Finding Shotgun

career move

Super stuff Mike

shotgunmcos

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

So if you don't mind me picking holes in your post- who decided 150-160 was the goal zone, and why didn't you stick to it? If you were to run the race again knowing what you do, would you aim for a higher HR?

Thanks Paul and absolutely not, poke away please. It's something I like about the boards community and I've done the same on your log. I nearly expected pgibbo to pick that up before you!

150-160 is simply the MP zone by P&D. However I know my own aerobic and anaerobic thresholds. Aerobic would be around 164 and anaerobic around 173. This based on test data from when I was fit. The Marathon zone would be capped at <173 but that is exceptions, going up a hill. In reality and based on actual marathon pb data my marathon range once warmed up over a few miles would be 154-169 with a 165avg.

A few things on that
1. I'm only using heart rate to track progress to getting fit. Once I hit certain milestones it becomes secondary. The Marathon program will be governed by pace and starts in 6 months so I have time to try stuff.
2. I'm not that fit so I took the goal zone it back a few beats to round it to a 150-160 zone. I could probably finish 26 miles in that zone now so the plan was to do that and just see what the pace was. Also it was a control for me as I always get too excited at the start of a race. Why didn't I stick to the plan? It was warm today and hilly. I had some beers last night and the cycle in my legs. I knew the first 2 miles were too much. I was wheezing. I genuinely pulled back to target zone but I fought the natural instinct to race too. I brought it back to 159-162 and told myself I could average that. I really did back off if I saw 167-170 on the watch. I guess I was trying to bring it back but when I passed 4th I just pressed on a bit to create a gap. Did the same when I passed 3rd.
3. I spent 56% in Z3 and 44% in Z4. Just 16secs in the red zone and that was the steep bank on the grounds at the finish. Overall it was aerobic and about the ratio I'd expect for the marathon.

If I were to run the race again, and fresh, knowing what I know I'd target 154-164 instead knowing I can hold it for 13m. If I were going for a pb obviously I'd still aim for that but build it up from 3 miles out. I'll likely do another half marathon this year when fitter.

Kurt.Godel

Great answer, glad I asked as I learned a lot from it.

You have more focus lately than the last few years, great to see. Happy hunting.

shotgunmcos

Friday 22 June

A whopping 2.37 miles @8:27/mi
Hr 125/145 and just 20min.
Hardly worth posting. Got out of the tent at 6. Was going to do 4m recovery to flush out the legs but the estate gate was locked. Did 2 laps of the off road bit from yesterday really easy. Quads feeling it. Was going to do Yoga this evening but kids finally down after an epic bedtime story and I'm bushed. No doubt I'll be carrying fatigue to the long run this weekend. The weather forecast looks brilliant but running needs to be done early morning to avoid that heat.

shotgunmcos

Saturday 23 June

Open Water Swim League: Thomond Swim 1,800m
Besides the running focus I considered a few open water swim events over the summer for variety. There is a Munster league of 10 or so events with best 6 to score. Realistically I doubt I'll make that many but a bit of fun. Today was a local one in the city up and down between 3 bridges. About a 100 or so entered and more than half skins (no wetsuit). I'm nowhere near my best swim shape so finishing was my goal. It was a beautiful warm sunny day and I was tempted to go skins. Its been over 2 years since I swam OW though so I thought I'd rather practice a skins swim before doing an event. Some emails came out from the committee and there is up 3mins difference between one's skin and wetsuit handicap. The suit helps but not that much for me but Suit it was today.

I was given a 5min handicap and while waiting for my group to start chatted with a proper swim body. A former competitive US collegiate swimmer with a 17min handicap focused (with a perfect smile) on hunting down everyone ahead of her! Surely she wouldn't make up 12mins on me over 1,800m. I entered the water with 3 others on 5mins and the water was lovely. I sort of regretted the suit. It had been a pain to put on too since I'm heavier than my triathlon days. We set off and I just pushed on. We had to keep to the left of huge yellow buoys, easy least but I still made a balls of my line. I should have studied the course too. After a few mins I got used to sighting and picking a line again and began passing people.

