Marathon Improvers Thread.

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

I'm kind of following this, but between races and club sessions (Wednesdays) I am doing a lot of switching runs around. Week 1 was very soft, just to entice us in

16 x 200 in weeks 6 and 7 looks like a real heartbreaker. How did you get on with 12 x 200 in Week 2? (Same question to others following this plan)

I have missed a few of the speed sessions due to holidays etc. so cant really comment.
How important do you think the speed session is in the overall plan? I sometimes join a group speed session on the Tuesday however they do not do the same as the plan...would this matter much?

peterc14

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

I'm kind of following this, but between races and club sessions (Wednesdays) I am doing a lot of switching runs around. Week 1 was very soft, just to entice us in

16 x 200 in weeks 6 and 7 looks like a real heartbreaker. How did you get on with 12 x 200 in Week 2? (Same question to others following this plan)

The saturday sometimes calls for 3/4M inc hill session or circuit...does this mean run 3/4 miles at easy pace then complete a hill type workout? What would be a good hill workout?

JacEim

Wubble Wubble wrote: »

I'm kind of following this, but between races and club sessions (Wednesdays) I am doing a lot of switching runs around. Week 1 was very soft, just to entice us in

16 x 200 in weeks 6 and 7 looks like a real heartbreaker. How did you get on with 12 x 200 in Week 2? (Same question to others following this plan)

Hi
I'm doing the Asics 3:30 plan, but I tend to do any of the speed sessions on the treadmill for two reasons - I work away a lot and am typically in different hotels and also am crap at managing big pace changes like this.
I found this run pretty ok (considering that I could probably not run 5k in less than 21 mins at the minute). I ran them at 16kph and did a couple extra to allow for the fact that I was on the treadmill. I really felt like every muscle / tendon / ligament was fully stretched and flexible at the end of the session (which I don't feel like after doing a regular or LS run...). More importantly, the 5m session the night after was fine...

The Black Oil

Club LSR, be like.

Spirogyra

Ran 17 miles today, for the 3rd time in this 'cycle' and walked 1 .... at what point should I do 18 miles or 19 ? Don't want to 'burn out' too early ? with Dublin in mind.

Murph_D

Sounds about right for an improver marathon schedule. P&D 55 would be up to 18 miles 11 weeks out (next week). What schedule are you following, or are you winging it (sounds like you shouldn't be)?

Spirogyra

I'm not really following a 'fixed' plan, I'm more tailoring to my training schedule with my club and also some 'core classes'....I'm not sure whether I'm a Novice or Improver , probably more Improver.

Think though I will do 18 miles next weekend and do a 5K Fun Run the following Saturday for variety....

JohnDozer

Despite earlier posts suggesting I might have settled on doing the Boards plan, I did an about turn and launched into the P&D 55-70 plan. I'm currently debating dropping to the up to 55 plan after mesocycle 1. I've been able to do all the runs without any major problem bar a niggle related issue with the LT runs that doesn't affect me on any other runs, only on the LT runs. I've felt fatigued in general, but not overly so (I think). I haven't injured myself, but I do feel a little bit of buildup of tension in areas that suggest they are feeling the strain i.e. calves and achilles (These are not issues while running, more areas of tightness upon waking, and occasionally throughout the day). I guess I'm struggling to identify where the sweet spot is for what is normal fatigue and bodily strain while marathon training? Am I being a bit overly cautious and pulling the plug on a more ambitious plan a little too early, or is it simply an act of good self preservation and leaving the bigger more ambitious plan for another day out. I'll admit that my stretching and strengthening regime, while improved, is not what it should be. Diet and nutrition, while much improved are not what they should be. And lastly, keeping my runs in the recommended pace zones, while improved, are not what they should be.

Taking all that in consideration, my thinking is the 6 weeks has been a very good base building block, and that there is more to be gained by dropping to the 12 week up to 55 plan. (I might steal HBS's idea of squeezing in an extra 5 mile easy run on one rest day). All I'm throwing out there is the question that given I've been able to meet the requirements of the plan up to now, am I better off sticking with it for another couple of weeks to see how it goes, or make the call now based on the issues of concern outlined above.

hot buttered scones

JohnDozer wrote:

Taking all that in consideration, my thinking is the 6 weeks has been a very good base building block, and that there is more to be gained by dropping to the 12 week up to 55 plan. (I might steal HBS's idea of squeezing in an extra 5 mile easy run on one rest day). All I'm throwing out there is the question that given I've been able to meet the requirements of the plan up to now, am I better off sticking with it for another couple of weeks to see how it goes, or make the call now based on the issues of concern outlined above.

