HAP for landlords

L1985

Hi All

i was hoping for some advice here. We have had tenants the past three years and have had no problem with them. v helpful, rents always paid on time and the tenant looks after small fixes himself which suits both of us.
Now they came to me last week and advised they were eligible for the HAP Scheme and wanted to go on it. now rent wise it would actually be an increase (we haven't increased the tenants rent since they moved in as they are good tenants but they are definitely paying under the market rate.) by €50. I wouldnt mind helping the tenants out but there are a couple of drawbacks that I can see.
firstly as its paid by DD (Currently we collect it each month) we wont see the property and whats happening with it.....we got badly burned with this before. we can just implement regular inspections of course.
secondly does the council get involved and is there a certain level of compliance we have to abide by? the house is old and could do with some fixing up but anything the tenant has needed we have done but there is deff some issues with it. nothing major but i know there are some issues there.
thirdly is there other disadvantages that we arent aware of that we should consider? anything i find on here is all from the tenants side not from the landlords so would like to hear from some landlords that are in this situation.

thanks in advance

davo10

You can't discriminate against HAP tenants so if they are eligible then unless they are coming to the end of their Part 4 cycle or you want to evict on any of the recognised legal grounds, you may have to accept it.

Yes there are disadvantages, if for some reason in the future they lose their HAP entitlement, they may not be in a position to pay rent and the nightmare that is the process of eviction may begin. The Council do require a certain standard which may not necessarily be required for private tenancies, they will inspect your property and you will be required to carry out any necessary upgrades.

If they are good tenants, they won't become bad ones just because they are receiving HAP assistance. I'm not sure where you stand if you were to tell the Council that you can not afford the upgrades that are necessary for compliance, whether the Council would refuse to pay HAP and the tenants would have no option but to move to avail of HAP.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

surrender monkey

One of the draw backs of the HAP scheme is that if the tenant doesn't pay their rent to the Council then the Council stop paying you.

Another is the property will be inspected by the local authority and if it doesn't comply with the standards they will require upgrades to be done to the property. For example if the boiler is old it will need to be replaced. Mains smoke alarms and heat detectors will have to be installed as well as carbon monoxide alarms in any room that an has an appliance that could potentially produce carbon monoxide.attic Insulation will need to be up to spec and you may be required to instal ventilation in each room. A schedule of works will be prepared and if you do not comply the local authority can refuse to pay. You will also have to provide tax compliance certificates etc. It's a win win for the tenant and a nightmare for the land lord...it's also usually paid in arrears also

badge1123

I'm just looking if anyone can shed some light on the hap scheme for landlords. Pros and cons. I've tried to read the info online but my head just gets in a mess. I am a landlord and my current tenant is moving to the hap scheme. She's a really good tenant and I'm ok with it so far till I find out if it's not goin to end up screwing me over in the end.

Boards.ie: Mark

Moving to Accommodation & Property where someone might be able to help you out.

Finbarr Murphy

I am no expert but HAP tends to pay rent at the end of the month not in advance at the start of the month. Also if your building falls short on building regulations you may need to upgrade the property so that it complies with current building regulations. Someone I know recently forked out 10K to bring their property up to spec after a HAP inspection.

Also if I understand this correctly the tenant pays a minimal sum to the council who then pays you your rent. If the tenant stops paying the council the council will stop paying you. So who do yo chase up for the rent then, the tenant or the council?

Finally getting set up with HAP can be a headache. The person I know (above) went a month without receiving rent and then an extra month without rent before the council paid 2 months rent at the end of the second month.

That's all I've heard about it. I'll leave it to others to add more detail.

wordofwarning

I know someone who 5/6 months without getting rent under the HAP scheme. The LA will not in anyway concerned about the fact, the landlord was 5/6 months without rent. In fact they were only willing to look at the case in 3/4 months time. LAs are a very slow with processing HAP

AFAIK under HAP, the LA will come out and inspect it. You may fail for basic stuff like that smoke alarm should have a 10 year battery and not a disposable one.

