Hyundai Kona

BoatMad

They have to look at speed limits for sure as electric is going to be biblically quick when they all start competiting against each other

Thank **** Tesla make quick cars and didnt go the Nissan route of boring us to deat

Personally , I find the current Leaf has far more power then I need for a typically Jap Econo-box, low end pickup is very good and more then sufficient for good overtaking. 50-70 mph is a little weak , but then again the leaf is not a > 60mph car in my view, so the issue doesnt arise

note that BHP, torque and Kw are simple the same measurement, they are mathematically related ( by a constant )

I suspect Nissan are raising the power to just improve 50-70 and also to prepare the body for the weight of a larger battery as well

As for biblically quick EVs, yes the technology can provide it and certain segments ( hot hatch and medallion men etc ) will pay for performance, but the regulatory environment to exploit powerful cars is rapidly becoming draconian.

My own view is that EV performance will range across many models , just like current ICE, with pedestrian performance models and high performance models being offered across a range of cars

unkel

Jaysus you killjoy. I'd take a RWD EV with lots of power anytime over our Asian adequately powered Econo-boxes with FWD

And not a medallion in sight on my hairy chest

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Personally , I find the current Leaf has far more power then I need for a typically Jap Econo-box, low end pickup is very good and more then sufficient for good overtaking. 50-70 mph is a little weak , but then again the leaf is not a > 60mph car in my view, so the issue doesnt arise

note that BHP, torque and Kw are simple the same measurement, they are mathematically related ( by a constant )

I suspect Nissan are raising the power to just improve 50-70 and also to prepare the body for the weight of a larger battery as well

As for biblically quick EVs, yes the technology can provide it and certain segments ( hot hatch and medallion men etc ) will pay for performance, but the regulatory environment to exploit powerful cars is rapidly becoming draconian.

My own view is that EV performance will range across many models , just like current ICE, with pedestrian performance models and high performance models being offered across a range of cars

My leaf - during the work week anyway - spends more time north of, than south of, 60 "mph" (~100km/h in real terms)

bk

liamog wrote: »

With that range you don't need to charge at home, you could just charge at public chargers once a week (it works both ways)

Sure, but I'd be very surprised if public charging, in particular fast charging would be cheaper then charging at home once price charging for public charging comes in!

And anyway why would you bother your ass sitting around in some crappy garage twice a week for 30 minutes each time, when you can much more easily plug in at home and go to bed and wake up with a nice full car (handy if you have an unexpected trip).

I can't see many people using public charging beyond necessity (long distance driving, or live in an apartment, no charger), once they have to start paying for public charging.

liamog

Public charging won't be cheaper than home charging, but a subscription plus homelike costs (see Fastned Power) for 18 months is about the same as a private home install.
Nissan used to give a free 2 year fastned subscription with purchase, Hyundai have a subscription plan covering charging costs in California.

I'll stick to charging whilst I'm picking up my groceries, I don't fancy driving to a crappy garage either.
I'll probably manage just fine without the car being 100% every morning, we spent years driving cars that weren't at full range everyday.

The Kona is rumoured to have a 50kWh battery, presuming they use the same or better battery tech as the Ioniq it should be capable of charging up to 125kW.
That could give you 300km of range in 20 minutes.

bk

liamog wrote: »

Public charging won't be cheaper than home charging, but a subscription plus homelike costs (see Fastned Power) for 18 months is about the same as a private home install.

Fastned looks great, but eCars seemed to be suggesting much higher costs lasy year. No guarantee we will end up with fastned type charging.

And even with fastned type pricing, it would still seem like a poor economic decision. 18 months isn't long, most people keep their car at least 3 years. So it would make more financial sense to pay for a home charger.

Specially if you consider that once most people go EV, they very rarely go back. So the EV charger you install today will likely continue to work for years if not decades to come.

So even fastneds attractive pricing would still be much less attractive then home charging.

liamog wrote: »

I'll stick to charging whilst I'm picking up my groceries, I don't fancy driving to a crappy garage either.

I prefer ordering my groceries at home sitting on the sofa with the TV on in the background and having a Tesco driver bring them right into my kitchen the next day, rather then the hell of dragging kids around a crappy shopping center

Seriously Tesco's delivery service is the best thing since sliced pan IMO.

