Marathon Improvers Thread.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

Am i mad considering doing both Charleville and Cork-Cobh?

Probably if you plan to race them both all out tbh.

ger664

boydkev wrote: »

Am i mad considering doing both Charleville and Cork-Cobh?

Are either of those races your A goal ?

NO THEY ARE NOT.

As I have said before in this thread if you are following P&D there are no races over 10 miles in the plan. So trying to insert them is changing the plans focus and may lead to an increased risk of injury. If Cobh or Charlevillie falls in line with the 14 Mile MP then its a good substitute but DO NOT RACE IT.

boydkev

ger664 wrote: »

Are either of those races your A goal ?

NO THEY ARE NOT.

As I have said before in this thread if you are following P&D there are no races over 10 miles in the plan. So trying to insert them is changing the plans focus and may lead to an increased risk of injury. If Cobh or Charlevillie falls in line with the 14 Mile MP then its a good substitute but DO NOT RACE IT.

You are right, These races are not my goal.
And thinking about it more i want to stick to a plan as i didn't for last 2 marathons and didn't achieve what i wanted from them.

Spirogyra

Did a club training session last night followed by a cardio class at 6 am (ran .8 mile back and forth), that will be 6 day's training this week (3 of them just being 2 miles or 2 miles plus boot-camp/cardio). Up to 6 day's a week though, had been just 3 a month ago Think the cardio may have been a bit much today but I'll learn for next week

JohnDozer

Question for those who might have used P&D previously for Dublin, just really want to get a sense of what tune up races people used. I've done my usual thing of doing an about turn on my plan of choice, and am assuming I will still be on that plan by the time those tune-up races come around...

adrian522

What dates are the races on the plan? You rarely have to look too far for a 10K race over the summer so you should be fine.

JohnDozer

16th September, 30th September and 14th October. I've looked in the usual places and they are scarce enough. There are some options but they involve quite a bit of travel.

One is obviously Charleville weekend but I'm now debating doing that on the basis of the 15k upper limit and what others have said.

Cork 10 mile is on the 9th September but I'm going to try and avoid moving stuff on the plan unless I absolutely have to.

I was conscious it might be early for some races to be showing up on event calendars so was just sussing out what others have used previously really.

Itziger

My advice would be, don't get too caught up with the tune-up races side of things. If the plan says 10k or 10 mile race and you can't find one, then go out and do a good hard session instead. Instead of a 10k race you could do T stuff or split 10k pace intervals. Or you could do a fast finish Long Run. Another top type of session is that one that Krusty does a fair bit, mixing M pace with HM pace (approx. definition). I've tried a few of them and they are a good workout alright. Something like W/U and whatever number of miles consisting of 1,000metres of M+600 of HM pace. No rest, just see how far you can go!!

I know that is getting away from the P&D plan but I have come to think that a bit of mix and match is no bad thing. Find a run that is tough but doable, that stretches you but that makes you feel, $hit, that was good!

The advantage of those sessions is that you still won't be flogging the body doing a full race at full speed, cos that just ain't possible in training. At least it should not be.

RayCun

JohnDozer wrote: »

Question for those who might have used P&D previously for Dublin, just really want to get a sense of what tune up races people used. I've done my usual thing of doing an about turn on my plan of choice, and am assuming I will still be on that plan by the time those tune-up races come around...

I ran the Donadea 10k as my two-weeks-out race, way back when. Doesn't suit your location!

adrian522

You could even use a parkrun for the tune up 2 weeks out and just add on a bit yourself. It's about a good hard race effort so 5k with a good hard warmup before should do the trick also.

As the lads have said don't get too hung-up on it. I don't think there is any need to race a half though.

hot buttered scones

@Johndozer - I couldn't find a race 2 weeks out last year, so I ran a solo time trial, which was not ideal. A parkrun either followed by or preceded by another hard effort would probably do. I've spotted a 10k on September 30th down in Passage East in Waterford. It's on at 2pm so it might do. I'm doing Charleville and have done so before, but the week after is tough. The problem is usually finding races on a Saturday as they all tend to be on Sunday - so I'm thinking a parkrun for October and maybe do a couple of mile repeats afterwards?

Edit: Also wrt the Cork 10 mile - I know it's a week early, but at least it's on Saturday (at 6pm), which means you can do the long run on Sunday afterwards. I won't be doing the long run the day after Charleville. The course is fairly decent too.

hot buttered scones

Double post

hot buttered scones

RayCun wrote: »

I ran the Donadea 10k as my two-weeks-out race, way back when. Doesn't suit your location!

