BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Dardania

vectorvictor wrote: »

Thanks for posting this. There is going to need to be some serious community centric education. The planners have a tough task translating the current setup.

I would like to think the motivation of following this plan will be achieved but right now it looks like a complicated mess that will drive people who have an option away from public transport.

In my view people will take their decades of Dublin bus usage and experience of reliability (albeit largely down to the road infrastructure rather than the operator) and be strongly discouraged by the notion of a two sector bus trip. It's just not going to work in practice.

The romantic notion of gliding off one bus and onto another to achieve a shorter journey time than present is naive at best. It's just not possible for a city like Dublin regardless of the proposed infrastructure changes.

I do agree the interchange is a tough sell. My concern is the anxiety as to whether the second bus will arrive at all.

What do you think would need to be done for interchanging to work in Dublin? Real time info screens at each stop? Maybe updates on network reliability?

Stephen15

vectorvictor wrote: »

The romantic notion of gliding off one bus and onto another to achieve a shorter journey time than present is naive at best. It's just not possible for a city like Dublin regardless of the proposed infrastructure changes.

Agreed but I do think it's inefficient to have many low frequency routes all serving the city centre creating bus gridlock as is the present day scenario. There will be waiting but it's not as if people don't wait for buses atm. The current system has the romantic notion of people in low populated, far out, hard to reach locations getting a bus directly to the city centre which is long and infrequent.

vectorvictor

Dardania wrote: »

I do agree the interchange is a tough sell. My concern is the anxiety as to whether the second bus will arrive at all.

What do you think would need to be done for interchanging to work in Dublin? Real time info screens at each stop? Maybe updates on network reliability?

Linking the departures of Bus 2 to the actual arrival of Bus 1 rather than by timetable. I.e. Luas - They interchange at weekend. If you get on Tram A you can be virtually certain the connector Tram B will be waiting when you get to interchange and depart within 2-3 minutes.

I just don't see a bus operator being able to replicate that both in terms of doing it physically and in terms of consumer confidence in their ability to do it consistently

Charles Babbage

Dardania wrote: »

I do agree the interchange is a tough sell. My concern is the anxiety as to whether the second bus will arrive at all.

What do you think would need to be done for interchanging to work in Dublin? Real time info screens at each stop? Maybe updates on network reliability?

At present if you live in the suburbs you have reasonable predictibility about the arrival time of a bus and every chance of getting a seat on it
This proposal risks two delays, waiting in the rain, and not getting a seat on the second bus.

Stephen15

Charles Babbage wrote: »

At present if you live in the suburbs you have reasonable predictibility about the arrival time of a bus and every chance of getting a seat on it
This proposal risks two delays, waiting in the rain, and not getting a seat on the second bus.

Most suburbs still have direct service to the city centre. Most people have to stand at times at present it's a fact of all urban transport systems bus, rail or tram in all major cities that not everyone is gonna get a seat at all times and not everyone gets a seat atm either on our present bus system at peak times.

At the moment not every bus shows up due to 'operational reasons' according to DB I suggest you look at DBs Twitter feed to look at the issues with the present bus system.

Dyr

vectorvictor wrote: »

In my view people will take their decades of Dublin bus usage and experience of reliability (albeit largely down to the road infrastructure rather than the operator) and be strongly discouraged by the notion of a two sector bus trip. It's just not going to work in practice.

The romantic notion of gliding off one bus and onto another to achieve a shorter journey time than present is naive at best. It's just not possible for a city like Dublin regardless of the proposed infrastructure changes.

The reality is that the Jarret Walker boys applied their standard approach and had no idea that there was inbuilt resistance in Dublin to connection journeys, they also casually dismissed those who pointed it out to them. Not clever and the NTA should have put them wide to the flaw. It's a bit of Brown M&M moment.

The route replacement document is probably the smartest thing the NTA have done in this whole project and they should have done it from the start. It will have certain communities up in arms IMO but they should have been straight up and dealt with that from the get go instead of taking the Jesuitical approach

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

The reality is that the Jarret Walker boys applied their standard approach and had no idea that there was inbuilt resistance in Dublin to connection journeys, they also casually dismissed those who pointed it out to them. Not clever and the NTA should have put them wide to the flaw. It's a bit of Brown M&M moment.

The route replacement document is probably the smartest thing the NTA have done in this whole project and they should have done it from the start. It will have certain communities up in arms IMO but they should have been straight up and dealt with that from the get go instead of taking the Jesuitical approach

I reckon they got their timings a little off. I reckon they were operating on a tight deadline in order to announce the changes to the network. It's costing the NTA big bucks flying Jarrett and members of his firm in and out of the country on top of the cost of accommodation and meals etc. for the firm.

Credit where credit is due as it was only after the NBRU made their table that the NTA copped the idea and did so also. However I do think they should have put sliders on their website which would allow people click on a route rather than having to scroll through a PDF just to find out about the changes which are effecting them.