I was going to do to 55-70 plan but I was put off by the midweek back to back MLRs (hard to fit in with work) and the fact that I felt maybe 70 was a bit too much. But at the moment I'm sort of feeling like maybe I'm not doing enough. However, I think I felt the same at this point last year and then a couple of weeks into Mesocycle 2 I knee I was doing enough. You could always do what I'm doing, but do the long runs and VO2 max sessions from the 55-70 plans - there's an extra interval in them I think. But yeah, stick with the plan your on for another couple of weeks and see how you get on.

hot buttered scones

JohnDozer wrote:

I'll admit that my stretching and strengthening regime, while improved, is not what it should be. Diet and nutrition, while much improved are not what they should be. And lastly, keeping my runs in the recommended pace zones, while improved, are not what they should be.

Just wanted to add I'd say a lot of people (me especially!) could probably copy and paste these sentences into their own logs. Are you saying the paces are too fast or slow?? If they are too slow them maybe it's your goal that's the issue, and not the plan. If your running too fast - then stop. Especially for the recovery days. I don't think you can run too slowly on these days. Maybe if you sort this out, you might start feeling differently.
The LT sessions are tough though. I've considered maybe entering races and running them at LT pace, but getting through them on your own brings a bit of mental toughness. The 7 mile one is awful.
BTW you were asking about 10k warm up races in October. Did you check out the Croppy Boy 10k in Passage East in Waterford? Fits in with the first 10k tune up race and is on a Saturday. I'm thinking of that and maybe Donadea 2 weeks later.

JohnDozer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I was going to do to 55-70 plan but I was put off by the midweek back to back MLRs (hard to fit in with work) and the fact that I felt maybe 70 was a bit too much. But at the moment I'm sort of feeling like maybe I'm not doing enough. However, I think I felt the same at this point last year and then a couple of weeks into Mesocycle 2 I knee I was doing enough. You could always do what I'm doing, but do the long runs and VO2 max sessions from the 55-70 plans - there's an extra interval in them I think. But yeah, stick with the plan your on for another couple of weeks and see how you get on.

That seems quite similar to my mindset at the moment. Feel like the bigger mileage is just pushing it that little bit too much, but looking at the other plan and I don't feel like it suits me as well as this one. I'm not caught with shift work like you and I had gotten into the routine of getting up early and getting the runs done so no issue there. I might look at the hybrid of the two that you mentioned.

I was even thinking last night after I wrote the original post and I think a useful general discussion might be an answer to the two questions:-

How tired or fatigued in general should people feel when knee deep in marathon training. What is the baseline?

And what is an acceptable level of muscle stiffness and soreness to be dealing with?

I guess when I read people's descriptions of same I'll be able to judge my own situation a little better.

JohnDozer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Just wanted to add I'd say a lot of people (me especially!) could probably copy and paste these sentences into their own logs. Are you saying the paces are too fast or slow?? If they are too slow them maybe it's your goal that's the issue, and not the plan. If your running too fast - then stop. Especially for the recovery days. I don't think you can run too slowly on these days. Maybe if you sort this out, you might start feeling differently.
The LT sessions are tough though. I've considered maybe entering races and running them at LT pace, but getting through them on your own brings a bit of mental toughness. The 7 mile one is awful.
BTW you were asking about 10k warm up races in October. Did you check out the Croppy Boy 10k in Passage East in Waterford? Fits in with the first 10k tune up race and is on a Saturday. I'm thinking of that and maybe Donadea 2 weeks later.

I think the paces are a little quick, not excessively so, but I am conscious of the cumulative effect. Say the MLR's for example - should be in the 8:20 to 8:40 range but would have ended up averaging out at 8:10 to 8:15 on a few occasions. I do feel it's an issue I am getting a handle on. I'm doing the recovery runs by HR and generally well behaved and no issue here. The LT Sessions are challenging alright, but I find them doable. It's an ongoing niggle that flares up at that particular pace that causing me issues. I think the goal pace is fine. My PMP is 7:52ish and I've been targeting 7:08ish pace for the LT sessions but using the upper HR limit as the guide.

