BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

dfx-

n97 mini wrote: »

The map on page 13... surely a "high frequency service" is every 15 mins off peak and less than that peak? Not sure how anyone can consider every hour off peak high frequency.

But you would be able to stand at your new bus stop for that 15 minutes and even have a shelter to wait for your new coloured bus.

This is exactly what you would fear would happen with this sort of "network review" which isn't really a review at all. You would wonder when the NTA are ever going to take responsibility for the service offered or punt it down the road again. This is more of the same.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

new bus stops, corridors and new liveries - all a waste of time. Honestly this obsession about changing liveries is utterly stupid. The 13 and 15 and 40 will be late and bunching as ever (sometimes five 40s at a time) but in a new shiny colour! Woo!

It's not an obsession however - it is part of an overall plan to transform bus services to how they are in other countries, the bus stop information and infrastructure and general information provision is all over the place in Ireland as is the ticketing system, integration is terrible and a complete mess, simply because you have all operators doing their own thing rather than looking at the bigger picture which always has to be the number one factor.

The network itself is also part of the consultation and plan from the NTA, which will certainly help with running times and bus lateness, a lot of the delays are caused by LUAS Cross City, when it is completed it will allow for a re-draw of timetables and schedules and running times and I would expect to see progress then, but when the city center is a building site there is always going to be knock on effects.

Smithers19

At the end of the day the NTA should spend all the money on buses and that would provide a far better return.

Cancel the tendering of services and use the money saved by this for new buses.

Problem solved.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

This is exactly what you would fear would happen with this sort of "network review" which isn't really a review at all. You would wonder when the NTA are ever going to take responsibility for the service offered or punt it down the road again. This is more of the same.

This isn't the network review.

It's mentioned in the document yes, but there will be a different document and consultation launched about the network itself and the changes that will be made to routes, the other proposals in the PDF are in addition to the network review, of which I would expect more details to follow in the next few months.

hmmm

devnull wrote: »

There was a new Transport for Ireland livery proposed for Bus Eireann PSO vehicles a number of years back and at the time there was a lot of pressure from the unions to drop the new livery and in the end there was a compromise which is the current PSO livery.

I thought we were very close to a "this is the final straw" moment when DB threatened to go out on strike over BE - the public were fed up with transport strikes and were open to the government taking action. It would be a very foolish move to go on strike over something like branding, it would have absolutely no public support whatsoever.

Smithers19

Livery is very important, most people grew up with Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann and trust them, they would not trust private operators and this is what this is all about, the government want to privatise public transport and removing the names of the company is just the first part.

Livery change is the first step to removing the companies and replacing them with private companies who won't care about Elderly Doris around the corner who now cannot get a bus or Jim who has a broken leg and has to take a taxi today or Liam, the old guy on a night shift who now has to use all his minimum wage on taxis.

A strike will not be about branding, it will be about privatisation and saving the bus service and people from being cut off.

devnull

hmmm wrote: »

I thought we were very close to a "this is the final straw" moment when DB threatened to go out on strike over BE - the public were fed up with transport strikes and were open to the government taking action. It would be a very foolish move to go on strike over something like branding, it would have absolutely no public support whatsoever.

If some change to transport is proposed here, DB/BE/SIPTU/NBRU appear to think of the following:

a) Does this mean we might lose money?
b) Does this mean we might lose control?
c) Does this involve private companies?
d) Does this mean our brand might be diluted?
e) Does this mean we will lose power?
f) Does this mean the regulator have more power?

If the same changes are proposed in other countries its:
a) Will this improve public transport for the public?
b) Will this provide any new possible opportunities?
c) Will this encourage more people to use public transport?
d) Dies this provide better information to the public?

In short, every change here is assessed based on how much benefit there is for the companies and the unions, versus the alternative in Europe which is assessed based on using it as an opportunity or how things can be used to improve the experience or attract more customers.

noelfirl

Smithers19 wrote: »

...or Liam, the old guy on a night shift who now has to use all his minimum wage on taxis.