I basically swam up and down the river passing everyone in front bar one skins guy who went off 1min30. I was catching him but ran out of course. Happily I wasn't passed and finished in 32:07. Not great but the best I could muster from the shape I'm in. I had to leave soon after chatting with some friendly faces so no idea where I finished. It was a swim event with predominantly masters or club swimmers with a few triathletes mixed in so I'd be genuinely pleased with anything above mid table.

In truth by 1km I was toast and just pushed well into the pain cave to finish. I was pretty tired after. I had an easy short run planned for this evening but after spending a few hours out in the garden with the kids I'm only fit for bed! The fatigue undoubtedly lingering from 3 nights in a tent with the midweek duathlon event.

shotgunmcos

Sunday 24 June

Weekly Wash Up and Block Summary

Run 4x, 3hrs49 and 30.41 miles
Bike 1x, 4hrs30 and 116km
Swim 1x, 0hrs32 and 1,800m OW
Yoga 1x, 0hrs20
Total 9hrs11

Middle of the night but I went to sleep at 8pm after the kids went down. No long run. Opted for a lie in and day at the beach to recharge. I'm not in race shape but fit enough to do a long bike, half marathon event and open water swim race this week. Results didn't matter, I feel good enough to start training with some focus.

Overall 276 miles in this short 7 week block, similar number to the combined 5 previous months. Just 39 miles/week average but I started week 1 on 27m and gradually built to 50m. I got a long run going and up to 2 hours and am now running 4-5 times a week. My supplementary stuff has been yoga and the odd swim and row. Since I've had the last few days off I'll use this week to transition to the next block.


The next block: Block #2 - Building Base and Benchmarking - July to September

Volume: back up to c50m per week. Try the odd 60-70m week to see how the body responds
Aerobic Base: Keep the main volume % as easy miles capped at Z2. Incorporate a 3 mile aerobic base test every 2-3 weeks to track progress
Weight: No drastic changes. Fuel sessions and the training should gradually bring it down
Long Runs: Maintain at max 2hrs. This is not a marathon block. Once heart rate starts to come down, incorporate some longer intervals or hill reps for strength
Benchmarks: sub19 5k, sub40 10k and sub90 half marathon either events or time trials. No target races.

shotgunmcos

Monday 25 June

Easy Run 6.35 miles @7:34/mi and some Yoga
Out with the birds to start the run focus after a mixed week. I fell asleep at 8 last night at woke up at 2, dozed for an hour. Couldn't get back to sleep so did a few jobs then laced up for a quiet run along the riverbank in town. I love getting out at this time. At least 6 plane streaks across a still sky and the sun was rising above the tree line. The riverbank route is sheltered for about 2 miles but that would be gone under a midday sun. The first mile 8:03 was sluggish and sleepy. It felt like the blood hadn't circulated properly yet and I was trying to drag unwilling legs up the road. Next 2 miles a bit quick so I dialled it back to easy after the turn for home. Cadence 84 which is ok for first thing in the morning. I noticed I can run up hills a bit further before my heart rate hits the cap so progress each week.

25 mins Yoga with Adrienne afterwards with Zoe and her teddy chatting to me throughout. When I finished the session she asked why I did no plank or down dog. We subsequently added those before breakfast. My new Manduka Pro yoga mat arrived and is undergoing the salt treatment out on the decking. It needs frequent use now to justify the cost.

shotgunmcos

Monday 25 June Session 2

Aerobic Z2 Row & Recovery check
I set the session for 21,097m (half marathon) and a 90min pace boat. The idea is keep up with the pace boat for as long as I can until the cardiac drift hits the Z2 cap. I stop on the first stroke after the hr touches 156. The session tells me in numbers what I should know about my condition and aerobic recovery from last wek. It won't generally seek out running niggles but is a good barometer for the week ahead

• Complete the half marathon and I'm fresh
• 60min good and 70+ very good
• 40-50mins and 10-12,000m is normal
• <40mins is not good and I'm still feeling the long run or something else
• <30mins and I'm pretty fatigued, Ill or injured and not ready for the plan

Pretty tired all afternoon since I've been awake since 3am. Even more so after putting the kids to bed. I set the erg up on the decking but sat on the couch for nearly 10mins debating whether to do it or just go to bed. Eventually I jumped on thinking I'd be off again in less than 30mins.

