

Going to stick with Hal Higdon Advanced 1 plan, as it works well around my work and family schedule. After summer holidays and some shorter races etc I'll be picking it up rigidly 12 weeks out from Dublin.

Used this for Limerick but over-did the mileage on a few occasions and missed too many speed sessions. Initially trained to 3:15 pace, revised to around 3:22 based on my MP sessions and LT testing, screwed it up on the day by going out far too fast - finished in 3:36. Ran Cork 5 weeks later with just maintenance mileage and managed a steady 3:27, felt I had another 5 mins if the conditions had been more favourable (absolutely no soreness after Cork, the limiting factor for me was the heat)

Going to put more emphasis on the quality speed sessions this time around and hopefully get lactate threshold checked again so I can make a decision on a sensible pace for Dublin. Initial target is 3:15

Current PB's:
5k - 19:11 (2016)
10k - 41:53 (2017)
10m - 67:12 (2017)
1/2 - 1:36 (marathon split)
Mar - 3:27 (2017)

hot buttered scones

Same target as myself Jakey. Here's hoping for more suitable conditions than Cork.

Spirogyra

My LSR of 12.7 miles was in average of 9 minutes 21 seconds per mile. I didn't time the shorter runs by myself.

Murph_D

How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

Kennyg71

Murph_D wrote: »

How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

Don't have enough experience to offer an real insight, but long LT runs, and long steady runs from reading would apear to be big part of the key, so Hanson plan for its part may prove to be of benifit. But I suppose Marathon is also about running as relaxed as possible and dealing with mental side of running for a long time, much harder to deal with peaks and troughs over longer distance, At moment my half PB 1.37.57 or there abouts is faster than my 10 mile, 10k and 5 mile PB according to calculators.

ger664

Murph_D wrote: »

How are other marathon improvers doing with the perennial problem of pace drop-off? I used to think this was not a big issue for me as my marathon times lined up quite well with shorter race times, but over time my shorter times have improved, to the extent that my marathon PB (3:28) is now way off what is 'predicted' by my 5k time (20:21). I know calculators are supposed to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt, but perhaps less so over time, as one gets more experienced.

How do your times line up, and what has been the most important training element for developing speed endurance? Long tempo runs? Long runs 'with stuff'? Diet? Cross training? Something else? All of the above?

Develop the endurance first. HADD training or something similar, a marathon training cycle etc. This takes patience, miles and time. Once this is developed tackle the speed.

Rinse and repeat.

Murph_D

ger664 wrote: »

Develop the endurance first. HADD training or something similar, a marathon training cycle etc. This takes patience, miles and time. Once this is developed tackle the speed.

Rinse and repeat.

Three full marathon cycles in past 18 months! Mostly P&D. I did struggle a little with the LT/tempo runs.

I suppose I'm asking for personal experiences, as perhaps the methods in marathon books like P&D, being generic, might be pitched at faster athletes. For me, moving to P&D for marathons 6, 7, 8 and 9 was not really a success, although there were external factors too (weather, etc.).

ger664

Murph_D wrote: »

Three full marathon cycles in past 18 months! Mostly P&D. I did struggle a little with the LT/tempo runs.

I suppose I'm asking for personal experiences, as perhaps the methods in marathon books like P&D, being generic, might be pitched at faster athletes. For me, moving to P&D for marathons 6, 7, 8 and 9 was not really a success, although there were external factors too (weather, etc.).

Ran My first 3 marathons in 3:58 3:52 3:41. In an effort to get a BQ time I tried 18 week P&D, I struggled with it and eventually got injured which sidelined me from serious training for over a year.
Then I tried the hanson type method of run less faster. I blew up in the goal race due to lack of endurance going for a time that wasn't in the legs.
What worked for me was HADD training (look over yaboya1 log) combined with multi marathons over a period of 9 months followed by 12 Week P&D. Marathons where ran every 3-4 weeks at a pace +30 minutes of PB at the time followed by 60 mins steady the day after. Nailed 3:21 in the goal trying to kick on since but life/work has not lined up to let me get the work done.

jaggiebunnet

Is it worth doing some summary on who is using what plan for Dublin - just to see how we all think it works out plan, target time, pb ? I will go first! Note: I am having severe rethinks on my choice of plan with all the options getting thrown around but I know I am too lazy to read enough before Monday start for the 18 week plan.

Name|Training Plan|Target Time|PB
jaggiebunnet|P&D18 55|3:25|3:32

Murph_D

Interesting - my first few marathons (4:02, 3:46, 3:36) would be similar to yours results-wise - am familiar with yaboya's log and have read the hadd material - good to know someone else has used it successfully!