It does not seem as if you have a choice but to accept this. The tenant sounds like they have part IV. IMO you just need to put serious pressure on getting their application processed ASAP. Don't be surprised if you don't get it for months

The_Conductor

Also- the local authority will expect to pay a discount to the open market rent for the property (which will be the rate last paid by the tenant on the open market- and not what next door- or a few doors up might be paying).

So- rent is discounted- not open market rates
Paid in arrears- not advance
Deposit may be non-existant
Property is subject to pass an inspection with bizarre reasons to fail
Landlord is responsible for managing the tenancy- not the local authority

Its stacked in favour of the local authority- and their haphazard/lax-a-daisical approach to how they administer the scheme.

Once you get it setup- it tends to be plain sailing- however, it can take up to a year before its properly setup.

After setup- the rent can be subject to revision by the local authority without any input from the landlord- e.g. if the limits for a given area are changed- this can be retrospectively imposed on landlords- which really isn't fair.

You *need* to have someone go through the contract from the local authority in detail- they're not all the same (despite the model contract having been supplied nationally by the Department- some local authorities seem to think they can modify it ad nauseum- so you have a right hodge-potch of rules out there).

Caveat emptor.

Gumbo

I put my tennant on HAP.
Got full market rate and got deposit and 2 months rent in advance.

Payment is the last Wednesday of every month.
I got deposit and May and June's payment up front so my next payment will be last Wednesday in July.

Processed quick enough through dublin council.

karenalot

kceire wrote: »

I put my tennant on HAP.
Got full market rate and got deposit and 2 months rent in advance.

Payment is the last Wednesday of every month.
I got deposit and May and June's payment up front so my next payment will be last Wednesday in July.

Processed quick enough through dublin council.

Same here. I got HAP tenants in last year though Kildare Co Co and first months rent at full market rate was in my bank account by the time they moved in a month later. I also had another tenant move to it from the old Rent Allowance system and it was pretty seamless. My advice would be to make sure your tenant is on top of her paperwork and to continue paying her rent as normal till the funds come through. You can always refund her.

As above Dublin City Council are offering 2 months rent and deposit in advance. - https://twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/859790792126320640

The_Conductor

Obviously the local authorities in Dublin, Kildare and Meath- have copped they have to make the scheme attractive for landlords- and are doing their bit to ensure they do.

Askthe EA

I had a client who accepted Hap from an existing tenant. Everything went fine till the inspectors arrived. The house was perfect in my opinion but the bill to bring it up to their standards came in at 1800. Stupid stuff.

Existing fire alarms not 10 year ones. No vent in sitting room. No extractors in ensuite. The extractor in the bathroom was wired to the lights. Had to be separated which required rewiring. All this despite the fact that this was how the house was built.

gizmo81

I know that landlords cannot discriminate against HAP tenants but just wondering when it comes to existing tenants, does the landlord have to accept?

Specifically, If as you outline the house had to meet certain standards above the minimum standards for Private rented accommodation does the landlord have to carry out the work?

Are there grants to help landlords meet HAP requirements?

As you have experience of this I thought I'd ask, if you don't mind. Thanks.

Askthe EA wrote: »

I had a client who accepted Hap from an existing tenant. Everything went fine till the inspectors arrived. The house was perfect in my opinion but the bill to bring it up to their standards came in at 1800. Stupid stuff.

Existing fire alarms not 10 year ones. No vent in sitting room. No extractors in ensuite. The extractor in the bathroom was wired to the lights. Had to be separated which required rewiring. All this despite the fact that this was how the house was built.

Askthe EA

gizmo81 wrote: »

I know that landlords cannot discriminate against HAP tenants but just wondering when it comes to existing tenants, does the landlord have to accept?

Specifically, If as you outline the house had to meet certain standards above the minimum standards for Private rented accommodation does the landlord have to carry out the work?

Are there grants to help landlords meet HAP requirements?

As you have experience of this I thought I'd ask, if you don't mind. Thanks.

I honestly don't know. I'd suspect a LL wouldn't be allowed refuse to accept HAP though and with a tenant already in place he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The problem is that the minimum standards now often exceed the standards a house was built to originally.

If a property doesn't meet basic standards, as far as I am aware, it shouldn't be rented. If the LL can't afford to put it right, well his choices are to sell or leave it empty. Tenant is out of a home.