Other than wondering if this is just blatant trolling, how exactly has the current public transport system up until now facilitated Liam or Roisin or Pablo or Jaroslaw or any of the other shift workers who have had SFA way to get home between the hours of 11:30 and 5:30-6ish?

Smithers19

There's one big difference - other companies are given more subsidy than we do, Bus Eireann only gets €33m for example.

devnull

Smithers19 wrote: »

There's one big difference - other companies are given more subsidy than we do, Bus Eireann only gets €33m for example.

Bus Eireann had over €90m of taxpayer funding last year before you even include the free travel pass. In any case subsidy is not the issue here so to even bring it up is a complete red herring in my own view, we're talking about re-thinking Dublin's bus services.

The reason we are so far behind most European capital and even non capital cities is because of the fact we have a system which does not serve the public first and foremost and the system, practices and infrastructure and provision of many things is firmly stuck in the past.

Saying it's just about funding is a red-herring because a lot of the changes don't need vast amounts of money being spent on them, they just need a change in practice and a change in focus to bring the service up to date, to make it more coherent and integrated with a better customer focus.

LeinsterDub

A billion euro on the bus service. Can't help feel it would be better spent elsewhere

donvito99

In Dublin buses used to be cream coloured, then a kind of sickly green, then a white, blue and orange mash up disaster as well as red and yellow in some cases and now the present blue and yellow.

What is clear is that livery change does not lead to privatisation. We still have the same old the turgid system.

Smithers19

Do you really think private companies are going to offer bus services after 10pm or early in the morning?

Dublin Bus do and Bus Eireann operate 24 hour routes, no private company will do that. Therefors hift workers will be paying more in taxis, and much more in bus fares where they can take the bus as privates will put the bus fare up, use smaller buses and run less often and maybe not at all on most routes on a Sunday.

antoinolachtnai

Smithers19 wrote: »

There's one big difference - other companies are given more subsidy than we do, Bus Eireann only gets €33m for example.

This is incorrect. BE's PSO services got around 44 million in 2015. It got around 62 million in 2014. Over the two years, this is 106m in subsidy on turnover of about 236 million.

That is a subsidy of about 45 percent. This is all in the annual report (http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1468318225-Annual-Report-2015.pdf)



Can you give us a list of bus companies around the world that are getting a bigger subsidy than that and some references?

noelfirl

Smithers19 wrote: »

Do you really think private companies are going to offer bus services after 10pm or early in the morning?

Dublin Bus do and Bus Eireann operate 24 hour routes, no private company will do that. Therefors hift workers will be paying more in taxis, and much more in bus fares where they can take the bus as privates will put the bus fare up, use smaller buses and run less often and maybe not at all on most routes on a Sunday.

Dublin Bus run absolutely nothing approaching a 24 hour route, doing next to nothing apart from two nights a week in one direction to help your friend Liam avoid his taxi costs. In this day and age, 11:30 is a pitiful hour for services to end at, and early morning services are not evenly apparent across the network.

As for private companies offering late night bus services, early morning services and 24 hour routes - if the operator/authority tenders to them to do that, that's exactly what they do. Vis a vis TFL.

devnull

The transport companies would quite like to hold on to their own branding for commercial reasons (ironic for a so called public company) Unfortunately having a proper integrated system is not top of their agenda because they are worried that it could lead to revenue abstraction to other operators therefore they want to be fully in control of their own destiny rather than allow someone else to have the power to do what is in the public interest but not necessarily in their own interest.

The companies see Transport for Ireland as a threat to their control over transport in this country and could lead to a situation where power is transferred from local management to a regulator who dictates what happens rather than the situation at the moment where to a degree the companies have that power in their hands due to their position.

It's essentially the unions/companies stating that we're not going anywhere and we're not going to give up control of transport in this country and we should be the ones at the forefront, not Transport for Ireland. It's why transport is so dysfunctional in this country, on the one hand setting up public operators to serve the customer first and foremost is an excellent idea to avoid vested/self interest, but the problem we have now is the companies self interest is generally coming before that of public transport in this country.

