Restoring The Document Lost In The Four Courts Blaze

mikefoxo

We all know about the great loss of manuscripts etc. during the Civil War when the Four Courts was set ablaze, but has any attempt been made to gather copies of documents from other sites to rebuild an archive? No doubt many were one offs and gone forever, but surely there are copies to be found in different archives, especially in Britain. Is there a list of all the stuff that was destroyed? And what exactly was destroyed?

tabbey

The Public Record Office was blown up in the Four Courts during the civil war. The other component of the National Archives, namely the State Paper Office, was located in Dublin Castle, so was unaffected.

The PRO contained many types of unique records, but from a researcher's point of view, the census forms pre 1901 and original wills pre 1906, were lost, as well as other will documents from the Dublin registry. Wills proved in other district registries were less affected as they were transcribed locally and these transcripts survived.

Regarding census forms, some of the early ones had been already pulped on government orders, in the belief that the details had been transcribed, as in Britain.

Following the catastrophe, solicitor firms sometimes donated will documents that were in their possesion, but these were a minority. Extracts, of documents, such as those by Gertrude Thrift, and others, were very helpful, but could not replace the originals.

Remember any copies of documents were ones that had been transcribed by hand.

pinkypinky

The Irish Manuscripts Commission was set up as a response and works to bring documents in other repositories into the public domain.

On a genealogical level, the Irish Genealogical Research Society was also set up in London as a response, by an Irish priest, and they have collected material in the UK relating to Irish people ever since.

In the immediate aftermath, there was a call for libraries, solicitors, etc, to submit original material for copying and return. This did happen but probably only to a small degree.

There are huge lists of what was lost because the finding aids were not stored in the Records Treasury, which was blown up. A lot of court records were also destroyed. 2/3 of all Church of Ireland records were destroyed. They were in the PRO because the CoI was the Established Church until 1870 and so their records were public property. However, parishes that could store their records securely often did, so not all were lost.

pedroeibar1

It was not ‘set ablaze’, it was mined and blown up, the explosion did huge damage and started the fire. It was a deliberate act of wanton destruction, similar to what ISIS has done to many artefacts in the Middle East. Early Irish manuscripts, scorched and tattered, rained out of the sky reaching places as far away as Howth.

An irreparable blow was delivered to the compilation of national and local history, not by an alien government or by careless officials, but by Irishmen claiming to be patriots, who blew up the Record Office in 1922’ Cork Examiner, 18 November 1947

To add to what Tabby & Pinky have written above, the Census returns of 1821, 1831, 1841, and 1851 were destroyed, those for the next four decades were the ones pulped.

The Irish Manuscripts Commission was created to build a ‘cultural/historical’ foundation for the new State, as ‘history’ as a study was not in a good place in that era. Eoin MacNeil, Professor of History at UCD (and co-founder of the Gaelic League, founder of the Irish Volunteers, who also called off the 1916 Rising) was concerned that the record of ‘Irish history’ was being tainted by politics and religion rather than historical fact. He was the driving force behind the creation of the IMC, setting out to rebuild primary sources to rebut ‘pseudo-history’ rather than to replace the documents lost in the Four Courts. Similarly, the Irish Folklore Commission was founded a few years later to record local lore to help establish a Nationalist cultural identity.
The first attempt to re-build the lost genealogical archives was the creation of the Irish Genealogical Research Society (IGRS).

The founding members were deeply concerned at the loss of much material of genealogical value and their priority was to collect copies of materials compiled prior to the destruction of the Public Record Office in Dublin in 1922. The core of our unique reference library was formed from the personal collection of both printed and manuscript materials which belonged to the Irish genealogist, Father Wallace Clare, the founder of the Society and its very first Fellow.

Read about the history of the IGRS here.
Several of its members continue to lead the way with projects such as the Registry of Deeds name transcription project

Several of the posters over on the Genealogy board are members.

mikefoxo

Sorry, just to get this straight. The records were deliberately destroyed? By the anti-treaty IRA persons who seized the Four Courts? I was under the impression that they had stored their ammunition in the "strong room", which, when shelled by the Army, accidentally caught fire and blew up

pedroeibar1

mikefoxo wrote: »

Sorry, just to get this straight. The records were deliberately destroyed? By the anti-treaty IRA persons who seized the Four Courts? I was under the impression that they had stored their ammunition in the "strong room", which, when shelled by the Army, accidentally caught fire and blew up

A group of those opposed to the Treaty occupied the Four Courts. They were outgunned and heavily outnumbered yet chose to fight it out. A key installation such as the Four Courts, the seat of justice of the newly-freed country, could not be left in rebel hands so it had to be taken. There are two stories – one is that it was ‘accidental’ – that ‘coincidentally’ the archive was used for storing ammunition and the shelling caused it to blow up, the other is that it was deliberately mined. Take your pick.

Personally, I believe that the intensity of and destruction caused by the explosion clearly suggest a deliberate act; randomly stacked ammunition boxes do not demolish an entire wing of a building. Furthermore, why store ammunition relatively far away (in the PRO at the very back of the building) from those using it? Considerable public opprobrium followed the destruction. This IMO led to the claims that it was ‘accidental’ and it was all the fault of the Treaty-ites who should not have shelled the building.

