HAP for landlords

peaches08

The_Conductor wrote: »

If your property fails the HAP inspection- it doesn't qualify for HAP- however, then you have the trouble of trying to remove the tenant- who may decide this is an opportune time not to pay rent at all.

HAP is a mess- for numerous reasons- but mostly because it puts all the risk on the landlord- for very little benefit.

E.g.

1. Its paid in arrears
2. You may or may not get a deposit
3. The tenant pays their portion of the rent directly to the council/local authority
3(b). If the tenant doesn't pay their portion- the landlord gets nothing whatsoever- the local authority stop payments altogether
4. The HAP inspection normally involves bringing a property up to current specs- if you were letting it privately it only has to meet the specs relevant to a building of its age. E.g. ventillation built into window frames may not be acceptable- you need separate ventillation for any habitable room, a fan on the same circuit as lighting for the bathroom- is verbotten, it has to be on a separate circuit. The Kiddie CO detectors- and/or fire alarms- that you get in B&Q/Woodies etc- are not acceptable- you need the commercial ones that have the 10 year batteries etc etc etc

If you have doubts about the tenant- before you ever get going on the scheme- forget it. If you get a good tenant on the scheme- they could be brilliant. In the OP's case- where the tenant is acting the maggot making deductions from the rent before they are ever on the scheme- just picture what'll happen if they do this with their portion of the rent for the local authority- the landlord will get nothing whatsoever- its not that they get the local authority portion of the rent- they get nothing whatsoever..........

Hi
thanks for both your replies, I will call the council tomorrow and tell them I don't meet the criteria ( tax cert, house standard etc) and there is no law stating you have to accept or forcing you to accept HAP

I think as a LL you'd be nuts to accept HAP, I'll just have to tell the tenant I don't meet the conditions that the LA are requiring from me as a landlord or the house, ( In case I get accused of discrimination )

She's paying the rent now, but really I can't see it lasting, If she misses it I'll just follow the process and give her notice etc within the rules. ,

If the government force LL to accept HAP there will be a lot of houses for sale.
As my insurance broker said premiums are going up due to HAP tenants.

If I get a response from the LA I'll let ye know it might help someone else !
thanks

gizmo81

peaches08 wrote: »

Hi
thanks for both your replies, I will call the council tomorrow and tell them I don't meet the criteria ( tax cert, house standard etc) and there is no law stating you have to accept or forcing you to accept HAP

I don't know about tax cert but the standards are the minimum standards for rented accommodation so thread carefully.

When you are a HAP tenant. The local authority will inspect your accommodation within 8 months of the first HAP payment to your landlord, to ensure that it meets the minimum standards for rented housing.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html

peaches08

the tenant posted me up all the documents,
you have to have tax clearance, ( or provide it within 5 months I think ) meet the min standards ( house was built 12 years ago regular 3 bed in an estate and it's a nice house.) and be registered with the tenancy board. I don't have tax cert, also your insurance goes up with HAP and also the min standards can cost if the house is not up to their standards
I've been reading some nightmare stories though I'm sure they are pretty old house regarding inspections.

At the end of the day I do not want the hassle of dealing with HAP, it's not suitable for me at the present and unless I'm forced to take it I really don't want to .

I'll call tomorrow and see
thanks

gizmo81

peaches08 wrote: »

the tenant posted me up all the documents,
you have to have tax clearance, ( or provide it within 5 months I think ) meet the min standards ( house was built 12 years ago regular 3 bed in an estate and it's a nice house.) and be registered with the tenancy board. I don't have tax cert, also your insurance goes up with HAP and also the min standards can cost if the house is not up to their standards
I've been reading some nightmare stories though I'm sure they are pretty old house regarding inspections.

thanks

If your property is not currently meeting minimum standards I wouldn't be saying that out loud let alone as a reason to reject HAP.

The_Conductor

gizmo81 wrote: »

If your property is not currently meeting minimum standards I wouldn't be saying that out loud let alone as a reason to reject HAP.

The 10 year battery CO detectors, retrofitting ventillation into bedrooms which have ventillation in the window frames that was compliant when the units were built etc- are all fine under current regs for renting- but not for HAP.

It is not the case that HAP = Minimum renting standards- they can be quite onerous if a unit was built in the late 80s/early 90s- before the building regs changed- but perfectly acceptable for rental purposes.