Spanish Eyes

This could get very ugly. I hope the Minister will intervene this time if it does.

Time to knock heads together and put the Bus users first, top of the queue etc. and so on.

DB is providing a service for the public, not for themselves.

devnull

Smithers19 wrote: »

Do you really think private companies are going to offer bus services after 10pm or early in the morning?

Dublin Bus do and Bus Eireann operate 24 hour routes, no private company will do that. Therefors hift workers will be paying more in taxis, and much more in bus fares where they can take the bus as privates will put the bus fare up, use smaller buses and run less often and maybe not at all on most routes on a Sunday.

Under the NTA Regime, no operator of PSO routes will have the power to set fares, bus size of bus types, timetables, bus frequency or how early or late services start or finish, so what you are saying really has no basis on reality in this situation because the operators do not have the powers to do the things that you claim.

As far as your idea that Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann operate 24 hour routes, as far as I know Bus Eireann only operate one, which they are paid to run and given vehicles to run on that route, and Dublin Bus do not operate any at all on a PSO basis, although there is talk that the NTA may contract for some of them in the future. Neither company operates a 24 hour route commercially as far as I'm aware.

The only 24 hour bus routes I'm aware of are all privately operated, by the likes of Aircoach who have operated 24 hours a day for well over a decade, Dublin Coach and other private operators. But according to you they would never do such a thing. What's more, they do it without a penny from the state even at unsocial hours.

LeinsterDub

Smithers19 wrote: »

Do you really think private companies are going to offer bus services after 10pm or early in the morning?

Dublin Bus do and Bus Eireann operate 24 hour routes, no private company will do that. Therefors hift workers will be paying more in taxis, and much more in bus fares where they can take the bus as privates will put the bus fare up, use smaller buses and run less often and maybe not at all on most routes on a Sunday.

You're posts are the embodiment of everything wrong with DB and BÉ unions. Any talk of change and it's Never! Never! Never!. And of course you're crocodile tears about being concerned for the public will be soon replaced with x% pay increase and we'll have no issue driving a different coloured bus.

Smithers19

I am concerned for the public, just look what has happened with the UK to see how things will go if we do not stand up and fight for our public bus service right now, you can either fight for your bus services or you can sit back moaning after the event, I prefer to do something about it, public bus services are far better then privately owned ones and give a higher level of service, look at all the cities around the world to see how many bus services are publicly owned, they can't all be wrong.

Larbre34

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A billion euro on the bus service. Can't help feel it would be better spent elsewhere

Totally. A billion euro sticking plaster.

Bus priority has been advancing over the last 20 years, vehicles are modern, technology has much improved. Not another penny in capital, save for natural replacement, should be spent on Dublin Bus, without first delivering the DART interconnector, Metro North and Luas B2 first, and also developing public transport options in regional cities and towns.

If we are to offer a home to high value incoming business, as well as existing Irish people, we have to think bigger than digging up finite road space again and again.

antoinolachtnai

Smithers19 wrote: »

I am concerned for the public, just look what has happened with the UK to see how things will go if we do not stand up and fight for our public bus service right now, you can either fight for your bus services or you can sit back moaning after the event, I prefer to do something about it, public bus services are far better then privately owned ones and give a higher level of service, look at all the cities around the world to see how many bus services are publicly owned, they can't all be wrong.

So why isn't our service absolutely brilliant so?

LeinsterDub

Smithers19 wrote: »

I am concerned for the public, just look what has happened with the UK to see how things will go if we do not stand up and fight for our public bus service right now, you can either fight for your bus services or you can sit back moaning after the event, I prefer to do something about it, public bus services are far better then privately owned ones and give a higher level of service, look at all the cities around the world to see how many bus services are publicly owned, they can't all be wrong.