However 1:27:27 later I had completed the half marathon, 21,097m! I just found a zone and kept going. It took concentration but I held it rock steady for 1,766 strokes. Clearly I was just sleepy but there was plenty of energy in the muscles and you feel most of them on the rower. Very surprised but very pleased. Lower volume and a rest day yesterday instead of a long run was a factor.

Edit: Swim result from Saturday - 24th out of 97 swimmers. I'll take that! I'd have bagged a category prize if I wasn't late registering. Not bad for a measly one swim a week!

Huzzah!

shotgunmcos wrote: »

25 mins Yoga with Adrienne afterwards with Zoe and her teddy chatting to me throughout. When I finished the session she asked why I did no plank or down dog. We subsequently added those before breakfast. My new Manduka Pro yoga mat arrived and is undergoing the salt treatment out on the decking. It needs frequent use now to justify the cost.

Love my Manduka but be warned, it took a fair amount of breaking in. Another reason to use it frequently!

shotgunmcos

Tuesday 26 June
Man its warm out there!

26 degrees and sunny is a bit warm for running but its meant to be 28 degrees by the time I get out of work so a window at lunch had to do. 5.1 miles @7:38/mi. I just couldn't keep my heart rate down hills unless I walked but I was under a little pressure to get back for a meeting. Although my heart rate is mainly Z2 I think I'm running these "Easy" miles a bit too fast. The pace is right where it should be when fit, but I'm still building towards that. I find it hard to slow down when I'm pushing the cadence. This run felt sluggish but the cadence was 83.5, not awful and the pace felt slower than 7:38. I still feel I should dial it back a little. I had to have a cold shower to help cool down and bring the towel back to my desk anyway. The body was feeling that row last night.

Huzzah! wrote: »

Love my Manduka but be warned, it took a fair amount of breaking in. Another reason to use it frequently!

I covered it in sea salt and left is for 36 hours. It took a while to wipe it down but I'll have my first session with it later. Its wider and much heavier than my current mat which is exactly what I needed.

shotgunmcos

Tuesday 26 June Session 2

Easy Run 6.25 miles @7:52/mi
Very warm, muggy and windy evening, still over 26 degrees at 7pm. Quite a laboured effort. Slowed it down but and the effort was slightly less than lunchtime. Hr 144/160 vs 148/168 earlier today. A few hills that I found challenging, a little out of breath. Asthma acting up in the humidity. Kept the cadence at 83.5 for the slower pace but still felt sluggish. I planned to start some Intensity on Tuesdays but no chance in the heat today. I don't normally do intervals at dawn but may just have to if this gorgeous weather keeps up. Just keeping a lid on it today. Plan to do the parkrun on Saturday and expecting some improvement in the 21:36 from 8 weeks ago.

shotgunmcos

Wednesday 27 June

Swim Session, Pool 2,500m
A bit late so short warm up. The fish were either out in the river or tapering for the Hell of the West, leaving me to lead out 3 others in the "fast" lane for..
3x 300m with 40sec rest, pace 1:42-1:45
3x 200m with 30sec rest, pace 1:40-1:41
3x 100m with 20sec rest, pace 1:39-1:40
400m easy at 1:49 pace

Nothing fast about those reps. I felt tired but that was it for the day so kept the pace steady. A bit of short fast 50s on the board for a finish but I wound down with 400m easy instead. I didn't have another gear. The work run group thought about a run today but with temps at 30 degrees in Limerick, everyone bailed.

shotgunmcos

Thursday 28 June
Scorchiooooo!

8.21 miles this morning as 3m Easy, 2m Tempo and 3.21m Easy
Wow even at 7am it was warm. I headed for an out and back that I know is mostly shaded. The first mile felt horrible. Legs heavily, lazy sluggish cadence and I didn't want to know about it. 5 minutes later mid mile 2, I woke up and started to enjoy the sights and sounds of life beginning in the city. I circled the river over 2 bridges before starting the tempo.