ELM327

If the esb pricing is too high, arguably that could be good as it may encourage others like fastned or ecotricity to install chargers here

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

If the esb pricing is too high, arguably that could be good as it may encourage others like fastned or ecotricity to install chargers here

No because , any competitor knows that the ESB can simply reduce pricing to make them suddenly uncompetitive

its like the way Ryanair removes competition


its a function of market dominance , which in effect the ESB has

thats needs regulation , not competition

BoatMad

I'll stick to charging whilst I'm picking up my groceries, I don't fancy driving to a crappy garage either.

Thats fine as long as its a slow destination charger

what you will not be able to do , is leave a EV at the fast charger for more then its charging session . Thats only a function of the current " free " uncontrolled access model

That will end this year

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

No because , any competitor knows that the ESB can simply reduce pricing to make them suddenly uncompetitive

its like the way Ryanair removes competition


its a function of market dominance , which in effect the ESB has

thats needs regulation , not competition

It's the issue with an inherent monopoly I suppose, the cost of entry to the market and the price control potential is a barrier to any - even substantial like fastned - new entrants

cros13

FastNed's long term plans include a few Irish locations.

A UK expansion beyond London is likely first and the priority is probably the German expansion that they just started.

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

Thats fine as long as its a slow destination charger

what you will not be able to do , is leave a EV at the fast charger for more then its charging session . Thats only a function of the current " free " uncontrolled access model

That will end this year

I'm beginning to worry about how long some EV drivers take to pick up groceries.
If it's taking you 4 hours your doing it wrong.

I take about 30 minutes, which seems to align with expectations for FCP charge times.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

That will end this year

Au contraire. Lidl have already rolled out over 100 fast ABB DC chargers (53kW) free to use for customers. First one in Ireland opened last month. Drive up with your near empty car, charge, do your 25 minute weekly grocery shop and return to your car just about to finish charging.

Over time the charger costs will come down and businesses will slowly start installing them. Even if they started installing 20 Kw DC points in the likes of supermarkets and on street chargers it would greatly help a lot, while I love AC 20 Kw DC points would be a lot more useful to most EV owners but the AC points would be a lot cheaper.

unkel

20kW is still far too slow! My shop takes 20-25 minutes, not an hour and a half. I'm not gonna sit down and wait an hour after my shopping is done. And I'm not going to bother hooking up to take just 10kWh on board.

53kW chargers are adequate for now. Hope these can be upgraded to 150kW in a few years time.

20 kw chargers are plenty at supermarkets for an hours shopping at the likes of Tesco Naas , they could have 8 of them instead of one 60 kw charger.

20 kWh in an hour is far better than what most electrics get in an hour on AC.

unkel

Yeah it's better than those ridiculous AC chargers, they belong firmly back in 2009 :pac:


But 20kW is nowhere near good enough going forward. I doubt the average Lidl customer spends more than 25 minute in the shop. Let alone an hour and a half.

samih

More chargers are definitely welcome in the grim network of Ireland but placing them in yet another shopping location to be hogged by freeloaders seem utterly wrong.

Supermarket charging only needs to provide enough electricity for return trip to home really. 60 kW DC charger is great if there is only 1 EV driver in town but for more than one EV customer, a row of 7 kW stations would be much more useful going forward. 20 minutes of charging would give you approx. 2 kWh, enough to do a return trip from next town. If two EVs shop at the same time you'd need to wait for your turn to charge. Combine this for long distance drivers using the free charge point will turn any such location to another Naas.

Water John

The reality of future uptake of EV means, charging at a public point will have to be quick. Logistics dictate that. It will be, how many cars can be charged by that charger in an hour, a day?
This had to be viewed 10/20 years ahead. Where is the whole project going?
Speed of converting personal transport to EV, will depend on the weakest link.

The collolary is pulling an ICE into a petrol station and getting your tank filled through an hospital IV line.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Yeah it's better than those ridiculous AC chargers, they belong firmly back in 2009 :pac:


But 20kW is nowhere near good enough going forward. I doubt the average Lidl customer spends more than 25 minute in the shop. Let alone an hour and a half.

The AC chargers are far from ridiculous, on many occasions AC has saved me driving to and waiting at a fast charger. Don't knock it because you deem the AC network useless. Until there are faster chargers everywhere then AC is highly useful especially with 7 + Kw on board chargers.

unkel

@Water John - like an ICE on an IV drip, I love the analogy

samih wrote: »

Supermarket charging only needs to provide enough electricity for return trip to home really.