It's on at 11am though - I might be able to tie that in with a visit to the outlaws in Dubland. Cheers!

Spirogyra

How does one combine XC in September and October with the DCM ? midweek lsr ?

Van.Bosch

Question regarding LSR's or even longer runs like the 10m mid week in P&D.

If you do these early in the morning, how wrecked are you for the rest of the day? I feel shattered, functional but really drained. Possibly to do with not eating right quick enough after but just wondering for those who do the food etc right, how much of an impact does it have?

JohnDozer

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Question regarding LSR's or even longer runs like the 10m mid week in P&D.

If you do these early in the morning, how wrecked are you for the rest of the day? I feel shattered, functional but really drained. Possibly to do with not eating right quick enough after but just wondering for those who do the food etc right, how much of an impact does it have?

I'm not going to claim I do the food right! I'm only two weeks into the plan (skipped to week 2 due to a race) so I'm still getting used of the change in routine. I've only just changed to running early mornings so I'm not sure if it's that that's making me tired or the increase in training load. I've also done some of the runs faster than I should have so that didn't help. I do find if I'm working later on the day of running early I'm fine, whereas if it's a Sunday run and I've the opportunity to avoid doing things, I can feel very lazy and lethargic.

What I have found for sure already is if I eat properly in the first hour after the run, I do recover much better and feel less fecked after. Early days to know for sure what's going on I think. Lots of factors feed in to the tiredness, and a little bit of fatigue should be present. Finding the sweet spot is the trick I guess...

annapr

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Question regarding LSR's or even longer runs like the 10m mid week in P&D.

If you do these early in the morning, how wrecked are you for the rest of the day? I feel shattered, functional but really drained. Possibly to do with not eating right quick enough after but just wondering for those who do the food etc right, how much of an impact does it have?

I've been doing sessions before breakfast and before work... like johndozer says, eating a good breakfast afterwards really helps... experts suggest within 30 min of finishing, important to have carbs and protein.

I do find myself struggling to stay awake in meetings in the afternoon... but that might be more about the content than the fatigue

boydkev

I now do my mid week runs before i go in to work (Tue, Wed, Thur), Somedays i do feel that i could fall asleep at my desk in the afternoon and i think it is down to how good a nights sleep i get the night before. I also enjoy the morning runs as there is less traffic and its cooler especially at the moment.

Spirogyra

A good nights sleep is a big help, actual sleep preferably....difficult though if one runs in the evening

The Davestator

boydkev wrote: »

I now do my mid week runs before i go in to work (Tue, Wed, Thur), Somedays i do feel that i could fall asleep at my desk in the afternoon and i think it is down to how good a nights sleep i get the night before. I also enjoy the morning runs as there is less traffic and its cooler especially at the moment.

Big time - I love getting it done early. I go to bed at 9:30 and asleep by 10 pm though!

Up at 5;45 - Running by 6 am and I'm home from most of my runs by 7 am. Breakfast and on the bike for work by 8 am. I'm then free for the evening to chill

boydkev

I am looking for some advice, For previous marathons i have had holidays early during a plan so it had little impact but i am going 2 months later this year and wondering how much i need to get done while away.
In the P&D 55 plan, I will need to do this while away.
F- Rest (Travelling Evening)
S- 7 +Speed
S- 18 LSR
M- rest
T- 7 +Speed
W- 12 Medium
T- Rest
F- 10 LT
S- 5 Recovery
S- 20 LSR (Travelling Evening)

What do people suggest i concentrate on while away with regard to long runs etc.....

The Davestator

boydkev wrote: »

I am looking for some advice, For previous marathons i have had holidays early during a plan so it had little impact but i am going 2 months later this year and wondering how much i need to get done while away.
In the P&D 55 plan, I will need to do this while away.
F- Rest (Travelling Evening)
S- 7 +Speed
S- 18 LSR
M- rest
T- 7 +Speed
W- 12 Medium
T- Rest
F- 10 LT
S- 5 Recovery
S- 20 LSR (Travelling Evening)

What do people suggest i concentrate on while away with regard to long runs etc.....

I think that a lot will depend on how understanding your other half is!

Seriously though - if it's going to be hot, you'll need to be careful. Very hard to do hard sessions in high temps. To get ahead of the high temps, you'll need to get out early which means an early night (is that doable?)

jaggiebunnet

having just come back from hot conditions for the last couple of weeks doing P&D (thankfully early in the plan) I struggled, down to all the above, even with early nights, dehydration was a killer - too much food and drink, bad rest and then the heat itself, even at 7am it was 23C. Don't think i hit planned pace at any point but did all runs bar the last recovery one. So never slept too much as you can imagine!

adrian522

How long are you away for? Try and have your week away coincide with one of the P&D recovery weeks. You'll have to re-jig the plan slightly. The key runs in the week you've posted are the 18 LSR, the LT run and the 20 mile run.

