Do I have grounds for compensation ?

masculinist

I'm not sure whether this post belongs in the Legal section or the banking section. I need advice about whether my complaint would be seen as valid and whether compensation should be forthcoming.

I set up a direct debit with Virgin Media for a mobile account.

I cashed in an insurance policy in the UK in April

The Insurance company sent a cheque for the sum which is in the thousands to the PTSB. (very bad form from the insurance company as I had asked for a bank transfer)

The PTSB returned the cheque to the UK claiming they didnt know who I was despite the IBAN and my name and address being included with the cheque. They made no effort to lodge my money into my account. I have that letter returning the cheque from the PTSB dated the 2nd of May. The cheque arrived well before then. Cheques take 5 working days to clear.

Virgin Mobile billed me 10 euro for each time their small charge of 5 euro bounced from the bank account.


Unpaid Direct Debit 17 May 17 € 10.00
Unpaid Direct Debit 09 May 17 € 10.00


Thats 20 euro down because of a really stupid error on the part of my bank


Is Virgin Mobile is billing me a charge which PTSB passed onto them or is this a punitive measure by the mobile company to deter unpaid bills ? The charge is a multiple of the actual amount owing.

If the PTSB had not returned my cheque which had been sent as a deposit to my account with correct IBAN etc , then the very small sums owing to Virgin Mobile would never have bounced. I had assumed the money would have been there long before the charge was presented to the account.
This appears to be clearly the fault of PTSB.

Do I have a case to get my 20 euro back from PTSB ? Surely I should expect a cheque presented to my account to be lodged and not returned ? Why would a bank refuse money when its not that long ago that all banks were in serious financial difficulty ? Is that the sort of service I should be happy with ?
Cheques take 5 days to clear. The money should have been clearly in the account before the direct debits were presented.

Stheno

I'd say you've no case tbh

Why did ptsb claim they didn't know what account the cheque was in reference to?

Senna

Compensation from who?

Who did they post the cheque to, the branch your account was in?
Sounds like a very strange practice, a UK Insurnace company posted a cheque to your Irish bank, rather than you. Why would they do that?

The J Stands for Jay

I'd say you'd have better grounds for compensation from the UK insurer. They ignored your instructions for a transfer and instead sent a foreign currency cheque to your bank account

masculinist

Stheno wrote: »

I'd say you've no case tbh

Why did ptsb claim they didn't know what account the cheque was in reference to?

The PTSB returned the cheque to the UK claiming they did not know who I was despite the fact that I've had an account with them since the 90s. They did not even bother to look up my IBAN and lodge the cheque or even call me with any queries. Surely they should accept a lodgement to my account from a legitimate and regulated company ?

I did not discover this fact until rang the insurance company in the UK a few weeks later.

Senna wrote: »

Compensation from who?

Who did they post the cheque to, the branch your account was in?
Sounds like a very strange practice, a UK Insurnace company posted a cheque to your Irish bank, rather than you. Why would they do that?

A very strange and terrible thing to do for sure. Quite ridiculous as I was expecting a bank transfer.
And it cost me 20 euro in unpaid direct debits. If this 20 euro was a charge which was passed onto me by Virgin Mobile which PTSB had charged them then I would consider that I have a moral case for that 20 euro to be returned to me. Simply because otherwise PTSB would be profiting off that damage it did to me. Profiting from its own stupidity and charging me for their own error. Do you see what Im saying here ?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

How do you know the cheque from the insurer was sent with the IBAN details?

What date was your bill due? You say the letter was dated the 2nd may but when did you receive it in the post?

Nervous Wreck

PTSB wouldn't be charging Virgin for this. Have you a copy of the letter Virgin sent to the bank? Did it include your full details I.e. Name, IBAN etc. If your name is Bill Healy and they've got 6 Bill Healys and weren't given an IBAN, they wouldn't be able to identify you. If Virgin haven't supplied this letters, I'd request that...

masculinist

Noa Witty Easel wrote: »

How do you know the cheque from the insurer was sent with the IBAN details?

