Marathon Improvers Thread.

chrislad

I'm week 9 into a modified Hal Higdon plan, and I think I'm going to step back into the regular Intermediate 1.

For comparsion (in miles) this was was - 6, 10, 6, 8, 13 - The Hal one is 4, 5, 4, 13 (with an extra rest day, must be a step back week)

The next 6 midweek runs are all 10 miles - the HH one is 8,8,5,8,5,8.

I've adjusted my plan and I'm losing 46 miles over 9 weeks, which should make things a bit easier.

Itziger

chrislad wrote: »

I'm week 9 into a modified Hal Higdon plan, and I think I'm going to step back into the regular Intermediate 1.

For comparsion (in miles) this was was - 6, 10, 6, 8, 13 - The Hal one is 4, 5, 4, 13 (with an extra rest day, must be a step back week)

The next 6 midweek runs are all 10 miles - the HH one is 8,8,5,8,5,8.

I've adjusted my plan and I'm losing 46 miles over 9 weeks, which should make things a bit easier.

I'm not familiar with the HH plans at all but 8 mile - not to mention 5 mile! - midweek runs hardly seem great preparation for a marathon.

chrislad

Itziger wrote: »

I'm not familiar with the HH plans at all but 8 mile - not to mention 5 mile! - midweek runs hardly seem great preparation for a marathon.

That's probably why I had it higher in the first place. I'm still deciding really. I'll probably change some of the later 5s to 8, and one of the 8s to 10.

I'm really apathetic about this marathon. I just want to get through it, as I don't plan to do one again, as I'm just not enjoying the distance or training any more.

denis b

chrislad wrote: »

That's probably why I had it higher in the first place. I'm still deciding really. I'll probably change some of the later 5s to 8, and one of the 8s to 10.

I'm really apathetic about this marathon. I just want to get through it, as I don't plan to do one again, as I'm just not enjoying the distance or training any more.

Is it worth tackling the marathon now? It's a significant use of your time and resources. Had a similar moment or two over the last week or so and decided that I want to do it. Might be worth having a think about what you want for now.

All the best whatever you decide.

chrislad

Yeah, I'm not going to back out at this stage. I've paid for the entry, flights, and accommodation already! It's going to probably be the only time I get into Berlin, as I'm never going to GFA, so I want to do it. I'm just a bit tired, and I'm really busy in work right now so that's probably not helping. If it were a local marathon, I could drop it, but not this one. I'll get through it, I'm just in the regret stage of the training right now. I've a rest week this week so that will perk me up I'm sure!

denis b

chrislad wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not going to back out at this stage. I've paid for the entry, flights, and accommodation already! It's going to probably be the only time I get into Berlin, as I'm never going to GFA, so I want to do it. I'm just a bit tired, and I'm really busy in work right now so that's probably not helping. If it were a local marathon, I could drop it, but not this one. I'll get through it, I'm just in the regret stage of the training right now. I've a rest week this week so that will perk me up I'm sure!

Fair play Chris. Will continue to follow. Had forgotten that the goal was Berlin.

Unthought Known

Just looking for some advice on the next couple of weeks of the meno plan if anyone can help? I'm running the Fingal 10k tomorrow so the plan for the next couple of weeks (from Monday) is currently:

Wk1: 3m Rec, rest, 7m easy, 10m with 6MP, 3m rec, rest, 16m easy
Wk2: rest, 7m easy, 80min progression, 3m rec, rest, 5m easy, 18m easy

My problem is I'm flying to England early Saturday straight to a family party. On Sunday I'm flying to Spain and I don't think I'll have the time (or inclination) to run the 16m.

If I was to change Wk1 to this (running the 16m this Friday):

Wk1: 3m Rec, rest, 10m with 6MP, 3m rec, 16m easy, rest, rest

am I putting too much pressure on myself keeping the MP run on Wednesday? If anything I'd prefer to drop the Wednesday run back to all easy rather than skip the long run.

In Spain I shouldn't have a problem keeping to the plan. Did it last year with the Boards novice plan and it's actually great starting a run at 5am and watching the sun come up

adrian522

Unthought Known wrote: »

Just looking for some advice on the next couple of weeks of the meno plan if anyone can help? I'm running the Fingal 10k tomorrow so the plan for the next couple of weeks (from Monday) is currently:

Wk1: 3m Rec, rest, 7m easy, 10m with 6MP, 3m rec, rest, 16m easy
Wk2: rest, 7m easy, 80min progression, 3m rec, rest, 5m easy, 18m easy

My problem is I'm flying to England early Saturday straight to a family party. On Sunday I'm flying to Spain and I don't think I'll have the time (or inclination) to run the 16m.