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

At the moment not every bus shows up due to 'operational reasons' according to DB I suggest you look at DBs Twitter feed to look at the issues with the present bus system.

What changes in this plan do you think will reduce this problem of "operational reasons" causing buses not to run or routes to be curtailed meaning part of the route is skipped? Genuine question.

Anywhere between 5-10 buses per week that I wait for do not arrive due to operational reasons. It's a massive issue on particular routes. No driver available is the most common operational reason according to drivers I have asked. Then buses being so drastically delayed on the North quays inbound that the decision is made to cut the end/start of the route without notification.

What will address these problems in the new plan? Or is it likely to just be more of the same. If so then increased frequency on the timetable is not likely to actually happen in reality. The current issues are most accute during peak periods that promise better frequency but actually deliver worse than normal off-peak.

r93kaey5p2izun

Also regarding the new route comparison table - I think it's a good move and I hope it counteracts some of the misinformation and plain lies that have been told about certain routes. At the same time I feel they have deliberately left out certain information that won't go down well and that's a bit rich given the outcry about the unbalanced picture presented by NBRU.

Stephen15

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

What changes in this plan do you think will reduce this problem of "operational reasons" causing buses not to run or routes to be curtailed meaning part of the route is skipped? Genuine question.

Anywhere between 5-10 buses per week that I wait for do not arrive due to operational reasons. It's a massive issue on particular routes. No driver available is the most common operational reason according to drivers I have asked. Then buses being so drastically delayed on the North quays inbound that the decision is made to cut the end/start of the route without notification.

What will address these problems in the new plan? Or is it likely to just be more of the same. If so then increased frequency on the timetable is not likely to actually happen in reality. The current issues are most accute during peak periods that promise better frequency but actually deliver worse than normal off-peak.

Additional buses, additional drivers and more bus priority measures meaning buses can get to their terminuses quicker, have quicker turn around times and dead running is reduced. There should be an improvement in service when Go-Ahead get up and running as all the Go-Ahead buses are operating in addition to DB which will free up a large amount of buses in the DB fleet. Remember bus connects is about a whole lot more than just the route network plenty of more investment.

Victor

markpb wrote: »

One of JWs blog posts says that he prefers to do transformations like this in a single big bang. If we did that in Dublin, I wonder how RPTI would manage without any historical data.

RTPI doesn't need historical data. If accurate working timetables are prepared, they can act as the historical data until such time as historical data is available.

I understand the historical data is limited to the last 100 trips anyway. I presume that is 100 departures per route, not 100 days departures for a specific departure.

r93kaey5p2izun

Stephen15 wrote: »

Additional buses, additional drivers and more bus priority measures meaning buses can get to their terminuses quicker, have quicker turn around times and dead running is reduced. There should be an improvement in service when Go-Ahead get up and running as all the Go-Ahead buses are operating in addition to DB which will free up a large amount of buses in the DB fleet. Remember bus connects is about a whole lot more than just the route network plenty of more investment.

The only real pinch point on my route (and no change on future route) is Johns Road West and the North Quays. Will there be bus priority measures here? The terminus has moved from Merrion Square to Sandymount - surely just even more potential for delays? (I feel like we've gone more Network Direct than we ever were under ND itself with this!) The route has also been extended at the other end so overall a huge increase in route length - Adamstown to Sandymount instead of just Newcastle Road to Merrion Square. That concerns me.

Will there be a real increase in number of drivers relative to number of scheduled departures or will it be much the same ratio as now with some routes still relying heavily on overtime - which I have been told is the reason my route has such frequent "operational issues"?

Stephen15

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

The only real pinch point on my route (and no change on future route) is Johns Road West and the North Quays. Will there be bus priority measures here? The terminus has moved from Merrion Square to Sandymount - surely just even more potential for delays? (I feel like we've gone more Network Direct than we ever were under ND itself with this!) The route has also been extended at the other end so overall a huge increase in route length - Adamstown to Sandymount instead of just Newcastle Road to Merrion Square. That concerns me.

There has been no official confirmation from the NTA on what bus priority measures will be put in place but I assume there will be bus priority measures on the Quays as they are currently a pinch point at the moment. Also there will be less buses on the Quays and they should be better spaced apart meaning they will be less likely to get stuck in traffic and there will be no right turn from the Quays onto O'Connell Bridge/D'Olier Street another pinch point meaning buses will use the Rosie Hackett Bridge and Hawkins Street instead.

Will there be a real increase in number of drivers relative to number of scheduled departures or will it be much the same ratio as now with some routes still relying heavily on overtime - which I have been told is the reason my route has such frequent "operational issues"?