What date was your bill due? You say the letter was dated the 2nd may but when did you receive it in the post?

I received the correspondence straight from the bank. Their own letter on file of their response is dated 2nd May and has them writing a letter sending the cheque back and denying knowledge of my existence despite the letter itself being traceable from my bank account... which clearly exists...

I couldnt make this up ...

And the bill was due in time for the cheque to clear.

The second time they asked for the money from the account was 8 or 9 days later. And that cost me a second 10 euro on top of the first 10

Is this 10 euro charge per bounced debit from Virgin Mobile merely passing on a charge which PTSB charged them profiting off their own negligence?

Just to be absolutely clear here:

What identifying information was on or sent along with ten cheque

masculinist

Deleted User wrote: »

Just to be absolutely clear here:

What identifying information was on or sent along with ten cheque

My name , address and IBAN , BIC etc .

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

What date did you receive the letter from the bank? You said again it was dated the 2nd but what date did you receive it?

What date was the bill / DD due?

It looks like it was due on the 9th may? Is that correct?

Nervous Wreck

Incidentally, I just googled "Vodafone missed direct debit" and found that they charge €10 per missed DD.

masculinist

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

PTSB wouldn't be charging Virgin for this. Have you a copy of the letter Virgin sent to the bank? Did it include your full details I.e. Name, IBAN etc. If your name is Bill Healy and they've got 6 Bill Healys and weren't given an IBAN, they wouldn't be able to identify you. If Virgin haven't supplied this letters, I'd request that...

Virgin didnt send any letter to the bank. The insurance company sent a cheque to the bank
. The bank returned the cheque along with a letter denying knowledge of my existence.
I'm trying to figure out whos profited from this ? Virgin or the PTSB ? Because I certainly havent. Virgin charged me 20 euro for 2 unpaid direct debits.

And, am I eligible for compensation of 20 euro for services which can reasonably be expected of a bank , as this 20 euro is my loss because of their refusal of the cheque lodgement to my account.

masculinist

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Incidentally, I just googled "Vodafone missed direct debit" and found that they charge €10 per missed DD.

I feel like I'm repeating myself. This is not Vodafone. This is Virgin Mobile.

Noa Witty Easel wrote: »

It looks like it was due on the 9th may? Is that correct? What date did you receive the letter from the bank? You said again it was dated the 2nd but what date did you receive it?

What date was the bill / DD due?

The bank returned my cheque on the 2nd of May. After calling the UK, I went in person to the branch in Dublin and they printed out a letter dated 2nd May which they had sent to the Insurance company in the UK along with my cheque which they did not lodge.

The cheque arrived before that date.
Lets say it was returned on the same day it arrived (which is easy to claim since the PTSBs own correspondence admits they had the cheque in their possession on that date) - which is unlikely as I was expecting that cheque to be lodged mid April. That means the first direct debit was on the 9th of May which was 7 days later. A cheque requires 5 days to clear.

The second time an unpaid direct debit was presented to my account was 17th May which was 15 days after the cheque was returned to the UK.

I am reading these dates and the charges directly from the Virgin Mobile web account login.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Are you ignoring my question?
What date did you receive the letter from the bank?

It is a key piece of information and you haven't answered the question despite me asking you twice already.

If you received the notice from the bank before the DD was due to be taken then the fault is your own.

masculinist

Noa Witty Easel wrote: »

Are you ignoring my question?

What date did you receive the letter from the bank?

Why would you think I am ignoring your question ? I explained in a lot of detail what happened. The bank sent me no letters. I went to the branch and obtained a copy of their correspondence with the insurance company. And I did this sometime last week. I'm pretty easy going . However I was charged 20 euro due to the banks error. Not mine. Does this make me eligible to apply for compensation of the 20 euro charged for an unpaid direct debit ?

