Terminating Part 4 Tenancy before it becomes a second Part 4

Colking

Hi, I've checked the RTB website for a sample termination and think this is in line with their template. I would appreciate though if anyone can spot a mistake I may have made ?

The tenancy commenced August 30 2013. I would need to issue at least 84 days notice, so that would be 6 June 2017.

This is the letter I'm thinking of issuing. My understanding is that while no reasons are listed for ending a Part 4 before it becomes a further part 4, you are advised to give a reason anyway.

To: xxxxx

Your tenancy of the dwelling at xxxxx will terminate on 30/08/2017.
You must vacate and give up possession of the dwelling on or before the termination date.
The reason for the termination of the tenancy is that I need to assess the long term future of the property and I want the property empty while doing so.
You have the whole of the 24 hours of the termination date to vacate and give up possession of the above dwelling.
Any issue as to the validity of this notice or the right of the landlord to serve it, must be referred to the Residential Tenancies Board under Part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2016 within 28 days from the date of receipt of it.
This notice is served on 06/06/2017.


Signed:

Please note - In order to ensure that there is no delay on returning the deposit, I would suggest carrying out inspections on (INSERT DATE) and (INSERT DATE) at (INSERT TIME). Please let me know if this time is convenient for you.


Thanks in advance for any help.

Graham

I'm probably old fashioned but when it comes to something like ending a tenancy correctly in line with the rapidly shifting legislation, I'd splash out a few euro to get qualified legal advice before throwing it out to a bunch of randoms on the internet.

That's just me though, what's the worse that could happen? You can try and gain possession in another 4/6 years if you get it wrong this time around.

Mr. Incognito

This was abolished in December 2016

You cannot now terminate at the end of a Part 4.

You can only terminate for one of the reasons set out in Section 34

Graham

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

This was abolished in December 2016

You cannot now terminate at the end of a Part 4.

You can only terminate for one of the reasons set out in Section 34

No disprespect Mr I, but I know there's differing opinions on this.

The opinion I'd take is the one I'd paid for from someone who has the necessary professional indemnity insurance behind them.

Mr. Incognito

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

This was abolished in December 2016

You cannot now terminate at the end of a Part 4.

You can only terminate for one of the reasons set out in Section 34

Incorrect, you can no longer end a further part 4 in the first 6 months of the further part 4 but you can give notice to prevent the further part 4 coming into existence.

Michael D Not Higgins

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

This was abolished in December 2016

You cannot now terminate at the end of a Part 4.

You can only terminate for one of the reasons set out in Section 34

You're thinking of the repeal of Section 42. However, Section 34 (b) allows for termination without the reason being one of the grounds in the table.

"irrespective of whether any of those grounds exist, if—

(i) a notice of termination giving the required period of notice is served by the landlord in respect of the tenancy, and

(ii) that period of notice expires on or after the end of the period of 4 years mentioned in section 28 (2)(a) in relation to the tenancy."

Michael D Not Higgins

See also: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

Preventing a further Part 4 tenancy
If a landlord wishes to stop a further Part 4 tenancy coming into existence, they may serve a notice during the original Part 4 tenancy, with the notice period expiring on or after the end of the tenancy. A notice served in this way should provide a reason for termination, but the reason does not need to be one of the above grounds.

Baby01032012

+1 on Michael Ds post. OP the wording of the letter you included in your opening post looks perfect.

Ensure that it is served on a date so as to ensure the relevant notice period ends on or after the end of the Part IV. I recently served same notice to my tenants and they are due to leave in a couple of weeks on the day the Part IV ends. Both sides happy. I double checked with RTB before I did and they confirmed in writing what I was doing was fine.

GGTrek

OP I do not like the reason you put in the sample notice you posted at all.

The reason should be exactly the same or very similar to the one stated here: https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/sample-notice---terminating-before-a-further-part-4-commences-16-01-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=2

I got legal advice on section 34 (b) notices from the Dunivya case solicitors (not cheap). In the notice it HAS to be clearly stated that you do not wish to provide a further part 4 tenancy and I cannot see this anywhere in your notice sample. If needed send me a PM and I shall send you the solicitor details, but the RTB sample notice is very similar.

Notice I provided has already been successfully tested at RTB adjudication but without appeal (he was a really bad tenant that initially believed wrong advice from Threshold staff).

Marcusm

Daleyza Dry Pope wrote: »

Incorrect, you can no longer end a further part 4 in the first 6 months of the further part 4 but you can give notice to prevent the further part 4 coming into existence.

Perfectly correct and the RTB even provides a sample notice of termination specifying this as the reason!

Colking

Thanks all for the very helpful advice, much appreciated.

It had been my plan to give an extra few days notice above and beyond the statutory 84 days but I will now issue notice dated so that it coincides with the exact end of the Part IV or the day after it.

Fair point about not explicitly stating that I do not wish to enter into a further Part IV tenancy.

Even though I am perfectly entitled (under current legislation) to end a Part IV, knowing the mad decisions, vagaries and peccadilloes of the RTB I'm better off using their wording exactly and not relying on my implicit rights to end a Part IV so long as I state "a reason".

To: (INSERT NAME)

Your tenancy of the dwelling at (Insert Address of Rented Dwelling) will terminate on XX/XX/XXXX.