At the moment the race plan is:-
6 weeks out - Either Cork 10 and move weeks to suit or Charleville with first 5k as warmup and last 10 miles for unofficial 10 mile PB.
4 weeks out - Croppy Boy 10k or there is one in Colemanstown in Galway. I'm sure there will be other options closer the time. Croppy Boy seems to be the better option at present.
2 weeks out - Amsterdam 8k. My buddy is doing his first half over so I'm going to avail of the opportunity. (It's also an 'annual trip' that I don't want to lose the rights to with herself by not going!) The tricky part will be the 17 miler the following day. Laps of the Vondelpark might be where it's at.

Anyway, I digress. I'm paranoid. I don't want to overtrain. I don't feel like I am at present. But I also don't want it to sneak up on me and not realise it before it's too late. I am conscious that the plan is bigger than anything I've attempted before. That's all...

Murph_D

JohnDozer wrote: »

Anyway, I digress. I'm paranoid. I don't want to overtrain. I don't feel like I am at present. But I also don't want it to sneak up on me and not realise it before it's too late. I am conscious that the plan is bigger than anything I've attempted before. That's all...

What kind of base mileage did you have before starting the P&D70? In the recommended range? Sounds like you're overdoing it on a couple if levels, possibly (volume, intensity etc.)

Apologies if you posted this already.

Baxtardo

I'm trying to get a handle on the various paces for the P&D 55 plan also.

PMP: 5:00 m/km

LT Pace: 4:30 m/km

General Aerobic: 5:20 - 5:30 m/km

Long Run: 5:30 - 5:40 m/km

Recovery Run: Slow enough as to maintain a low HR, 5:40 m/km or so.

I've been able to maintain these paces no problem but a bit worried I'm not dropping the pace enough on some of the runs?

The P&D plan says long runs should be 10-20% slower than PMP. This doesn't seem to be slow enough to classify it as a LSR going from then novice plan, or is it?

JohnDozer

Murph_D wrote: »

What kind of base mileage did you have before starting the P&D70? In the recommended range? Sounds like you're overdoing it on a couple if levels, possibly (volume, intensity etc.)

Apologies if you posted this already.

I was happy enough with where the mileage was at. I've looked back at April- May- June on Strava and the weekly mileage would have gone like this 43, 47, 50, 41, 31, 48, 50, 51, 50, 3.2 (back injury), 53, 55, 55.

I was running at least one 10 miler most of these weeks with a good few longer ones as well. April was leading up to the Limerick Half. Did another half in May and June was mainly focussed on building mileage with a few interval sessions thrown in there and long runs of 13, 14 and 2 X 16's.

So I suppose it doesn't read like the mileage itself was too big of a jump to make? It may be the frequency of the 10 mile plus runs that's causing the doubts.

28064212

Baxtardo wrote: »

The P&D plan says long runs should be 10-20% slower than PMP. This doesn't seem to be slow enough to classify it as a LSR going from then novice plan, or is it?

Did you read the book? They're quite explicit that their long runs are not LSRs, and very clearly lay out how the long ones should be run

Baxtardo

28064212 wrote: »

Did you read the book? They're quite explicit that their long runs are not LSRs, and very clearly lay out how the long ones should be run

I have the book but haven't come across a comparison between long runs and LSRs. The plan is going well so far, would just like to understand how the structure of this plan means you don't need to do weekly runs at LSR pace. I'll have a dig through and see what I can find!

JohnDozer

Baxtardo wrote: »

I have the book but haven't come across a comparison between long runs and LSRs. The plan is going well so far, would just like to understand how the structure of this plan means you don't need to do weekly runs at LSR pace. I'll have a dig through and see what I can find!

The book won't make a direct comparison for you, it's more implicit that doing the long runs as described in the book is superior to the 'time on the feet' approach of novice or beginner plans that you mentioned. It presumes that you're stepping up a gear in your approach and able to handle doing the long runs a bit faster and getting maximum benefit from them. It does describe starting out the long run at the lower end of the pace range and working your way up to the upper pace limit by the end. So if you are staying within the range, I wouldn't be too worried...