I don't know but I would imagine there would have to be a large number of new drivers recruited. Go-Ahead will free up 125 buses and will also free up many drivers. I suspect there will have to be a big recruitment drive which will bring in a large number of spare drivers.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

I understand the historical data is limited to the last 100 trips anyway. I presume that is 100 departures per route, not 100 days departures for a specific departure.

That's no good though. What relevance does a 5pm rush-hour departure have on timings at 11pm at night for example? The timings will be drastically different.

Victor

dfx- wrote: »

I've yet to see anyone or meet anyone or ever hear anyone on a 79 or waiting for one of this 'rest of the population' complaining about the loop the 79 does in Spiddal Park slowing down the 79. The 79/A is fine. It's yet another route that does not need fixing.

It does need fixing, in particular the extension to Nangor Road is useful.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That's no good though. What relevance does a 5pm rush-hour departure have on timings at 11pm at night for example? The timings will be drastically different.

Possibly. But if there is a problem, e.g. roadworks, the effect would be similar.

Victor

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Since Kilcock traditionally had a DB service and lost it just as it grew massively as a commuter town I think it's to be expected that it will come up for locals. The plan is for the DB network but it includes a proposal to improve fares for transfer to other operators such as Dart and Luas. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss BE inclusion in the fare transfer proposal. But personally I think it's crazy that the W8 won't connect to Kilcock.

Kilcock probably needs more trains / coaches, not buses.

SG317 wrote: »

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Shane Ross's constiuncy of Stepaside (Belarmine) gets two bus routes one that goes directly into town and x3 frequency increase? While other areas of similar population in the outskirts only get one route, that doesn't always go into town either. Not to mention Belarmine is in close proximity to the Luas. Certainly they need a frequeny increase but what's proposed seems a bit too generous compared to other areas.

Belarmine actually has reasonable density: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2590473,-6.2212774,3a,75y,288.4h,93.18t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1shBX7Swr5pCJtrkrlIW7WJA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DhBX7Swr5pCJtrkrlIW7WJA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D346.76797%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100 but because it's a cul de sac, access to Luas is poor. https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.2572111,-6.217645/53.2658113,-6.2106451/@53.2622177,-6.2260196,1890m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2

It is those 3 buses an hour that gives it access to Luas at Ballaly - 4km away.

KD345 wrote: »

You missed Chapelizod in your summary. Chapelizod will go from having 140 buses to the city centre on Saturday to just 32. On Sunday, there will be a reduction from 65 buses per day to 29. This is far from an equal frequency.

Perhaps the NTA believe this is a sufficient level of service, but for a Chapelizod resident it is a big drop in frequency. I would prefer if this report referenced and explained the reduction in buses through many areas.

Chapelizod has the current level of service at the expense of the people of Lucan, Leixlip, etc. who have to spend extra time going through there.

Bambi wrote: »

Stephen15 wrote: »

Remember bus connects is about much more than just the routes. The big money will be spent on infrastructure such as bus priority measures, improved roads, footpaths and bus stops

*Reducing footpaths

Enuring that footpaths have an appropriate width.

The current bus priority measures are not in any enforced, why would we give them more if they cant manage what they have?

Traffic enforcement isn't the job of the bus service. More bus priority measure mean, you know, more bus priority.

KD345 wrote: »

Devnull, the 15 had its frequency increased because it was leaving passengers behind at stops. Every bus is full before Firhouse Road. If you cut it’s current peak frequency in half as this report suggests it will be a disaster.

Look at the map. The 49 is being replaced by the S6 and S7 in Firhouse. The plan is that passengers change from the S6/S7 to board the A1 on Firhouse Road to continue their journey to the city. A 10 minute frequency on this A1 will simply not work.

Passengers on S6 and S7 heading for the city centre would probably be better off change to the A3 or A4 (which will have just left the terminus).

CatInABox wrote: »

I've used the Dublin Bus time table as inspiration for my lottery numbers, but not much else. I'd go so far as to class them as fictional.

The various apps are the only way I use the buses now:

Open app, see bus is 15 minutes away, get to the bus stop five minutes before it's meant to be there, because even the app isn't super accurate.

It's real time information. Between the time you check the app and get to the bus stop, the bus may have been delayed or avoided a delay it is usually subjected to.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Trade unions have every right to involved. Especially with bus connects. Excluding them is a mistake. IMO Siptu probably can't be bothered as there is no money in for them.

Surely there is the exact same amount of money in it for them as any other union?

Or they were paid to keep out

Who would pay them? How would this go through the accounts? How much? How would their members feel about this?

cgcsb

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

What changes in this plan do you think will reduce this problem of "operational reasons" causing buses not to run or routes to be curtailed meaning part of the route is skipped? Genuine question.

Anywhere between 5-10 buses per week that I wait for do not arrive due to operational reasons. It's a massive issue on particular routes. No driver available is the most common operational reason according to drivers I have asked. Then buses being so drastically delayed on the North quays inbound that the decision is made to cut the end/start of the route without notification.