Edit: Landlords should also be cognisant of the new requirements which came in on the 1st July- applicable to all new tenancies, HAP or otherwise.

Grolschevik

Also, obtaining a tax clearance cert is as simple as contacting the Revenue by phone or through ROS.

Wouldn't really cut it as an excuse.

gizmo81

The_Conductor wrote: »

The 10 year battery CO detectors, retrofitting ventillation into bedrooms which have ventillation in the window frames that was compliant when the units were built etc- are all fine under current regs for renting- but not for HAP.

It is not the case that HAP = Minimum renting standards- they can be quite onerous if a unit was built in the late 80s/early 90s- before the building regs changed- but perfectly acceptable for rental purposes.

Edit: Landlords should also be cognisant of the new requirements which came in on the 1st July- applicable to all new tenancies, HAP or otherwise.

I've heard this on boards a bit but haven't come across it in real life.

A 10 year battery is €25? No?

The_Conductor

gizmo81 wrote: »

I've heard this on boards a bit but haven't come across it in real life.

A 10 year battery is €25? No?

Thats the replacement battery- you'll also need new detectors (standard detectors use a different voltage)- and if you don't have a central system (where the units are all wired into one another) you'll have to invest in one too..........

In addition- the CO detectors- have a Best Before date- which is on the HAP check list (and indeed, should be on all checklists!)

circular flexing

Grolschevik wrote: »

Also, obtaining a tax clearance cert is as simple as contacting the Revenue by phone or through ROS.

Wouldn't really cut it as an excuse.

Yep, you can apply online and turnaround time is in the order of days.

the_syco

Grolschevik wrote: »

Also, obtaining a tax clearance cert is as simple as contacting the Revenue by phone or through ROS.

Wouldn't really cut it as an excuse.

second I have no tax clear cert ( going through a divorce, it's a big mess)

I'm guessing that Peaches08 would have to supply both theirs and their other halves tax for the year to get this? But as they're going through a divorce, I can see the other half not playing ball in that regard, and thus no tax cert.

Peaches08; wouldn't mention the divorce to the tenant, in case the tenant tries to screw you over by somehow using the knowledge.

circular flexing

the_syco wrote: »

I'm guessing that Peaches08 would have to supply both theirs and their other halves tax for the year to get this? But as they're going through a divorce, I can see the other half not playing ball in that regard, and thus no tax cert.

HAP only requires one landlord to be named (even if the property is jointly owned) so only the tax cert of the named landlord needs to be provided. However, I'm not sure how it works if you are jointly assessed and one party is not compliant.

peaches08

It's not as simple as that maybe if you are a PAYE you can do that, call the revenue and get your cert. Tax affairs can be complicated if you have a company and also with a divorce mess which is taking years to sort out.

End of the day I'm not accepting HAP, it's all on the landlord and nothing on the local council.
Your payments stop if your tenant stops paying the council. They pay in arrears. Your insurance goes up. ( double I have been quoted for my area, seemly some insurers think HAP tenants or know HAP tenants wreck houses, I do not agree with this, it's another way the insurance companies screw you )

Any anti social behaviour it's all down to the LL to resolve.
The rental market is good at the moment, all tenants got the benefit of low rents for nearly 8 years through the recession and now LA are trying to get landlords to pick up their mess due to the lack of social housing.

You are not obliged to accept HAP but you can't discriminate against the person ( which I'm not if the rent is paid they can stay, I've no issue with that at all )

Grolschevik

It really may be as simple as that. A tax clearance cert simply Indicates that you have submitted tax returns and are deemed tax compliant -- it doesn't require an audit.

However, if your other half is not cooperating and equally involved in submitting returns, then it's possible that not being able to get a tax clearance cert issued may be the least of your worries.

peaches08

called the council at least 10 times today to get clarity, no answer and a mailbox full message, that's my decision made, if the LA can't be bothered answering the phone what hope have you if anything goes wrong... typical government.