I've never heard of any grants, no.

gizmo81

Thanks very much for getting back to me.

I don't understand why the difference in minimum standards for HAP and non-HAP tenants.

If they want landlords to accept HAP there should be support for these extra requirements in my opinion.

Askthe EA wrote: »

I honestly don't know. I'd suspect a LL wouldn't be allowed refuse to accept HAP though and with a tenant already in place he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The problem is that the minimum standards now often exceed the standards a house was built to originally.

If a property doesn't meet basic standards, as far as I am aware, it shouldn't be rented. If the LL can't afford to put it right, well his choices are to sell or leave it empty. Tenant is out of a home.

I've never heard of any grants, no.

Gumbo

Askthe EA wrote: »

I had a client who accepted Hap from an existing tenant. Everything went fine till the inspectors arrived. The house was perfect in my opinion but the bill to bring it up to their standards came in at 1800. Stupid stuff.

Existing fire alarms not 10 year ones. No vent in sitting room. No extractors in ensuite. The extractor in the bathroom was wired to the lights. Had to be separated which required rewiring. All this despite the fact that this was how the house was built.

House must have been built many many years ago as those standards have been on place since 1992 (Building Regulations).
My 11 year old house was built like this.

Askthe EA

kceire wrote: »

House must have been built many many years ago as those standards have been on place since 1992 (Building Regulations).
My 11 year old house was built like this.

At least 15 years old but in super condition and we'll maintained.

Askthe EA

gizmo81 wrote: »

Thanks very much for getting back to me.

I don't understand why the difference in minimum standards for HAP and non-HAP tenants.

If they want landlords to accept HAP there should be support for these extra requirements in my opinion.

There is no difference except the council rarely inspect non Hap properties unless a complaint is made.

lucernarian

Askthe EA wrote: »

There is no difference except the council rarely inspect non Hap properties unless a complaint is made.

Exactly.

And when I was a tenant in a normal private letting, Dublin City Council inspected our apartment. They insisted on action to be taken for a vent in one bedroom that didn't have it, fire blanket and extinguisher to be provided in the kitchen, and something to modify the electrical supply for a fan heater in the bathroom.

Not exactly onerous or "bizarre".

The_Conductor

gizmo81 wrote: »

Thanks very much for getting back to me.

I don't understand why the difference in minimum standards for HAP and non-HAP tenants.

If they want landlords to accept HAP there should be support for these extra requirements in my opinion.

There are some grants available for landlords under the home improvement scheme- which might cover some costs- in a similar manner to for an owner-occupier (typically- its a VAT refund from registered contractors)- however, no- there are no grants available to a landlord to bring a property up to HAP standards.

If a property needs plumbing/rewiring/new central systems etc- as prescribed by a HAP inspector- it would be quite easy to spend 20k on it- none of which is refundable- or indeed, tax deductible.........

This is yet another reason many landlords would rather avoid HAP- the scheme requirements are more extensive and specify property to a higher standard, than 98% of Irish people live in.

Irish property has to comply with the building codes in place when the property was built- i.e. a property built last year- can be a lot smaller and have different bedroom rules- to one built in 1994- but it can be specified to a far higher standard (better insulation, better fire detection/prevention, isolation of various electrical subsystems etc etc).

I.e. a landlord who decides to take a HAP tenant is forced to bring a property up to current building codes- but has no grants (other than the home improvement scheme- or the SEAI scheme for heating systems) to fall back on. And- the real boot to the head- is as this is an 'improvement' its not tax deductible either- to be tax deductible, under Revenue rules- a landlord can only replace like with like- so for example- if a landlord upgraded windows in an older property from single to double glazing- it doesn't qualify...........

Most tenants imagine there are all manner of schemes out there for landlords to do these things- or that they are a tax deductible cost- unfortunately- if you look into it- you'll find that this quite simply is not the case.

The_Conductor

lucernarian wrote: »

Exactly.

And when I was a tenant in a normal private letting, Dublin City Council inspected our apartment. They insisted on action to be taken for a vent in one bedroom that didn't have it, fire blanket and extinguisher to be provided in the kitchen, and something to modify the electrical supply for a fan heater in the bathroom.

