Case for unfair dismassal?

fussyonion

Posting on behalf of a friend.
Let's call him John.

John has been working in a department store for ten years.

In his job, he is encouraged to acquire extended warranties from customers on the items they buy.

He does his very best to acquire these warranties, explaining the benefits of taking one out etc, but ultimately if the customer doesn't want one, they don't want one.

Recently a new manager came on board in the store and has told John he isn't reaching his targets regarding warranties.

He has been asked if he 'needs more training' in order to be able to persuade customers to take out the warranty.

John said he doesn't feel he needs more training and that he is doing what he is being asked to; giving the suggested sales pitch, explaining the benefits of the warranty, etc but ultimately the customer decides he doesn't want to take it.

John is being told he will be issued a formal warning very soon if he doesn't improve his warranty sales.

If he doesn't, then he'll be issued a formal warning and then dismassal.

He has been told 'it's in your contract to hit targets' when he questioned if it was in his contract.
John is doubtful. He doesn't remember signing a contract.

My question is: can John be dismissed for not hitting these targets?
Surely, you can only bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

If John is carrying out his job the way he's supposed to, to the best of his ability and he's doing all he's being told to in order to obtain the warranty, but still can't get it, where is he going wrong?

If he is dismissed and there is no evidence of a contract where these warranty targets are mentioned, would this be unfair dismassal?

Very interested in your advice and thank you.

dar100

How long is John working with the organisation?

How is John doing with targets relative to his co workers?

John really should know whether he signed a contract?

You don't technically need to have a contract! However you do need to be given a written copy of terms and conditions

fussyonion

dar100 wrote: »

How long is John working with the organisation?

How is John doing with targets relative to his co workers?

John really should know whether he signed a contract?

You don't technically need to have a contract! However you do need to be given a written copy of terms and conditions

He's been there 10 years.

He doesn't remember actually signing anything back then.

If he requests a copy of the terms and conditions now, who's to say they won't just insert the warranty targets into it if it wasn't there to start with?

If he requests a copy of his contract from Head Office and they say they don't have it, how can he acquire it?

His manager has told him this is in his contract so he would obviously need to see this contract if it so exists.

dar100

fussyonion wrote: »

He's been there 10 years.

He doesn't remember actually signing anything back then.

If he requests a copy of the terms and conditions now, who's to say they won't just insert the warranty targets into it if it wasn't there to start with?

If he requests a copy of his contract from Head Office and they say they don't have it, how can he acquire it?

His manager has told him this is in his contract so he would obviously need to see this contract if it so exists.

Is this a new practice? Have you been working to these targets previously ?

If it's a new manager and he has seen the contract then they must have s copy of it in your personnel file, ask for it

fussyonion

dar100 wrote: »

Is this a new practice? Have you been working to these targets previously ?

If it's a new manager and he has seen the contract then they must have s copy of it in your personnel file, ask for it

Employees were always encouraged to get warranties but it's only since this new manager came on board that he's been threatening formal warnings.

Employees were not threatened or brought into meetings and made to feel that their job was at risk.

The previous manager never did this.
Good point about the contract; if he has seen it then it must be available for John to see too.

I suppose it comes down to the contract and its' contents as to what happens next.

Thanks for your help.

dar100

fussyonion wrote: »

Employees were always encouraged to get warranties but it's only since this new manager came on board that he's been threatening formal warnings.

Employees were not threatened or brought into meetings and made to feel that their job was at risk.

The previous manager never did this.
Good point about the contract; if he has seen it then it must be available for John to see too.

I suppose it comes down to the contract and its' contents as to what happens next.

Thanks for your help.

Well not really, if you weren't expected to work to targets for the last 10 years, then they can't really just decide to enforce it st a whim!!

fussyonion

dar100 wrote: »

Well not really, if you weren't expected to work to targets for the last 10 years, then they can't really just decide to enforce it st a whim!!

Yeah it does seem weird that it's only being enforced since the new manager came on board.

dar100

fussyonion wrote: »

Yeah it does seem weird that it's only being enforced since the new manager came on board.

https://www.peninsulagrouplimited.com/guides/custom-and-practice/

fussyonion

dar100 wrote: »

https://www.peninsulagrouplimited.com/guides/custom-and-practice/

That's very interesting. I've bookmarked that site. Thank you.

jimmycrackcorm

John should ask to see a copy of his contract that he signed without delay, as in mane sure that it doesn't s suddenly have a clause inserted.

The manager is walking on thin ice trying to threaten the sack if John is meeting targets on normal sales. Are the other staff subject to the same targets?

A labour court action publicizing how these warranties are a scam would be very damaging for the manner and the business.