I can't comment on your paces that you outlined above as they are in km's but if you've done the calculations as per the book there shouldn't be any issue.

denis b

JohnDozer wrote: »

The book won't make a direct comparison for you, it's more implicit that doing the long runs as described in the book is superior to the 'time on the feet' approach of novice or beginner plans that you mentioned. It presumes that you're stepping up a gear in your approach and able to handle doing the long runs a bit faster and getting maximum benefit from them. It does describe starting out the long run at the lower end of the pace range and working your way up to the upper pace limit by the end. So if you are staying within the range, I wouldn't be too worried...

I can't comment on your paces that you outlined above as they are in km's but if you've done the calculations as per the book there shouldn't be any issue.

That is certainly my approach on the Sunday Long Run for the P&D up to 55 mls. Our current PMP are the same so on that basis I would say that your LR Pace Range (mine- 6:13 to 5:43) and Recovery Pace (Usually around 6:00/km and managed in conjunction with hr) are too fast. I am also using the HR data for pace guidance so that may account for some difference between us. Let me know as the comparison would be useful.

Apologies Baxtardo and JohnDozer: I should have also quoted Baxtardo at post #256 for continuity of this point.

Murph_D

JohnDozer wrote: »

I was happy enough with where the mileage was at. I've looked back at April- May- June on Strava and the weekly mileage would have gone like this 43, 47, 50, 41, 31, 48, 50, 51, 50, 3.2 (back injury), 53, 55, 55.

I was running at least one 10 miler most of these weeks with a good few longer ones as well. April was leading up to the Limerick Half. Did another half in May and June was mainly focussed on building mileage with a few interval sessions thrown in there and long runs of 13, 14 and 2 X 16's.

So I suppose it doesn't read like the mileage itself was too big of a jump to make? It may be the frequency of the 10 mile plus runs that's causing the doubts.

Well they specify 45 miles per week as the pre-plan base, which you seem to have. They also mention that you should be ready to start off with a 15 mile LR and 4m tempo.

I think the 55m plan would be fine for your marathon goal anyway. But to answer your original question, I think it's normal to feel tired during marathon training, The muscle soreness/fatigue is another thing though - a few twinges here and there would be normal for me, but not to the point you describe. And if LT specific pace is giving you gyp, maybe the pace is wrong, or maybe it's too long for your current fitness state? Either way, dropping down is probably a good idea given the various issues.

hot buttered scones

Baxtardo wrote: »

I'm trying to get a handle on the various paces for the P&D 55 plan also.

PMP: 5:00 m/km

LT Pace: 4:30 m/km

General Aerobic: 5:20 - 5:30 m/km

Long Run: 5:30 - 5:40 m/km

Recovery Run: Slow enough as to maintain a low HR, 5:40 m/km or so.

I've been able to maintain these paces no problem but a bit worried I'm not dropping the pace enough on some of the runs?

The P&D plan says long runs should be 10-20% slower than PMP. This doesn't seem to be slow enough to classify it as a LSR going from then novice plan, or is it?

28064212 wrote: »

Did you read the book? They're quite explicit that their long runs are not LSRs, and very clearly lay out how the long ones should be run

JohnDozer wrote: »

The book won't make a direct comparison for you, it's more implicit that doing the long runs as described in the book is superior to the 'time on the feet' approach of novice or beginner plans that you mentioned. It presumes that you're stepping up a gear in your approach and able to handle doing the long runs a bit faster and getting maximum benefit from them. It does describe starting out the long run at the lower end of the pace range and working your way up to the upper pace limit by the end. So if you are staying within the range, I wouldn't be too worried...

I can't comment on your paces that you outlined above as they are in km's but if you've done the calculations as per the book there shouldn't be any issue.

denis b wrote: »

That is certainly my approach on the Sunday Long Run for the P&D up to 55 mls. Our current PMP are the same so on that basis I would say that your LR Pace Range (mine- 6:13 to 5:43) and Recovery Pace (Usually around 6:00/km and managed in conjunction with hr) are too fast. I am also using the HR data for pace guidance so that may account for some difference between us. Let me know as the comparison would be useful.

Apologies Baxtardo and JohnDozer: I should have also quoted Baxtardo at post #256 for continuity of this point.

I'm probably repeating what everyone else has said - the book says long runs are to start out at MP+20% and to gradually build the pace so that you finish out the last few miles @MP + 10%. He also says that long runs a race (3 tune up races in the plan) should be started off like a recovery run and if you loosen up then finish it out at MP+15% to 20%. The long run is really your second session of the week (or your 3rd if you count the medium long run).