The goal was to hold 6:40 pace but that's not a pace the legs know yet. The Garmin was up and down so when it hit 6:40 I tried to internalize that effort and hold on. 6:29 for the first mile, too quick and I found it challenging. 6:36 for the next mile and it took some focus. Max hr 168 so just 2 miles at planned MP had me well above the aerobic threshold. It was just 13 minutes tempo but a bit of a shock to the system. I rarely do intensity in the morning and empty but I simply have to SIU and get used to it. While I'm happy to get this done before work it was a real reminder just how far away from the marathon effort and fitness I am.

shotgunmcos

Friday 29 June

Easy Run 7.47 miles @7:48/mi
Hmm... swim or run this morning. As much as I love swimming its run focus now. The river water temps are like a bath so I'd be better off with an open water dip this weekend if I can. Anyway again, it was already 22 degrees by 7:30 so best get the run down now while there was still some early morning shade.

I like running in the morning, much prefer it actually.
The 5-7 slot. My preference. You nearly have the roads to yourself. I can run on the roads instead of concrete paths. I love running down the quays and seeing the swans still curled up asleep floating, the odd acknowledgement from other dawn runners, the dawn chorus, the rising sun and relaxed breakfast
The 7-9 slot. Only if I have to. Sleepy drivers not looking or coffee drivers rushing. Dodging cyclists, stopping at lights, limited time before I join the rising traffic after swallowing a smaller breakfast

It was just after 7 this morning. I felt wretched for the first mile and a half as usual. At least it makes me run slow. I had a small tightness on the left quad which eased out during the run. It was warm and little hope of keeping the heart rate down on hills without walking but overall I kept a lid on it and felt better by the end that that horrible first mile. Arrived back to Zoe and Mommy having a stand off so had to deal with that while dripping with sweat. I had about 15 minutes to eat something, shower and join the rush after they left. Back to that 5-7 slot next week...

shotgunmcos

Saturday 30 June

8.54 miles including Parkrun in a new PB

Limerick parkrun results for event #125. Your time was 00:20:26.
Congratulations on completing your 2nd parkrun and your 2nd at Limerick parkrun today. You finished in 5th place and were the 5th male out of a field of 64 parkrunners and you came 1st in your age category VM40-44.

I did the same Parkrun at the start of the last block. 21:36 or 6:57/mi
Today was 20:26 or 6:35/mi. So overall a good improvement.
Splits 6:23, 6:34, 6:47, still a fade but nowhere near as bad. After lap 1 and the first mile my heart rate hit 182. Red line already! I settled a little and lost a place a lap later. The top 3 lads bolted off to low to mid 18s. The 4th place lad got about 50m ahead and stayed there. I could not reel him in. Speed and fitness not there to up a gear. Avg HR was 174 and I spent 15mins in the red zone so about as good as I could do at this point. It was sunny and pretty warm and not many got PBs. I walked another lap with Caz and the kids then did 3 miles very easy to flush out the lactic. Happy with the progress and next time will be a go at sub 20.

shotgunmcos

Sunday 01 July

Long Run 16.06 miles at 7:37/mi
Another 2hr run banked. Most valuable one so far for what I learned Over the same first half of the GLR route. Cadence a decent 85, progress. I felt tired heading out at 7 after an hour of colouring, play do and games with Zoe. It was cool, muggy and windy. Coffee and water and no bowel trouble during the run, progress 2. Fastest pace for avg 145hr, progress 3. Kept it steady but the last 5 miles were physically and mentally challenging. The last 2 miles really felt like the end of a marathon, progress 4 simulating effort. Mile 15 was mainly uphill and really tough then I pushed the last mile in 7:09. Wrecked for a finish but not broken. Just fatigued from my biggest run week ever and of course the red zone 5k effort yesterday. It was probably a good rehearsal for a Hansons program type LR. Brings on the key objective for next week. Easy =Easy!

Week summary, an attempt at a table on a tablet
Run x7|7hrs23|57.98 miles|5k PB and all runs complete. Biggest volume week ever for me
Row x1|1hr27|21,097m| half marathon good start to the week
Swim x1|0hr48|2,500m|token midweek recovery session
Yoga x1|0hr25|| need to bring some focus to S&C
Total|10hrs03||weight check 80.6kg

OOnegative

Now tell me to wind my head in and shut up, but your struggling to break 20 mins for 5k yet your running your easy runs at sub 8 min pace? Your training by heart rate something I know nothing about, but I think your doing some of your runs to fast for your current level of fitness. My two cents worth. Curious more than anything to the idea behind it.

shotgunmcos

OOnegative wrote: »

Now tell me to wind my head in and shut up, but your struggling to break 20 mins for 5k yet your running your easy runs at sub 8 min pace? Your training by heart rate something I know nothing about, but I think your doing some of your runs to fast for your current level of fitness. My two cents worth. Curious more than anything to the idea behind it.