What will address these problems in the new plan? Or is it likely to just be more of the same. If so then increased frequency on the timetable is not likely to actually happen in reality. The current issues are most accute during peak periods that promise better frequency but actually deliver worse than normal off-peak.

There won't be any cars in the North quays, and therefore no delay

Victor

Stephen15 wrote: »

There are already bus stops on the N4 which is 80km

Most of the stops are on 50 or 60 km/h sections, only 5-6 on 80 km/h sections.

and bus stops on the 80km section of the N11 South of Foxrock Church

The speed limit in the bus lanes is 65 km/h.

What's wrong Chapelizod Hill Road or Kylemore Hill?

They're really steep.

Goldengirl wrote: »

I along with many other tech savvy younger people had great difficulty reading the pdf maps,even though I had zoomed up each one, and I don't wear glasses even.

Could I ask what you are using to read them? Phone? Laptop? Browser? PDF reader?

It needs to be done in leaflets addressing each area individually, so that people can see straight away how it affects them.

They've repackaged the information: https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-local-area-brochures/

Bray Head wrote: »

One of the consequences of Bus Connects is that it will make the financial performance of routes much more distinct. Spine routes are likely to be profitbale, and orbital and other routes unprofitable. 

The definition of 'profitable' is the core issue here. Does it mean covering day to day costs? Renewal costs? Capital costs? Does it take into account savings to users?

gmisk

Stephen15 wrote: »

How many minutes would it on a wet Tuesday morning in November compared to a BH Monday in August?

I dont travel into town bar the weekend or evening.
But if I had to guess it wouldnt be much more maybe 20/25 minutes max

gmisk

devnull wrote: »

A route by route breakdown has now been released:
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1301/route-by-route-comparison-table.pdf

Interesting...so it looks like the 79/79a replacement G1 Spine, will go directly to the city centre...so no changing.
If this is true it wont be too bad....but I still think snaking up through kilmainham to town via Thomas Street will be a nightmare.

cgcsb

gmisk wrote: »

Interesting...so it looks like the 79/79a replacement G1 Spine, will go directly to the city centre...so no changing.
If this is true it wont be too bad....but I still think snaking up through kilmainham to town via Thomas Street will be a nightmare.

That's guaranteed at least until the roads are widened. I think the spines in the south west of the City should be prioritized for road widening. The rest of the City already has some decent stretches of bus lane

r93kaey5p2izun

cgcsb wrote: »

There won't be any cars in the North quays, and therefore no delay

No cars from Heuston to O'Connell Bridge? Really?

Peregrine

Second one today

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1027141339887091712?s=20

MJohnston

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

No cars from Heuston to O'Connell Bridge? Really?

It was proposed before by DCC who flubbed it by kowtowing to short-sighted business groups and the likes of the AA. We would have had bus-only sections of the Quays on Bachelor's Walk and Eden Quay, meaning most private cars would have diverted from the quays completely to the NCR/SCR loop, or converted to use of a different mode (you're probably not going to use the rest of the quays when the most vital segment of it for you is now impassible).


NTA could still make this happen.

howiya

Peregrine wrote: »

Second one today

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1027141339887091712?s=20

Will pop down to NSC tomorrow. Interestingly PBP are having a meeting tonight in Parnells GAA Club. "Defend Public Transport" :rolleyes:

NBRU also due to attend.

cgcsb

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

No cars from Heuston to O'Connell Bridge? Really?

Between Jervis and O'Connell Street and between Blackhall Place and Church St

sharper

MJohnston wrote: »

NTA could still make this happen.

But will they? When LUAS cross city was approaching completion I couldn't imagine that we would allow chaos to reign rather than take what was clearly necessary steps and yet they did.

I'm very interested to hear more on their specific infrastructure plans and timelines. This proposal can't work without them.

cgcsb

sharper wrote: »

But will they? When LUAS cross city was approaching completion I couldn't imagine that we would allow chaos to reign rather than take what was clearly necessary steps and yet they did.

I'm very interested to hear more on their specific infrastructure plans and timelines. This proposal can't work without them.

DCC was entrusted with the traffic management plan and they done NOTHING.
NTA will be looking after bus connects.
CG plaza decision is due October 3rd. With a bit of luck that means the Jervis-O'Connell section will be done by year end.

Amirani

Positive tweet about Walker's activity here from Frank McDonald, good to get some relatively high profile names being supportive on social media.

https://twitter.com/frankmcdonald60/status/1027216681721110528

Kh1993

Glad they've noticed and put in writing about how 'it takes too long to loop through Beaumont Hospital'. One thing I hope the plan does improve is and end to serving the unsuitable roads, loops and detours current buses take.

It also Rolestown will be served by Ashbourne to Swords bus that doesn't fall under their remit. Who'd remit is it? Local Link? BE?