The public bus service were have right now is pure ****e , designed around a 80 year defunct tram service running to the Pillar. The private operators are offering a quality service and value for money while the NTA is attempting to pull the state run services into the 21st century.

devnull

Smithers19 wrote: »

I am concerned for the public, just look what has happened with the UK to see how things will go if we do not stand up and fight for our public bus service right now, you can either fight for your bus services or you can sit back moaning after the event, I prefer to do something about it, public bus services are far better then privately owned ones and give a higher level of service, look at all the cities around the world to see how many bus services are publicly owned, they can't all be wrong.

There's one thing I don't understand.

You're claiming that all these cities around the world are great and examples of good public transport being run by public companies and why we should not involve private companies because it will lead to worse services.

But at the same time you are arguing against many of the things which those public transport providers do in other country, which the NTA wants to bring in?

dfx-

devnull wrote: »

The network itself is also part of the consultation and plan from the NTA, which will certainly help with running times and bus lateness, a lot of the delays are caused by LUAS Cross City, when it is completed it will allow for a re-draw of timetables and schedules and running times and I would expect to see progress then, but when the city center is a building site there is always going to be knock on effects.

I don't buy the Cross City delays excuse. The core Network Direct routes are fundamentally too long because they were established in order to cut services. The 13 produces a lower level of service than the four routes it attempted to replace and is less reliable in doing it, whether the city centre is a building site or not.

I've experienced no such problems with city centre terminus routes as the cross city behemoths.

devnull wrote: »

This isn't the network review.

It's mentioned in the document yes, but there will be a different document and consultation launched about the network itself and the changes that will be made to routes, the other proposals in the PDF are in addition to the network review, of which I would expect more details to follow in the next few months.

So really that's the document that matters and not this one. This one is just more of the same old petty politics stuff that has been discussed to an end here. There is absolutely no reason to put the sort of effort they have done into stamping a new logo and different colour onto buses.

Yellow and blue is perfectly good enough.

pjohnson

Smithers19 wrote: »

I am concerned for the public, just look what has happened with the UK to see how things will go if we do not stand up and fight for our public bus service right now, you can either fight for your bus services or you can sit back moaning after the event, I prefer to do something about it, public bus services are far better then privately owned ones and give a higher level of service, look at all the cities around the world to see how many bus services are publicly owned, they can't all be wrong.

The way you had of "doing something about it" left the public you claim to worry about without a service for 3 weeks.

LXFlyer

Larbre34 wrote: »

Totally. A billion euro sticking plaster.

Bus priority has been advancing over the last 20 years, vehicles are modern, technology has much improved. Not another penny in capital, save for natural replacement, should be spent on Dublin Bus, without first delivering the DART interconnector, Metro North and Luas B2 first, and also developing public transport options in regional cities and towns.

If we are to offer a home to high value incoming business, as well as existing Irish people, we have to think bigger than digging up finite road space again and again.

We need to do them all.

But saying that we should do nothing with the bus service would mean large swathes of the city that don't feature in those schemes receiving virtually no real improvements.

Like it or not, even with those rail improvements, buses will still be the backbone of the public transport network and not doing anything with the bus service, would be a nonsense. Delivery of those rail schemes wouldn't take place till the mid 2020s - are you seriously suggesting that the bus service shouldn't be changed at all till then? We have to be realistic here. Even if those schemes get approval, the time lag is significant. We cannot afford to do nothing in the interim.

The bus network needs a redesign, with more orbital services, the operating hours and frequency need reviewing, and the QBCs need further upgrading where possible to improve the average bus speed.

MrMorooka

Smithers19 wrote: »

Liam, the old guy on a night shift who now has to use all his minimum wage on taxis.

But I already know a 'Liam' who works in a bar and has to spend stupid amounts of money on taxis after work because Dublin Bus do not provide a service that late!

Spanish Eyes

Why not just put the yellow and blue on the private buses! Add the nta LOGO to the DB. There, I've saved us all a fortune.

antoinolachtnai

It is really very late but there are good things in these proposals. Making all services cashless and queue-free will give immediate benefits for the entire traffic system, not just for buses.