Dr.Nightdub

Pedro, as well as ammunition, the anti-Treatyites also had two tons of gelignite stored in the Four Courts, plus there was a lorry loaded with mines and explosives, ready for despatch up to Donegal to be used by the Munster anti-Treatyites sent up there to take part in the "Northern offensive" - that too was blown up in the shelling.

I know Ernie O'Malley was hardly a dispassionate observer, but reading his account in "The Singing Flame", it would seem that shelling by the pro-Treaty side had set the roof on fire, the flames and sparks from this then set off the ammunition and explosives stored below. Neither side actually set out to destroy the contents of the PRO, at worst they were cavalier with regard to protecting them, but then both sides had more weighty matters on their minds.

pedroeibar1

Dr.Nightdub wrote: »

Pedro, as well as ammunition, the anti-Treatyites also had two tons of gelignite stored in the Four Courts, plus there was a lorry loaded with mines and explosives, ready for despatch up to Donegal to be used by the Munster anti-Treatyites sent up there to take part in the "Northern offensive" - that too was blown up in the shelling.

I know Ernie O'Malley was hardly a dispassionate observer, but reading his account in "The Singing Flame", it would seem that shelling by the pro-Treaty side had set the roof on fire, the flames and sparks from this then set off the ammunition and explosives stored below. Neither side actually set out to destroy the contents of the PRO, at worst they were cavalier with regard to protecting them, but then both sides had more weighty matters on their minds.

Thanks Doc but I’m not going to go there. I shoot, so I have reasonable understanding of ballistics and explosives so know a little about what happens when ammunition is ‘cooked off’. The notion that a mine (or mines), loaded in a car parked in the open could cause that level of damage is a non-starter. To be effective, explosives must be packed in a confined space. Nor will gelignite explode without a detonator, it will just burn. There is a mention in Hemingway od partisans paring off some to start a camp fire to brew coffee.
It was a horrible period in Ireland’s history. On my paternal side my grandfather, granduncle and two grandaunts were ‘active’ in the War of Indep. All but the former get mentioned in Breen, Treacy, et al. My grandfather arguably had the most important role, but curiously he and the grandaunts (that pair were couriers/operated a dead letter drop) never made BMH statements. Not one of them participated in the Civil War – they had had enough. When they were alive I was too young to ask the right questions…….although they might not have answered impertinent questions from a young brat like me!

dubhthach

A picture paints a thousand words...

tabbey

Are the people in the PRO picture researchers or staff? or is there any caption/ clues?

mikefoxo

Just finished watching 'Michael Collins', feeling a bit rough

pedroeibar1

tabbey wrote: »

Are the people in the PRO picture researchers or staff? or is there any caption/ clues?

My guess would be mostly (if not all) staff. It's unlikely that there would have been many researchers exploring the PRO back them.

tabbey

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

My guess would be mostly (if not all) staff. It's unlikely that there would have been many researchers exploring the PRO back them.

I suppose everybody in the office posed for the camera, it being a rare opportunity at that time.
It also resembles the NAI of 2017,when the staff sit around the reading room tables for the cameras on the first business day of the year, pretending to be the public studying newly released files.

pedroeibar1

:)Very posed and not a brown coat in sight!

Full Marx

Comparing the IRA to ISIS and making claims without anything to back it up (I shoot, really??) is hardly the type of comment worthy of a proper discussion forum.

pedroeibar1

Full Marx wrote: »

Comparing the IRA to ISIS and making claims without anything to back it up (I shoot, really??) is hardly the type of comment worthy of a proper discussion forum.

If you are going to quote something you might have the courtesy to get it correct. What was said about the destruction of the PRO was

“It was a deliberate act of wanton destruction, similar to what ISIS has done to many artefacts in the Middle East.”

That was the full context and is an accurate depiction of peasant cultures in both societies. As for other examples of wanton destruction, you might like to look at the number of buildings that were burned down after the Truce, acts of arson that frequently were committed to disguise looting.

Anti-Treaty IRA units, because they were militarily impotent, resorted to destroying houses viewed as symbols of British order in Ireland. Those burnings also were ordered by IRA GHQ (particulary by Chief of Staff Liam Lynch) in reprisal for the Free State execution policy that began in November 1922. All that is documented, books have been written on the topic, go read them and if you want to dig deeper, look at the files in the National Archives to see the lists of what was stolen/looted before the houses were torched.

Most people who shoot store ammunition at home and are aware of safety concerns and what could happen in a house fire. Clearly you have no idea about explosives or what happens to gelignite or ammunition when heat is applied. Gelignite, without a priming charge is, unless it is very old, a stable compound and it can without harm safely be dropped, banged or thrown, or even burnt in chunks.

Strange that you return here after a year just to have a pop and as is usual with your posts you add nothing but a bit of back seat modding. No point in engaging with a username that has an agenda and would appear to espouse rather dated and failed principles. Bye.

Full Marx

You have provided no evidence that it was deliberate or wanton destruction. I'm afraid "I shoot guns and have stored ammunition" does not pass even the lowest thresholds of proof or evidence. Furthermore referring to unconnected burnings by the IRA offers little in the way of evidence, in fact it goes against your case given that the IRA admitted this activity and in some instances may have been a deliberate tactic. Why would they deny destroying the four courts?

Shelling the four courts however most definitely was a deliberate act of destruction, carried out by free state forces.

As for your dig at my username, well, it seems some are still haunted by the spectre.