Nervous Wreck

masculinist wrote: »

Virgin didnt send any letter to the bank. The insurance company sent a cheque to the bank
. The bank returned the cheque along with a letter denying knowledge of my existence.
I'm trying to figure out whos profited from this ? Virgin or the PTSB ? Because I certainly havent. Virgin charged me 20 euro for 2 unpaid direct debits.

And, am I eligible for compensation of 20 euro for services which can reasonably be expected of a bank , as this 20 euro is my loss because of their refusal of the cheque lodgement to my account.

Virgin charge €10. 3 seconds on google.

http://support.virginmedia.ie/app/answers/detail/a_id/134/related/1/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNDk1OTMwNTcyL3NpZC9jamJRbkZqbg%3D%3D/~/late-payment-fee

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

masculinist wrote: »

I received the correspondence straight from the bank.
...

As you stated the above. Thank you for clarifying that you went into the branch.

Did you speak to the branch manager? What was their response?

masculinist

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Virgin charge €10. 3 seconds on google.

http://support.virginmedia.ie/app/answers/detail/a_id/134/related/1/session/L2F2LzEvdGltZS8xNDk1OTMwNTcyL3NpZC9jamJRbkZqbg%3D%3D/~/late-payment-fee

I already told you that in the very first post on this thread.

1)Is Virgin passing on a charge which PTSB charged them ?

2) Am I eligible for compensation through some mechanism for a charge which wasnt my fault because I would expect a bank to actually facilitate my banking. Is that not a reasonable expectation ? That they actually facilitate my banking and not deny my existence ?

masculinist

Noa Witty Easel wrote: »

As you stated the above. Thank you for clarifying that you went into the branch.

Did you speak to the branch manager? What was their response?

I'm not really sure who I spoke with to be honest.
If you can advise me to a course of action which might help me , I will take it on Monday. I'm not someone with any experience of making complaints. I was sort of stunned and confused that this actually happened. It seemed so ridiculous and it was lunchtime in the branch so I just went about my business trying to process what had happened.

msshono

A quick google of PTSB unpaid DD says €10 per DD - all banks do this so most likely the €20 goes to PTSB.

Unless things have changed dramatically, a cheque drawn on a foreign bank takes much longer to clear than 5 days - the 5 days applies to domestic (Ire Euro) cheques. The clearing time could be anything up to four weeks in my experience- PTSB will be able to tell you their average time frame. Based on this they could have grounds to say that even if the cheque was lodged on receipt it would not be cleared in time to have available funds to meet the DDs.

You need to confirm the applicable time frames, look at the end to end time frame of the event and see then who has made the error. If it's PTSB then make a formal complaint (as per CPC code), ask for reimbursement of the fees and if you're not happy with the outcome you can take your final (bank) response to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

masculinist

msshono wrote: »

A quick google of PTSB unpaid DD says €10 per DD - all banks do this so most likely the €20 goes to PTSB.

Unless things have changed dramatically, a cheque drawn on a foreign bank takes much longer to clear than 5 days - the 5 days applies to domestic (Ire Euro) cheques. The clearing time could be anything up to four weeks in my experience- PTSB will be able to tell you their average time frame. Based on this they could have grounds to say that even if the cheque was lodged on receipt it would not be cleared in time to have available funds to meet the DDs.

You need to confirm the applicable time frames, look at the end to end time frame of the event and see then who has made the error. If it's PTSB then make a formal complaint (as per CPC code), ask for reimbursement of the fees and if you're not happy with the outcome you can take your final (bank) response to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

Thanks . It would be a Euro Cheque from the UK .

msshono

masculinist wrote: »

Thanks . It would be a Euro Cheque from the UK .

Appreciate that but it's still drawn on a foreign bank so I don't believe 5 days clearance applies. Only PTSB can confirm that accurately for you however.

Graham

masculinist wrote: »

Thanks . It would be a Euro Cheque from the UK .

1) cheque drawn on a UK bank would take longer to clear as someone else mentioned.