If I was to change Wk1 to this (running the 16m this Friday):

Wk1: 3m Rec, rest, 10m with 6MP, 3m rec, 16m easy, rest, rest

am I putting too much pressure on myself keeping the MP run on Wednesday? If anything I'd prefer to drop the Wednesday run back to all easy rather than skip the long run.

In Spain I shouldn't have a problem keeping to the plan. Did it last year with the Boards novice plan and it's actually great starting a run at 5am and watching the sun come up

Could you do the 10 with 6 @ MP on Tuesday, recovery Wednesday, Easy run Thursday (or a rest day here), then long run Friday, then take the weekend off?

Don't sweat it though, missing a run at this stage of the plan won't have any negative impact on race day.

Unthought Known

adrian522 wrote: »

Could you do the 10 with 6 @ MP on Tuesday, recovery Wednesday, Easy run Thursday (or a rest day here), then long run Friday, then take the weekend off?

Don't sweat it though, missing a run at this stage of the plan won't have any negative impact on race day.

Thanks, that sounds good to me. I'll see how the legs are after tomorrow.

JacEim

Hi all
Just stumbled across this thread - hopefully someone might be able to help me out...
Did my first and only marathon in Dublin in 2015 and was thrilled with a 3:35 time. The novices thread was my most visited website that year and it was absolutely tremendous help (Dubgirl and everyone else were brilliant!). I was very comfortable on the day and remember that I could have kept going at the finish line so didn't leave everything out on the course (but was a great way to feel when finishing!!) Have kept running since but haven't entered any races this year. My last race was a 10 miler last year in 70.15 (carrying an Achilles injury) and I've been doing 20-30 miles per week for the last 3 months before starting the marathon program.
I'm doing the Asics 3:30 program as felt the 4:00 program worked really well for me (I don't expect to be 25 mins better than the 3:30 plan!!).
Anyway, I'm in the habit of having an A,B and possibly C targets. I was thinking of having sub 3:30 as my C target, 3:25 as the B target and 3:20 as the A (very aspirational) target.
I'm trying to use the 3:30 plan but retrofitting it to try to train for 3:20. For example - today I was supposed to do 12 miles in 1:48 (9.00 min mile), so I did the 12 miles at 1:32 (7.45 min mile). Couple of questions:
1. How much do I need to adjust the speeds on the 3:30 plan to train for a 3:20 time? (I felt that 7.45 min miles was too fast today).
2. Am I crazy trying to retrofit the 3:30 plan? Do I need to be increasing the mileage as well as the speed - e.g. Should it have been an extra two miles today and 30 seconds faster than what the 3:30 plan called for?
3. While I have been keeping a reasonably decent base level of fitness, I haven't been training for any events this year so I have no idea yet what I will be able to Peak out at for DCM - and will be another 5-6 weeks until I have really focused on executing the plan and building my fitness. Am I mad to be even considering a 3:20?
4. I like the 16 week Asics plans - even though these 4:00 and 3:30 plans are probably a bit old now. I downloads the Asics APP and it created a different looking plan which I just didn't like the look of.

Any thoughts? I'm not precious - tear strips off the above if necessary..
Cheers

Singer

JacEim wrote: »

Hi all
Just stumbled across this thread - hopefully someone might be able to help me out...

Hello again, and welcome back

JacEim wrote: »

I'm doing the Asics 3:30 program as felt the 4:00 program worked really well for me (I don't expect to be 25 mins better than the 3:30 plan!!).

Is https://www.chooseachallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-3.30.pdf what you're doing?

JacEim wrote: »

1. How much do I need to adjust the speeds on the 3:30 plan to train for a 3:20 time? (I felt that 7.45 min miles was too fast today).

I reckon that's too fast. 8:30 is probably around right. By all means do the last few miles faster, and maybe do one or two longer runs in and around that pace, but generally that seems a little aggressive for 3:20ish.

JacEim wrote: »

4. I like the 16 week Asics plans - even though these 4:00 and 3:30 plans are probably a bit old now. I downloads the Asics APP and it created a different looking plan which I just didn't like the look of.