Murph_D

I think the above is a crucial point. Some P&D LRs are progressive, some are not. Many novices overcook or undercook the long run. Improvers tend to overcook (too fast).

Hanson is similar - some LRs easier than others, depending on context. It's important to read the reasoning behind the paces. Then re-read when, like me, you've already forgotten.

Getting LRs right is a big part of getting to the next stage!

peterc14

Singer wrote: »

Is https://www.chooseachallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-3.30.pdf what you're doing?

:eek:

To anyone using the above plan...how did the 12 x 400m go yesterday? I got them done not too bad though can feel the legs a little tender today.

Wubble Wubble

peterc14 wrote: »

To anyone using the above plan...how did the 12 x 400m go yesterday? I got them done not too bad though can feel the legs a little tender today.

Didn't do the 400s I'm afraid. I'm running the R'n'R Half on Sunday, so it'll be just tonight's club session this week.

16 x 200 the next two Tuesdays though :eek:

Van.Bosch

I see that plan has 3*20 and one 22, which is a lot compared to other plans, P&D for example has 3*20.

What are people's thoughts on going past 20 to 21/22?

Wubble Wubble

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I see that plan has 3*20 and one 22, which is a lot compared to other plans, P&D for example has 3*20.

What are people's thoughts on going past 20 to 21/22?

It is a lot compared to P & D, however it is quite low in terms of overall mileage IMO. I was very surprised to find a sub 3:30 plan with a high of under 50 mpw.

JohnDozer

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I see that plan has 3*20 and one 22, which is a lot compared to other plans, P&D for example has 3*20.

What are people's thoughts on going past 20 to 21/22?

I know there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no need to go beyond 20 miles in training. There is even plenty of evidence to suggest running 20 miles isn't even necessary. I think for me though, I would like the confidence of having done 22 in training before the race itself.

However, if the 22 miler goes badly, that could/ would have a very negative impact on the confidence levels. Everyone is different though. Plenty of people have gotten fine results just having one or two 20 milers done.

Murph_D

JohnDozer wrote: »

...

Plenty of people have gotten fine results just having one or two 20 milers done.

Or none - the Hanson marathon plan tops out at 16 miles.

I've done a few 22 mile LRs myself and wouldn't go beyond 20 in future. You're just flogging yourself.

hot buttered scones

JohnDozer wrote: »

I know there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no need to go beyond 20 miles in training. There is even plenty of evidence to suggest running 20 miles isn't even necessary. I think for me though, I would like the confidence of having done 22 in training before the race itself.

However, if the 22 miler goes badly, that could/ would have a very negative impact on the confidence levels. Everyone is different though. Plenty of people have gotten fine results just having one or two 20 milers done.

Murph_D wrote: »

Or none - the Hanson marathon plan tops out at 16 miles.

I've done a few 22 mile LRs myself and wouldn't go beyond 20 in future. You're just flogging yourself.

I'd have to agree with Murph_D there. The last two miles are just torture. 20 is more than enough for me anyway. I'd probably think the same as JohnDozer in terms of a confidence boost - but I would get that from the 20 milers. My long run sweet spot seems to be between 16 and 18 miles - timewise that would be around 2:25 to around 2:40. The 20 milers take me around 3 hours and that's where the confidence comes from for me - not the distance but time on the feet. A 22 miler would mean I was out for probably close to my goal time and leaves me a lot more fatigued than 20 miles, and just isn't worth it for me.
P+D up to 55 has "only" 3 20 milers, but it has 11 runs of 16 miles+, 3 of which have a lot of MP. For a confidence booster you can't do better than 18 with 14@MP - better than any 22 miler in my experience.

Baxtardo

Murph_D wrote: »

I think the above is a crucial point. Some P&D LRs are progressive, some are not. Many novices overcook or undercook the long run. Improvers tend to overcook (too fast).

Hanson is similar - some LRs easier than others, depending on context. It's important to read the reasoning behind the paces. Then re-read when, like me, you've already forgotten.

Getting LRs right is a big part of getting to the next stage!

I am now on of those people - ran a long run at MP over the weekend (felt good, ignored the plan etc.) and after doing a LT session on Monday am now dealing with a high hamstring strain. It has improved a decent bit since yesterday, however lesson most definitely learnt. Follow the plan!