Not exactly onerous or "bizarre".

Ventilation requirements have evolved though- in the 1990s- it was the norm, and perfectly acceptable, to have ventillation built into windows and window frames- it was not necessary for separate ventillation.

Getting Holemasters out to retrofit current build specs into a 1990s apartment- will set you back a minimum of 2k (depending on the number of rooms- possibly up to 8-9k)- and thats for ventilation alone. If there is an extractor fan in a bathroom- on the same circuit as the light in the bathroom (perfectly allowable in the 1990s)- that'll need to be removed onto its own subsystem- etc etc etc.

Its very easy to spend 20k to bring a dwelling up to current building specs- and there is absolutely no reason for a building to comply with current buildnig specs- it just had to meet the specs in place when it was actually built.

lucernarian

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ventilation requirements have evolved though- in the 1990s- it was the norm, and perfectly acceptable, to have ventillation built into windows and window frames- it was not necessary for separate ventillation.

Getting Holemasters out to retrofit current build specs into a 1990s apartment- will set you back a minimum of 2k (depending on the number of rooms- possibly up to 8-9k)- and thats for ventilation alone. If there is an extractor fan in a bathroom- on the same circuit as the light in the bathroom (perfectly allowable in the 1990s)- that'll need to be removed onto its own subsystem- etc etc etc.

Its very easy to spend 20k to bring a dwelling up to current building specs- and there is absolutely no reason for a building to comply with current buildnig specs- it just had to meet the specs in place when it was actually built.

It was a Georgian building, renovated in the 2000s. I can say the cost for putting in a vent (there was none, not in the window frames etc), was far less than 2k, that was a good couple of years ago now. Maybe prices have indeed shot up by 6x... Or maybe there's an element of scaremongering going on about this HAP scheme? A LA could easily inspect any private tenancy also and the standards for either are the same.

The_Conductor

lucernarian wrote: »

It was a Georgian building, renovated in the 2000s. I can say the cost for putting in a vent (there was none, not in the window frames etc), was far less than 2k, that was a good couple of years ago now. Maybe prices have indeed shot up by 6x... Or maybe there's an element of scaremongering going on about this HAP scheme? A LA could easily inspect any private tenancy also and the standards for either are the same.

Depends on how many holes are being drilled- and whether its being done professionally or by Bob the builder up the street.........

I've gotten a few jobs done by Holemasters- at the insistence of an apartment management company (ventilation for a kitchen, living room, 3 bedrooms and a bathroom- 7 x 6" holes, ducting and cowling- its not cheap (though however they do it- there is no dust etc involved).

Askthe EA

lucernarian wrote: »

Exactly.

And when I was a tenant in a normal private letting, Dublin City Council inspected our apartment. They insisted on action to be taken for a vent in one bedroom that didn't have it, fire blanket and extinguisher to be provided in the kitchen, and something to modify the electrical supply for a fan heater in the bathroom.

Not exactly onerous or "bizarre".

Youre missing the point. The point is, the tenant was happy with the property, the landlord maintained it well. He accepted hap and it cost him €1800.

It is not scare mongering, it is a valid reply to a question asked in relation to accepting HAP.

circular flexing

I have a tenant under HAP. Getting about 250 euro below market rate. It's better than the RA where the top-up would come from the tenant, getting one payment is much easier. I could see it getting quite messy if the tenant stopped paying rent to the LA, as it's quite clear in the contract that the LA will not take any action in this case.

The_Conductor

circular flexing wrote: »

I have a tenant under HAP. Getting about 250 euro below market rate. It's better than the RA where the top-up would come from the tenant, getting one payment is much easier. I could see it getting quite messy if the tenant stopped paying rent to the LA, as it's quite clear in the contract that the LA will not take any action in this case.

Thats a bit nutty- so the tenant stops paying rent to the LA.
The LA in turn- stop paying rent to you.
No-one will talk to you, as they don't have to- yet, you're left with all the risk- and in this instance, an actionable disincentive- as the rent is 250 a month below market rates?