I don't think running plans get stale over time The mid-week run and overall milage seem a little light to me in the Asics plans I've seen, if you're going to change it up then I'd consider going longer mid-week and generally adding on distance to some of the mid-week runs. But then again at that stage you're basically running a different plan :eek:

Van.Bosch

In terms of the asics plans being too light midweek, is that for a particular pace? The sub 4 one seems to be about 6/6/6/6/7/7/8 type thing which I thought was light too but is similar to the boards plan, so I reckon it's okay for a sub 4 plan?

Thanks

JacEim

Thanks Singer - that's the plan I'm using. So in summary, taking approx 30 seconds off the LSR at the weekend and adding a little bit more distance to the midweek runs.

Do I need to up the pace a little more on the interval / speed work ? If it's calling for intervals at 5k pace (which by October would be at around 15kph) then I'm trying to run them at 16kph for the 3.20 factor. I always get confused on these mid week speed sessions - are you supposed to be using your PB speed (as long as it is reasonably relevant), your current time for that distance or what you expect it would be for that distance having completed a marathon program? Eg i know my 5k pb is 19.52 but would currently probably do around 21.30, and if I do one in December would expect to be closer to 19.40 after doing this training
Does this make any sense even ?
I

Baxtardo

What's the general consensus on the HH plans as an improver? DCM 2016 was my first marathon, looking to go from 4:02 to maybe around 3:30 this year. I saw it mentioned above that the plan seems a bit light on midweek runs? I'm conscious of this being the fifth week of plans and need to get something locked in fairly soon. I'm increasing from an average 30km per week so far this year. HM PB is 1:34, 5k 19:24, both run recently. Below is the Intermediate 1 plan I've been half / sort of following. Thanks.

http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51139/Marathon-Intermediate-1-Training-Program

Some great advice on this thread so far, great resource to have.

Van.Bosch

Baxtardo wrote: »

What's the general consensus on the HH plans as an improver? DCM 2016 was my first marathon, looking to go from 4:02 to maybe around 3:30 this year. I saw it mentioned above that the plan seems a bit light on midweek runs? I'm conscious of this being the fifth week of plans and need to get something locked in fairly soon. I'm increasing from an average 30km per week so far this year. HM PB is 1:34, 5k 19:24, both run recently. Below is the Intermediate 1 plan I've been half / sort of following. Thanks.

http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51139/Marathon-Intermediate-1-Training-Program

Some great advice on this thread so far, great resource to have.

I'm far from an expert but to drop from 4:02 to 3:30 I think you need a more aggressive plan, risk is though that increasing the mileage that quick will likely cause injuries. Maybe stick to the plan but add a mile or two to the longest midweek run?

Singer

JacEim wrote: »

I always get confused on these mid week speed sessions - are you supposed to be using your PB speed (as long as it is reasonably relevant), your current time for that distance or what you expect it would be for that distance having completed a marathon program?
I

Run to your what you reckon is your current 5k pace, not your old or target one!

Baxtardo

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I'm far from an expert but to drop from 4:02 to 3:30 I think you need a more aggressive plan, risk is though that increasing the mileage that quick will likely cause injuries. Maybe stick to the plan but add a mile or two to the longest midweek run?

Thanks for the feedback. I've also been looking at the Asics 3:30 plan posted above. Seems to be a more balanced plan, with longer midweek runs and one LSR / short run at weekends. This might be a better option?

In terms of getting times down, is more miles in the legs the number one priority, or should I be focusing on more varied midweek runs (speedwork / hillwork etc.) also?

Murph_D

Baxtardo wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. I've also been looking at the Asics 3:30 plan posted above. Seems to be a more balanced plan, with longer midweek runs and one LSR / short run at weekends. This might be a better option?

In terms of getting times down, is more miles in the legs the number one priority, or should I be focusing on more varied midweek runs (speedwork / hillwork etc.) also?

Most reasonably advanced plans combine one or two midweek sessions (speed and/or tempo) and a long run, the latter having elements of quality or 'stuff' (progressive pace, fast finish, alternating pace, etc). There would also be 3-4 easy recovery days, and a mileage of 50-90 kms per week.

With your 5k/HM times, your issue is endurance, not speed, so what I would be concentrating on is mileage, building up sensibly from where you are now. 30k is certainly a little light, and you would want to be building this up slowly (adding 10% per week, stepback week every four weeks or so).

It may be too late for you this year to increase that mileage safely and sufficiently. There are cases here of runners getting excellent results off very low mileage, but they tend to be the exception. Many intermediate to advanced marathon plans suggest you are doing a minimum of 50kms a week before even taking them on (to avoid injury risk from increased intensity as well as increased mileage).