L1985

Hi guys -op here. We told the tenants we couldn't go on HAP as it would require vents to be put into each room and we really couldn't afford it simple as. The tenant said he would get some quotes on to us re the cost and come back but didn't. We havnt heard anything about it since. We would be sad to lose them but we havnt got 5k plus to pump into the house. HAP were v rigid and unsympathetic when I spoke with them-their attitude (similar to others) was that its minimum standard.not for a house built in the 70s!! There was no understanding of them if what the cost involved. So we will see what happens-tenants are currently paying 30% below market rate so....

circular flexing

I've been renting through HAP since October last year (and through RA for 18 months before that) and the house has yet to be inspected.

circular flexing

peaches08 wrote: »

Your insurance goes up. ( double I have been quoted for my area, seemly some insurers think HAP tenants or know HAP tenants wreck houses, I do not agree with this, it's another way the insurance companies screw you )

I don't believe this for a second. I'm insured with Aviva and they didn't ask what kind of tenants I had, just that it was rented out. The insurance is more expensive than owner-occupied but I assume it's the same for all policies.

the_syco

circular flexing wrote: »

I don't believe this for a second. I'm insured with Aviva and they didn't ask what kind of tenants I had, just that it was rented out. The insurance is more expensive than owner-occupied but I assume it's the same for all policies.

Most people who I've read about the insurance companies not accepting HAP tenants, it was the broker who told them. Thus I'm assuming it's in the small print.

I assume it's similar to people only finding out that their modified car isn't covered after they crash. Have you ever asked Aviva if your house is covered when occupied by someone on any Social Welfare program?

goodvibes

Hello There

Just looking for some info on Rent supplement & Hap I'm looking to rent an apartment or small house in Dublin or Wicklow ....which do Landlords prefer The Hap or Rent supplement ? going by the posts here it seems not Hap ? any info on renting with either would be appreciated....


Thanks in advance....

The_Conductor

goodvibes wrote: »

Hello There

Just looking for some info on Rent supplement & Hap I'm looking to rent an apartment or small house in Dublin or Wicklow ....which do Landlords prefer The Hap or Rent supplement ? going by the posts here it seems not Hap ? any info on renting with either would be appreciated....


Thanks in advance....

Goodvibes- have you been renting privately in the local authority areas for 6 months out of the last 12? This will determine whether you qualify for rent supplement, or not.

More details here: http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/rent_faq.aspx

HAP is operated on a different basis- essentially, its an effort to get those who have been on long term housing assistance onto a single coordinated scheme (including those on long term rent supplement). I.e. if you're on rent supplement for a period exceeding 12 months- when you are next reviewed, you will most probably be migrated to the HAP programme.

HAP has a lot of benefits for tenants- however, its not really attractive for landlords (see the rest of this thread)- aside from any other reason- rent is paid monthly in arrears- whereas landlords are normally paid in advance, there may or may not be any deposit (2-3 months deposit is rapidly becoming the norm)- and the tenant has to pay their contribution towards the rent weekly to the local authority- however, if the tenant doesn't keep up their payments- the landlord gets nothing. Then there is the whole thing about HAP inspections- and bringing older properties up to current standards- which can be nightmare for landlords. The argument is they are minimum rental standards- yes, they are- however, they're minimum rental standards for current generation properties- not for older properties........ I.e. unless its a fairly recent property- the landlord may be banging their (own) head off the wall if someone tries to migrate to a HAP scheme.

Details on HAP here: http://hap.ie/

The bigger issue for you- is you're looking to rent in the highest demand part of the country- and supply is at an all time low. You're at a disadvantage from the get-go- while a landlord cannot discriminate against a HAP or Rent Supplement prospective tenant- the simple fact of the matter is- unless you're looking at rural Wicklow- the landlord will have a queue of prospective renters seeking any property that comes up. It is illegal for a landlord to discriminate against you because you're looking to avail of HAP or Rent Supplement. It is not illegal for a landlord to seek 4-6 months rent as a deposit- and use that as a discriminatory mechanism.

Your best chance- is if you're trying to rent in an area where there is little demand- however, Dublin/Wicklow- is off the charts.

peaches08

Yes it's very true I had a few insurance renewals last month and the insurance company asked if I had HAP or students in the house,

It's similar for a student let unless half the people in the house are working

Landlord insurance is always slightly expensive than your home insurance however having full time students and now HAP will increase your policy.

with my existing tenant who wants to go on HAP I just can't oblige, after looking into this it's stacks way in favour of the LA and not the LL

Graham

The_Conductor wrote: »

It is illegal for a landlord to discriminate against you because you're looking to avail of HAP or Rent Supplement. It is not illegal for a landlord to seek 4-6 months rent as a deposit- and use that as a discriminatory mechanism.