Cheers for the observation. Honestly its exactly why I moved the log over here from the triathlon forum.
You are right. Easy runs are too quick.

I've largely ignored pace up to this week. I've applied a capped 155 heart rate to all aerobic runs inc long runs. In week 1 my LR was 10 miles at 145avg hr and the pace was 8:10. Today the LR was 16m with same avg hr 145 but pace was 7:37.

2 things. I started really looking at pace this week and noticed that though my heart rate (effort) is consistent, the pace of easy runs has quickened. My objective from this week is to bring the easy run pace back to easy. So its off heart rate, off pace and running on feel. Easy =Easy!

First thing: Endurance
Honestly I have maybe 2 years run focus. 2007-2008 when I started. Back when I was one of the gang (Krusty, Woddle, Amadeus etc..) going after sub 40. My first run event was a half in Connemara 2007 in 1:53 and later the DCM in 3:33. In 2008 went back to DCM to try for sub 3:30 again and did 3:28. Over the next 8 years I clocked a fair load of endurance events ranging 3-120hrs (long story). In amongst it ran a 3hr marathon at Connemara. Much of my base training the previous winter (my goal was my first Ironman) was capped heart rate at 155. That's why I picked that value to start back. Life got in the way since summer 2016 so I guess its just the hours and racing done before that gave me a foundation to start again. I was sure that once I got back consistently training the aerobic system would kick into gear.

Second thing: Speed and the struggling to break 20 for 5k bit
While I did a shed load of endurance events and sessions (30+ over 3hrs) I have not run hard since 2012. Under a coach and a run focus then I did 38xx for 10k and 1:23xx for a half. I then went off doing all sorts of mad stuff until summer 2016. 8 weeks ago I decided to pull the finger out and start training but stop messing this time. I start the marathon plan in January so I want to get all the pieces together first. A 20min 5k should be a jog by November.

Volume was the first focus as I needed to shift my butt and some weight
Now some building slowly the intensity to get some 5-10k speed/stamina back. Those sessions are harder but in a way easier too. You plan the reps and just do them. I actually have to focus as much on easy running to ensure I am recovering between the intensity sessions. I wrote it into my diary as this weeks objective. Start to dial in the difference between easy and hard effort! Its good folk like you (like Kurt last week) that will help me hold myself accountable. A coach obviously would really help in that regard. I've had Tri coaches but never a run specific coach. I was a member of a club back in 2011-2012 too and did XC with them which would be great fun again this winter. I just can't make the club set times though.

Thanks again for reading and stick a head in anytime!

OOnegative

I know a bit of your background from career move giving out about you!!! I just feel/think your easy is to fast, i’m training for Köln marathon at the minute and I wouldn’t run anything easy anything faster than 8.10 pace which is a tad to quick for myself that’s coming off a 1.26 Half/38.46 10km in the Spring.

career move

OOnegative wrote: »

I know a bit of your background from career move giving out about you!!! I just feel/think your easy is to fast, i’m training for Köln marathon at the minute and I wouldn’t run anything easy anything faster than 8.10 pace which is a tad to quick for myself that’s coming off a 1.26 Half/38.46 10km in the Spring.

As if I would ever give out about Mike :P

shotgunmcos

OOnegative wrote: »

I know a bit of your background from career move giving out about you!!! I just feel/think your easy is to fast, i’m training for Köln marathon at the minute and I wouldn’t run anything easy anything faster than 8.10 pace which is a tad to quick for myself that’s coming off a 1.26 Half/38.46 10km in the Spring.

Aha! Kate is one to talk! But to be fair probably knows me better than anyone else around here since we spent so much time together. You are probably right. I plan to pull it back this week and run at the lower end of easy. Do you plan to set up a log?

OOnegative

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Aha! Kate is one to talk! But to be fair probably knows me better than anyone else around here since we spent so much time together. You are probably right. I plan to pull it back this week and run at the lower end of easy. Do you plan to set up a log?