Baxtardo

Murph_D wrote: »

Most reasonably advanced plans combine one or two midweek sessions (speed and/or tempo) and a long run, the latter having elements of quality or 'stuff' (progressive pace, fast finish, alternating pace, etc). There would also be 3-4 easy recovery days, and a mileage of 50-90 kms per week.

With your 5k/HM times, your issue is endurance, not speed, so what I would be concentrating on is mileage, building up sensibly from where you are now. 30k is certainly a little light, and you would want to be building this up slowly (adding 10% per week, stepback week every four weeks or so).

It may be too late for you this year to increase that mileage safely and sufficiently. There are cases here of runners getting excellent results off very low mileage, but they tend to be the exception. Many intermediate to advanced marathon plans suggest you are doing a minimum of 50kms a week before even taking them on (to avoid injury risk from increased intensity as well as increased mileage).

Interesting advice there. I should have got myself in order a few months ago! I've probably been averaging 60k p/w including cycling. I did over 50k last week with the plan (running) and the body feels fine. I'm still a bit confused which plan to go with, I'll do some more research but either way the idea seems to more more miles in a sensible manner.

You are bang on with the endurance vs. speed issue..always been the way!

Thanks for the info.

boydkev

Baxtardo wrote: »

What's the general consensus on the HH plans as an improver? DCM 2016 was my first marathon, looking to go from 4:02 to maybe around 3:30 this year. I saw it mentioned above that the plan seems a bit light on midweek runs? I'm conscious of this being the fifth week of plans and need to get something locked in fairly soon. I'm increasing from an average 30km per week so far this year. HM PB is 1:34, 5k 19:24, both run recently. Below is the Intermediate 1 plan I've been half / sort of following. Thanks.

http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51139/Marathon-Intermediate-1-Training-Program

Some great advice on this thread so far, great resource to have.

I am the same as yourself, Did DCM 16 in 4.00 and plan to get under the 3.30 this year. My PB are very similar with HM 1.36 and 5k 19.40. I looked at doing the HH Interdediate but then went down the P&D 55, 18 Week plan. Currently on week 5 and this week is 45 miles. I am finding the plan really good and managable. The LT runs are tough and the increase in mileage is steady.

peterc14

Singer wrote: »

Is https://www.chooseachallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-3.30.pdf what you're doing?

This is also the plan I am following so would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on it also.

Spirogyra

Has a 5k race any place in a Marathon plan?. There's one on Saturday the 13th. I'd really like to 'test' myself with one and it's important for 'variety' too. But it's unlikely I could do a very long run on the Sunday. Any thoughts regarding 'accommodating' such?. Thanks, S

adrian522

I did a 5k (Parkrun) 2 weeks out last year. I think its a good blowout and good to get the body in touch with hurt of racing again and get the turnover going prior to the race.

No great downside to doing one as the recovery time isn't that significant and there is benefit there,

Rathfarnham is a good one in the run up to Dublin.

Spirogyra

Thanks Adrian, how many miles would you then run on Sunday?.

adrian522

I ran 14 on the Sunday last year but at a very easy pace. That was 2 weeks out. 3 or more weeks before the race you could do more I guess.

The Black Oil

Heading out with a club 4hr+ group this weekend, hopefully.

ger664

adrian522 wrote: »

I did a 5k (Parkrun) 2 weeks out last year. I think its a good blowout and good to get the body in touch with hurt of racing again and get the turnover going prior to the race.

No great downside to doing one as the recovery time isn't that significant and there is benefit there,

Rathfarnham is a good one in the run up to Dublin.

A wise old coach told me that a 5K/4 mile race flat out the week before is good to get you into the swing of things. I questioned the proximity to the race and he said if you dont recover from it in 4-5 days you have overcooked your training, if you get injured same was going to happen in the marathon. Think he has a point.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

This is also the plan I am following so would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on it also.

I'm kind of following this, but between races and club sessions (Wednesdays) I am doing a lot of switching runs around. Week 1 was very soft, just to entice us in

16 x 200 in weeks 6 and 7 looks like a real heartbreaker. How did you get on with 12 x 200 in Week 2? (Same question to others following this plan)

Spirogyra

At what pace should a midweek (Thursday) long run be?.... could it be done as part of a club training session? 3 or 4 miles before and after ?.

adrian522

It depends what plan you are following, and what the purpose of the run is.

What is the Club session? Also what are you doing the day before and after the long run?