Does not compute.

lucernarian

The_Conductor wrote: »

Depends on how many holes are being drilled- and whether its being done professionally or by Bob the builder up the street.........

I've gotten a few jobs done by Holemasters- at the insistence of an apartment management company (ventilation for a kitchen, living room, 3 bedrooms and a bathroom- 7 x 6" holes, ducting and cowling- its not cheap (though however they do it- there is no dust etc involved).

You said it was a minimum 2k cost, presumably for one room. One hole was drilled with the requisite sealing and ventilation covers. This was to the satisfaction of the city council. You mention an exorbitant cost, and then put a caveat on the number of holes drilled. Well, a single bore was made through a thick dry-lined Georgian exterior wall and it cost far less than 2000 euro. So where exactly does this huge discrepancy come from? Forgive my scepticism but it sounds like scaremongering to me.

circular flexing

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats a bit nutty- so the tenant stops paying rent to the LA.
The LA in turn- stop paying rent to you.
No-one will talk to you, as they don't have to- yet, you're left with all the risk- and in this instance, an actionable disincentive- as the rent is 250 a month below market rates?

Does not compute.

Yep it's a bit nuts. I could have maybe got more for the rent but still would not have been near market. It does push a lot of risk onto the landlord.

The only upside is that the tenants should be relatively stable. My house has not been empty in over 3 years.

Askthe EA

lucernarian wrote: »

You said it was a minimum 2k cost, presumably for one room. One hole was drilled with the requisite sealing and ventilation covers. This was to the satisfaction of the city council. You mention an exorbitant cost, and then put a caveat on the number of holes drilled. Well, a single bore was made through a thick dry-lined Georgian exterior wall and it cost far less than 2000 euro. So where exactly does this huge discrepancy come from? Forgive my scepticism but it sounds like scaremongering to me.

Again though, it's not scare mongering. If the property is older and a landlord accepts HAP it is inevitable that they will have to spend money to retrofit the house to modern standards. It is less likely that he will have to do anything if he has a private tenant.

The_Conductor

lucernarian wrote: »

You said it was a minimum 2k cost, presumably for one room. One hole was drilled with the requisite sealing and ventilation covers. This was to the satisfaction of the city council. You mention an exorbitant cost, and then put a caveat on the number of holes drilled. Well, a single bore was made through a thick dry-lined Georgian exterior wall and it cost far less than 2000 euro. So where exactly does this huge discrepancy come from? Forgive my scepticism but it sounds like scaremongering to me.

Depends entirely on the work that the HAP inspector insists on- however, the following would be far from unusual:

1. Replacement of all fire alarms and CO2 detectors- with an interlinked system on 10 year batteries
2. Multiple holes drilled in walls for ventillation purposes
3. Electrical subsystems to be rewired (such as extractor fans in bathrooms- put on their own power supplys and isolated from the lighting for the bathroom).
4. Separate CO2 and dry powder fire extinguishers (sometimes they even specify a wet extinguisher) and proof that these are recharged annually.
5. Commercial fireblanket for the kitchen
6. Some replumbing- to reflect queries over potable water and/or water heating subsystems
7. Heating controls (mind you there is an SEAI grant available to assist with this one)
8. Replacement of some white goods that are working and have not been flatlined to zero as per Revenue guidelines
9. Replacement of lightbulbs with LED/LCD/CFL options
10. New banister for stairs to backdoor as current banister for internal use only (note- the stairs is internal- not entirely sure where this is coming from).
11. Replacement of carpets throughout as the council have promised the tenant appropriate accommodation cognisant of their dust allergies.

(these are from PMs sent to me overnight by 2 posters in the forum).

It appears to be a shopping list of requirements- to have the properties done up- where any other tenant would have been perfectly happy taking the property as is. I have no idea how much the above list would cost- and it relates to two separate properties- both in South Dublin Co. Co. (Lucan and Clondalkin).

You seem to have some issue accepting that this is happening- have a chat with a HAP inspector- or the DSP liaison officer for the area- they can tell you exactly what they're specifying.

Onthefence

Does anyone know if the HAP requirements are stricter than the RAS requirements?