You must vacate and give up possession of the dwelling on or before the termination date.

The reason for the termination of the tenancy is due to the fact that the landlord is entitled to terminate the tenancy before a Further Part 4 tenancy cycle commences and by providing the minimum notice period applicable pursuant to the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2016.

You have the whole of the 24 hours of the termination date to vacate and give up possession of the above dwelling.

Any issue as to the validity of this notice or the right of the landlord to serve it, must be referred to the Residential Tenancies Board under Part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2016 within28 days from the date of receipt of it.


This notice is served on XX/XX/XXXX.

Signed:
________________________
A. N. Other
Landlord


Please note - In order to ensure that there is no delay on returning the deposit, I would suggest carrying out inspections on (INSERT DATE) and (INSERT DATE) at (INSERT TIME). Please let me know if this time is convenient for you.

Colking

Graham wrote: »

I'm probably old fashioned but when it comes to something like ending a tenancy correctly in line with the rapidly shifting legislation, I'd splash out a few euro to get qualified legal advice before throwing it out to a bunch of randoms on the internet.

That's just me though, what's the worse that could happen? You can try and gain possession in another 4/6 years if you get it wrong this time around.

Graham you're entitled to your opinion.

As a long time lurker I'm perfectly aware that Boards posts do not constitute or purport to constitute legal advice (the mods are very thorough and explicit about explaining this)

However the Accommodation & Property section is in no way a bunch of randoms on the internet. This section is full of genuinely helpful and extremely experienced people.

Over the last number of years I have had to become very knowledgeable and well read on the constantly changing legislation.

There are 15 -20 posters that I always pay close attention to on this board and thankfully some of them were good enough to assist me with my inquiry and give generously of their advice and experience.

GGTrek

Colking wrote: »

Thanks all for the very helpful advice, much appreciated.

It had been my plan to give an extra few days notice above and beyond the statutory 84 days but I will now issue notice dated so that it coincides with the exact end of the Part IV or the day after it.

Fair point about not explicitly stating that I do not wish to enter into a further Part IV tenancy.
[/I]

Another possible big issue is putting as the termination date the last day of part IV, my solicitor said that doing this was just taking big risks for almost no upside. Put the termination date as one day or even better two days after part 4 termination date, so that you stay on the safest side possible: 1 or 2 days more will not cause you any sizeable loss and provide you a big safety net should your notice be challenged.

Colking

GGTrek wrote: »

Another possible big issue is putting as the termination date the last day of part IV, my solicitor said that doing this was just taking big risks for almost no upside. Put the termination date as one day or even better two days after part 4 termination date, so that you stay on the safest side possible: 1 or 2 days more will not cause you any sizeable loss and provide you a big safety net should your notice be challenged.

Thanks, I'll make it 2 days to stay completely on the safe side of any potential "interpretation" by the RTB.

GGTrek

Just noticed now another possible risk: use 112 days ( 113 or more is better) notice period, not 84! Pro tenant RTB adjudicator (believe me there are some who publish articles in openly socialist newspapers) might say that since termination date falls after or on 4 years, the right notice is 112 days, this was other advice I got from solicitor. Remember that section 34 (b) notices have only got the Dunivya case as guidance: there is very little case law and you have to be very careful on every point.

As you can see there are a lot of issues that can be picked up in a termination notice and the suggestion of getting legal advice is a good one.

Best of luck

mrslancaster

Daleyza Dry Pope wrote: »

Incorrect, you can no longer end a further part 4 in the first 6 months of the further part 4 but you can give notice to prevent the further part 4 coming into existence.

can anyone answer this for me please?

from what I've read here, a further part 4 tenancy can be prevented by giving a valid notice. does that also apply to a second further part 4 tenancy?

so for example a tenancy started in 01 jan 2010 & a further part 4 started on 01 jan 2014. that will be ending on 31 DEC 2017 so another 'further part 4' tenancy will roll over on 01 Jan 2018.

how does that work - do the same rules apply in that situation?

GGTrek

mrslancaster wrote: »

Daleyza Dry Pope wrote: »

Incorrect, you can no longer end a further part 4 in the first 6 months of the further part 4 but you can give notice to prevent the further part 4 coming into existence.

can anyone answer this for me please?

from what I've read here, a further part 4 tenancy can be prevented by giving a valid notice. does that also apply to a second further part 4 tenancy?

so for example a tenancy started in 01 jan 2010 & a further part 4 started on 01 jan 2014. that will be ending on 31 DEC 2017 so another 'further part 4' tenancy will roll over on 01 Jan 2018.

how does that work - do the same rules apply in that situation?

Same rule Section 34(b), same termination notice, bigger notice period of 224 days (add a few more)

mrslancaster

GGTrek wrote: »

Same rule Section 34(b), same termination notice, bigger notice period of 224 days (add a few more)

thanks ggtrek for that info, helps to understand the regulations a bit better as couldn't find the answer on rtb website.

jamesthepeach

Colking wrote: »

Thanks, I'll make it 2 days to stay completely on the safe side of any potential "interpretation" by the RTB.

I made mine over a month, 60 days to be exact. You can never be too careful with the RTB.