2) do you have an agreement with your bank that cheques can be posted in to them for lodgement? It's not a service of heard of any bank offering.

Aimeee

As far as I know most companies will charge you for unmet direct debits. Presumably to deter customers from regularly doing so. (Edit: just saw previous post with explanation. Makes sense that bank would be charging for unmet dds).

You could try writing/talking to bank see if they'll refund the charges for you in view of the fact that they didn't lodge your cheque but tbh I wouldn't be too hopeful.
As far as they are concerned you didn't ensure funds were in account to meet the virgin direct debit.
I'd be phoning the insurance company asap to find out why they sent the cheque to your bank and not directly to yourself. This I find very strange. Do you know why they did this? Surely they can do a transfer using bic/iban anyway eliminating the need for any cheque?

masculinist

Well heres the full story about the insurance company.. just so I can get it off my chest and get some sleep. The insurance company was Equitable Life in the UK who used to be in Dublin

I opened up a with profits with them at the last minute back in the day as a gamble in case they demutualised. Trying to get free shares was a popular posttime back then and it worked out great for me and many others in many cases.

In the end the small sum I originally invested and forgotten about had tripled in value by the time I cashed it in (before any compensations) which was decent enough. However I wonder if despite being solvent , they have been dragging their heels about paying me ?

I filled out a form to cash the policy in stipulating a bank transfer. Instead they sent a cheque to the branch. I find that absolutely nuts. Just as nuts as refusing to lodge a cheque received to my account.
Then I had to call them to find out why the money wasnt there. And thats when they told me the cheque had been returned. They hadnt been in a hurry to tell me it had been returned either.
They told me over the phone that they are charged 38 euro for a bank transfer which is the reason for the cheque. 38 Euro doesnt make much sense to me as Ive transferred larger sums from other countries before outside of the Eurozone and been charged less. Considering bank transfers was how I originally paid for the policy which I had opened in Ireland under Irish law and considering I gave them my IBAN etc , I thought I could reasonably expect for encashment to simply reverse this process.

masculinist

Graham wrote: »

1) cheque drawn on a UK bank would take longer to clear as someone else mentioned.

I lodged a Standard Life dividend cheque in Euros . They are based in the UK.

The PTSB told me it would be cleared in 5 days . whats the difference ?

Graham

masculinist wrote: »

I lodged a Standard Life dividend cheque in Euros . They are based in the UK.

The PTSB told me it would be cleared in 5 days . whats the difference ?

Having seen neither of the cheques and/or the banks they were drawn on I have no idea.

Some banks may allow you to draw against a lodged foreign cheque after a few days and/or show it as cleared even though there is a chance it could subsequently be returned unpaid. Depends on the bank/branch and probably your relationship/history with them.

Nervous Wreck

masculinist wrote: »

I already told you that in the very first post on this thread.

1)Is Virgin passing on a charge which PTSB charged them ?

Jesus... no. If PTSB are going to charge anyone for an unpaid DD, they will charge YOU. As per the link, Virgin have their own charge. It's there in black and white on their website. Nowhere on their site does it say that they're going to charge you €10 because your bank charges them. Virgin charged you this fee independently and, seeing that it's in their T&Cs, were correct to do so.

masculinist wrote: »

2) Am I eligible for compensation through some mechanism for a charge which wasnt my fault because I would expect a bank to actually facilitate my banking. Is that not a reasonable expectation ? That they actually facilitate my banking and not deny my existence ?

That's a question you need to ask your bank.

28064212

Graham wrote: »

2) do you have an agreement with your bank that cheques can be posted in to them for lodgement? It's not a service of heard of any bank offering.

This needs to be answered. If the bank doesn't explicitly offer that service, you have no case whatsoever.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Talk to a branch manager, preferably in your own branch. Explain the situation - a cheque was received but not lodged and returned to the sender. He will give you the reason it was returned.

If the bank made a mistake, the manager will probably reimburse you for the charges.