Have one “Can I give more? The answer is usually yes”. Not much to be learned there really but I like the fact of having a log here, keeps you honest and dedicated somewhat.

shotgunmcos

Ah I see. Didn't recognise "tang1". There are a few logs like that. What's the story with changing handles around here?! Cool I'll dive in for a read this week.

OOnegative

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Ah I see. Didn't recognise "tang1". There are a few logs like that. What's the story with changing handles around here?! Cool I'll dive in for a read this week.

People were bored of “tang1”!!!

RayCun

Were the 145 and 155 figures based on some percentage of heart rate max? When did you calculate that?

Keeks

OOnegative wrote: »

Now tell me to wind my head in and shut up, but your struggling to break 20 mins for 5k yet your running your easy runs at sub 8 min pace? Your training by heart rate something I know nothing about, but I think your doing some of your runs to fast for your current level of fitness. My two cents worth. Curious more than anything to the idea behind it.

Is it a case of Pace too fast or HR too high?

shotgunmcos

RayCun wrote: »

Were the 145 and 155 figures based on some percentage of heart rate max? When did you calculate that?

Based off % of LTHR. My LT at the time was about 171 I think and zones were
Recovery <85%LTHR
Steady Aerobic 85-89%LTHR
Tempo 90-94%LTHR
LT 95-99%LTHR
Speed 100%+LTHR

I think the HR cap back in 2012 (having checked) was 153 so that would be the top of the "Steady" Z2. As such I'm running easy runs too fast based on 1) rounded out cap to 155 and 2) wrong zone! Easy is Z1!

Thing here is that its 6 years since I checked my LTHR and given I'm older and less fit now its probably closer to 168. Also back then when I was mainly doing triathlon my run mileage was pretty low. Average 20-30 miles per week. I used easy bike or easy swims as my recovery.

Now without those and a run focus I need to 1)pull the steady cap back a few beats (to redefine the marathon zone) and 2) drop easy running back to Zone 1 altogether (<145hr) or 85%LTHR

shotgunmcos

Keeks wrote: »

Is it a case of Pace too fast or HR too high?

Hi Keeks. HR generally for "easy" and long runs was 145avg and usually max at 155 unless I pressed up a hill etc.. So there we are talking about effort. Essentially my pace is improving for the same effort. Pretty simple since I've sort of "started" again and progress is usually quicker at the start. It will plateau at some point, then progress will depend on a change

So as above, 145 should really be my cap for easy runs, not my average.

I've typically always trained by heart rate and only hit "paces" on defined reps. Generally I get to a point where I can practically guess my heart rate at any level of effort and that where I like to be. I still remember clearly running my best marathon on feel, which is why the end result surprised me.

Edit: The marathon plan is governed by pace first (and heart rate second). I'm not fit enough to try to hit those paces yet so using HR put a control on the rate of progress

Testosterscone

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Based off % of LTHR. My LT at the time was about 171 I think and zones were
Recovery <85%LTHR
Steady Aerobic 85-89%LTHR
Tempo 90-94%LTHR
LT 95-99%LTHR
Speed 100%+LTHR

I think the HR cap back in 2012 (having checked) was 153 so that would be the top of the "Steady" Z2. As such I'm running easy runs too fast based on 1) rounded out cap to 155 and 2) wrong zone! Easy is Z1!

Thing here is that its 6 years since I checked my LTHR and given I'm older and less fit now its probably closer to 168. Also back then when I was mainly doing triathlon my run mileage was pretty low. Average 20-30 miles per week. I used easy bike or easy swims as my recovery.

Now without those and a run focus I need to 1)pull the steady cap back a few beats (to redefine the marathon zone) and 2) drop easy running back to Zone 1 altogether (<145hr) or 85%LTHR

This is worth a read as it might be of interest (article on the older side)

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012/06/physiological-model-of-training-why-i.html?v=7c78ebb4c223

Your training has been solid so far and seems to be working and if you are happy to keep ploughing on that way you will probably continue to see benefits but don't be afraid to branch out from the "by the numbers" approach every once in a while even for your own sanity if nothing else.

RayCun

+1

I reckon you're fit enough, and experienced enough, to have a good feel for what you can do and to know if you start overreaching. If you start feeling tired all the time, or your race numbers aren't matching your training, then would be the time to take another look at your paces and heart rates, but it seems to be working out okay so far, especially for an early training block like this.