I wouldn't recommend any landlord test the legality of an alternative 'discriminatory mechanism'. I certainly wouldn't describe it definitively as 'not illegal'.

IANAL but to my non-legal mind, asking SW tenants for an increased deposit is quite clearly indirect discrimintation: "Indirect discrimination takes place when an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice puts persons of a particular protected class at a particular disadvantage"

peaches08

you're not obliged to take a HAP tenant, it's up to any landlord who they want to accept as a tenant, NOT THE LA
You can also ask for whatever deposit you feel necessary Social Welfare or private renters. It's up to the landlord,

when the council own the houses they can do what they want then regarding deposits etc.
The council have clearly created HAP to get people off the social housing list as a Landlord you are NOT obliged to accept HAP

It's a joke you would really want to be some soft touch to accept HAP with the way it's structured.
Why would anyone accept a HAP tenant over a private renter?
Are they going to sue every landlord that doesn't have HAP tenants, this country is a complete joke with the people they have creating these schemes.

gizmo81

It's also unfair to say HAP is not good for landlords IMO.

For example, In May DCC were offering two months rent an deposit in advance.

https://twitter.com/dubcitycouncil/status/859790792126320640

Graham

peaches08 wrote: »

you're not obliged to take a HAP tenant, it's up to any landlord who they want to accept as a tenant, NOT THE LA
You can also ask for whatever deposit you feel necessary Social Welfare or private renters. It's up to the landlord,

when the council own the houses they can do what they want then regarding deposits etc.
The council have clearly created HAP to get people off the social housing list as a Landlord you are NOT obliged to accept HAP

It's a joke you would really want to be some soft touch to accept HAP with the way it's structured.
Why would anyone accept a HAP tenant over a private renter?
Are they going to sue every landlord that doesn't have HAP tenants, this country is a complete joke with the people they have creating these schemes.

You may want to familiarise yourself with the law before making such blanket statements.

Like it or not, a landlord cannot discriminate against SW tenants.

gizmo81

Graham wrote: »

You may want to familiarise yourself with the law before making such blanket statements.

Like it or not, a landlord cannot discriminate against SW tenants.

In bold, this statement is quite broad, would this cover a landlord looking for excessive deposits, looking for work references etc??

Discrimination on the housing assistance ground, or on any of the nine grounds, may also take the form of landlords or letting agents –

refusing to let you look at the property
refusing to rent the property to you
including discriminatory terms or conditions in leases or other tenancy agreements, whether written down or spoken
refusing to renew your lease or other tenancy agreement
end your lease or other tenancy agreement
withdrawing services related to property, or making it very hard for you to get these services.

https://www.ihrec.ie/your-rights/i-have-an-issue-with-a-service/i-have-an-issue-about-accommodation/

peaches08

two months rent do not make up for the shortfalls in the system, it's a broken system for a landlord my opinion it's not worth it.
that ad shows how desperate the LA are in Dublin, it's a different situation everywhere else in the country.

peaches08

@Gizmo81

Again no Landlord is obliged to accept HAP but yes they can't discriminate against a person, it's totally up to the person who OWNS the property who they choose to live in it and what deposit, reference etc they require..

It's up to the government to sort the housing crisis out, why should private LL do it for them?
Go and use the tax money they are charging to build properties for HAP tenants.

HAP is not worth it for any LL to be involved.

gizmo81

peaches08 wrote: »

@Gizmo81

Again no Landlord is obliged to accept HAP but yes they can't discriminate against a person, it's totally up to the person who OWNS the property who they choose to live in it and what deposit, reference etc they require..

It's up to the government to sort the housing crisis out, why should private LL do it for them?
Go and use the tax money they are charging to build properties for HAP tenants.

HAP is not worth it for any LL to be involved.

Oh sorry I thought you were here for advice

Graham

gizmo81 wrote: »

In bold, this statement is quite broad, would this cover a landlord looking for excessive deposits, looking for work references etc??

My guess would be yes, as they could all indirectly discriminate against SW tenants.

A sensible landlord might ask for 2 or 3 references including a current landlords reference.