No disrespect, but that's a ridiculous statement. Why would anyone go through the trouble of getting their cable out, plug it in both ends, just to gain a couple of kWh

Deleted User wrote: »

The AC chargers are far from ridiculous

For non Zoe owners they are completely useless and ridiculous unless you are desperate to get juice and won't be able to finish your journey otherwise

No unkel ask any leaf owner with 6.6 kw charger, far from useless utter bs thing to come out with.

As I said, on many occasions they have saved me needing to use fast chargers at all, you just don't get it fine.

samih

Unkel, with no disrespect you have been spoiled with your free local DC charger that you use instead of your personal EVSE. What LIDL should cater for are EV users that reach home at low state of charge at the end of the day but can regardless head to the localish shop as they are guaranteed to get enough juice in the trip to make it back home (to plug in there overnight).

Installing a fast charger in shops is wrong especially if it's FOC as it will attract freeloaders that will stop you using it when you really need it to get back home.

Gumbo

One FCP or a bank of SCP, I'd rather the bank of slow chargers myself too.
If I use your supermarket, then I'm there for 30 mins minimum and a little on board is better than none imho.

If it was a FCP, then the car shouldn't be left abandoned so would negate its usefulness.

unkel

samih wrote: »

What LIDL should cater for are EV users that reach home at low state of charge at the end of the day but can regardless head to the localish shop as they are guaranteed to get enough juice in the trip to make it back home

Thankfully Lidl don't agree with you. And how far do people live away from their local supermarket that they couldn't make it home without topping up? Ridiculous point. You wouldn't make a small detour to go shopping if that meant you might run out of juice (if the slow charger wasn't working)

Slow chargers are for people who don't have home charging who can park up all day (at train station park and rides etc.) or tourists staying somewhere for at least several hours, but even at that stretch they are very 2009. Hopefully soon enough all charging is fast and charged for (except the brilliant Lidl initiative of a free quick charge to go with your cheap quick grocery shop)

unkel

kceire wrote: »

One FCP or a bank of SCP, I'd rather the bank of slow chargers myself too.
If I use your supermarket, then I'm there for 30 mins minimum and a little on board is better than none imho.

kceire wrote: »

If it's a slow charger then it trickle charges the car. They are called SCP's and designed as destination chargers. So you park up and plug in all day or whatever is required.

No EV owner would be planning to use one of these during the course of the day unless you could be plugged in for a couple of hours.

samih

unkel wrote: »

And how far do people live away from their local supermarket that they couldn't make it home without topping up? Ridiculous point. You wouldn't make a small detour to go shopping if that meant you might run out of juice (if the slow charger wasn't working)

It all depends on your point of view but for many 24 kWh Leaf drivers driving to local supermarket might be the final trip of the day that is too far. If there was a bank of slow chargers you'd be guaranteed to find one that was working and free. If there is only one FCP instead you couldn't count on it at all. I guess it would be useful if your local store was out of a weekly item and there was one available at Drogheda.

Funny that some other 24 kWh Leaf drivers above with much more experience on how it's to live with one agree with usefulness of multiple SCPs over one FCP at supermarket.

unkel

That's because they are used to the "old" system. People are set in their ways. I've seen it mentioned here many times: "sure a little top up will do no harm", "better than nothing" etc.

I honestly can't see why someone would top up at 3.3kWh per hour for a 30 minute supermarket visit (a saving of €0.10)

Unless they absolutely had to. Who would go through all that trouble for €0.10? Would that 1.5kWh really make the difference in getting you home?

Even for a first gen Leaf with a dodgy battery and only a 90km range, this is very unlikely (90km * 365 days = 32k km per year, almost double the national average)

unkel

And for the record, I've slow charged just twice. Once to try it out and once as a tourist visiting a town for the best part of a day so that's was very useful. Like I said, slow chargers are only of use for:

-tourists
-park and ride for people going to work or anyone parked at their work
-on street for people who have no home charging

And all of those are only useful because there aren't more fast chargers! We need plenty of fast chargers for those people, and people will need to pay for charging. But if the likes of Lidl are providing fast chargers free of charge for their customers, they have my blessing

KCross

I like the Kona anyway!