If you could rearrange the previous week to get the long run done on Friday you could take your rest day the day after you arrive. The 7 mile run is not that important, any run you get done that day will be fine.

The 12 Mile run is also a bit of a "nice to get done" but don't panic if it gets cut short or dropped altogether, there are so many in the plan that missing one won't make much difference.

Try and get your LT run in. I'd aim to have the night before an early (and preferably alcohol free) night and get it done early. The Sunday run if you can get it in do otherwise maybe push it to the Monday, but the 20 Mile run is important in that plan.

At the end of the day whatever runs you get done are a bonus as missing a few won't make much difference over the course of the plan.

boydkev

The Davestator wrote: »

I think that a lot will depend on how understanding your other half is!

Seriously though - if it's going to be hot, you'll need to be careful. Very hard to do hard sessions in high temps. To get ahead of the high temps, you'll need to get out early which means an early night (is that doable?)

LOL, My other half is very understanding but on holiday could be a different story.
I dont think early nights are a problem as we are going with a 7 & 5 year old.

I would also plan on going put as early as possible as heat WILL be a problem near Salou in the middle of august.

Van.Bosch

Has anyone used the sub 4 asics plan, it looks good to me but less mileage than P&D which I have done previously but I havnt done enough running year to date to do that.

hot buttered scones

boydkev wrote: »

I am looking for some advice, For previous marathons i have had holidays early during a plan so it had little impact but i am going 2 months later this year and wondering how much i need to get done while away.
In the P&D 55 plan, I will need to do this while away.
F- Rest (Travelling Evening)
S- 7 +Speed
S- 18 LSR
M- rest
T- 7 +Speed
W- 12 Medium
T- Rest
F- 10 LT
S- 5 Recovery
S- 20 LSR (Travelling Evening)

What do people suggest i concentrate on while away with regard to long runs etc.....

If you could shift the long runs around it might help. What about something like:

M-10LT
T-4 rec
W-Rest
Th- 18 LSR
F- Rest (Travelling Evening)
S- 7 +Speed
S- 11MLR
M- rest
T- 7 +Speed
W- 12 Medium
T- Rest
F- 10 LT
S- 5 Recovery
S- (Travelling Evening)
M- 20 LSR

Just get out early in the morning if you can and don't worry too much about pace if its hot, especially for the LT run. Just don't burn yourself out on holidays trying to do too much.

denis b

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Question regarding LSR's or even longer runs like the 10m mid week in P&D.

If you do these early in the morning, how wrecked are you for the rest of the day? I feel shattered, functional but really drained. Possibly to do with not eating right quick enough after but just wondering for those who do the food etc right, how much of an impact does it have?

I would normally do most of my runs pre-breakfast on the P&D plan at this stage. For me staying hydrated during the week is absolutely key. Post run chocolate milk for the more demanding and longer sessions on return help as well. More milk and porridge after shower seem to settle everything down as well and after that plenty of fluids during the working day.

Have not noticed any residual tiredness most days to be honest.

Van.Bosch

denis b wrote: »

I would normally do most of my runs pre-breakfast on the P&D plan at this stage. For me staying hydrated during the week is absolutely key. Post run chocolate milk for the more demanding and longer sessions on return help as well. More milk and porridge after shower seem to settle everything down as well and after that plenty of fluids during the working day.

Have not noticed any residual tiredness most days to be honest.

Thanks, to be honest I think I don't have a strong enough base for the P&D, was only doing 20/30 k a week which is too steep a jump. I wasn't enjoying it at all and with a jump like that I'm risking injury too. Going to ease back onto a lighter plan but possibly keep the P&D long runs.

The P&D plan is (I think) brilliant for people looking to improve themselves whereas I'm more in the need to get myself in shape.

denis b

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Thanks, to be honest I think I don't have a strong enough base for the P&D, was only doing 20/30 k a week which is too steep a jump. I wasn't enjoying it at all and with a jump like that I'm risking injury too. Going to ease back onto a lighter plan but possibly keep the P&D long runs.

The P&D plan is (I think) brilliant for people looking to improve themselves whereas I'm more in the need to get myself in shape.

Good call at this stage and absolutely right to keep your eye on the bigger picture.