AmberGold

BS, John would have to have been offered a "Sales Incentive" plan or something similar which would lay out mutually agreed terms I.e. Target, Time Period, Incentive blah blah, in my company this is signed by the salesperson and kept on file.

This boss is an ass & could possibly have an agenda, 10 years is a long time, John should play along and in the background document everything, time, dates of discussions what's discussed etc.
Only when things start getting serious (written warning) should he ask for a copy of his contract, the sales plan and the employee handbook.

If John asks for this contract now he could be considered trouble and they could try and manage him out on any basis.


The response will dictate next steps.

dreamers75

PIP(performance improvement plan) would be offered 1st assuming the contract does state that ( it probably doesnt), the company would have a policy relating to it and a policy of not meeting targets.

The fact he has 10 years of meeting his alleged targets is proof that it was custom so therefore acceptable , the fact he never had a PIP means it was never an issue.

John needs to buy a diary and record every meeting with management/HR on the issue. Also read up on constructive dismissal, its only unfair if he is dismissed (unlikely). Its constructive if he leaves.

How much is John on and how much are new hires on.......

John should start looking for new jobs.

How big is this company???? in terms of stores you dont need to name them.

dar100

dreamers75 wrote: »

PIP(performance improvement plan) would be offered 1st assuming the contract does state that ( it probably doesnt), the company would have a policy relating to it and a policy of not meeting targets.

The fact he has 10 years of meeting his alleged targets is proof that it was custom so therefore acceptable , the fact he never had a PIP means it was never an issue.

John needs to buy a diary and record every meeting with management/HR on the issue. Also read up on constructive dismissal, its only unfair if he is dismissed (unlikely). Its constructive if he leaves.

How much is John on and how much are new hires on.......

John should start looking for new jobs.

How big is this company???? in terms of stores you dont need to name them.

It has been a custom and practice for the last 10 years to not make an issue out of warranties!!

AmberGold

& btw unfair dismissal is a case not easily won. It can take over two years to get to the EAT and the max award is two years earnings ( taxed) less any thing you may have earned in the two years. Not a recommended route, never mind the impact on a reference which he will need as he was there for 10 years.

dreamers75

dar100 wrote: »

It has been a custom and practice for the last 10 years to not make an issue out of warranties!!

For his previous manager who may just have been **** at his job? There are not many companies in Ireland who sell this extra warranty in a department store. So whoever it is is most likely foreign and would have one "base".

He would/should have to be PIP`d for any disciplinary action to take place. So there should be a policy doc on it. If there is not... well easy money for him.

AmberGold wrote: »

& btw unfair dismissal is a case not easily won. It can take over two years to get to the EAT and the max award is two years earnings ( taxed) less any thing you may have earned in the two years. Not a recommended route, never mind the impact on a reference which he will need as he was there for 10 years.

Yes they are.....they are won every day because people who sack people are stupid.....its ridiculous what you have to do to sack someone and ensure you have solid gold case for the inevitable court case.

It literally does not matter what the employee did honestly he could murder fellow employees....but if you dont follow your own policies and document every stage and even ensure you have offered to help the employee not murder other staff then you lose.

http://www.lrc.ie/en/Cases/2017/May

Have fun reading that, I read them once a month.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Samuel T. Cogley

AFAIK they can give him a warning up to a final written warning without following fair procedures. When it comes to dismissal then there would have to be a full hearing. If I was the store manager I'd approach it from the point of view that he had refused training. On a practical level, take the training, take copious notes on what the trainer expects, implement it and keep notes on where it didn't work.

My advise would be either just leave or speak to a solicitor. They will be able to steer him on how to approach a disciplinary and negotiate an exit if needed.

AmberGold

dreamers75 wrote: »

Yes they are.....they are won every day because people who sack people are stupid.....its ridiculous what you have to do to sack someone and ensure you have solid gold case for the inevitable court case.

It literally does not matter what the employee did honestly he could murder fellow employees....but if you dont follow your own policies and document every stage and even ensure you have offered to help the employee not murder other staff then you lose.

http://www.lrc.ie/en/Cases/2017/May

Have fun reading that, I read them once a month.

Yes I'm well up to speed on the LRC site (thanks a million) and the amount of wins on behalf of the employee. It also seems the OP's boss is lining up for a fail.

I was referring to the amount of time it takes to get into the Tribunal, the costs involved and the paltry awards given the hassle & stress combined with the loss of income. Never mind the fact that the EAT lists the name of the company and person taking the case on their website. One can easily be labelled as being litigious which could make future employers think twice.

Having gone through this personally myself and experienced what's involved its a process not to enter without due consideration to the points I have outlined.