BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

howiya

Just on some of the stuff that could be done now before the big bang. Bus lane on N1 should be made 24/7 immediately.

Walked home from Croke Park last night and it was like a car park. Both Monaghan & Tyrone fans heading home that way. I'd say there was a huge effect on DB's operations as a result.

devnull

This is a forum, which is (purportedly) frequented by grown adults. Grown adults are capable of reasoned discussion without behaving like primary school children in a playground and low level trolling.

Please, focus on the topic at hand and contribute constructively going forward. We've tried to be more hands off on moderation recently but if that doesn't work we may have to review that.

AlekSmart

sharper wrote: »

He's engaged people individually and route by route on twitter. How much better than that can someone listen?

Over it's history the CIE group has been one of the most studied & reported upon entities on the Planet.

With all of these reports,few were ever given an opportunity to engage with or question the compilers,usually faceless "Consultancy Giants" who rarely allowed an personalization to take root.

Even within the CIE group,the studies and recommendations on internal planning and development have rarely been openly debated.

Yet when we have an individual,who takes full responsibility for his work,and engages on several levels,not only with the Administrative Elite who commissioned his work,but also with the Joe Soaps of the City,he's given the bums rush and slated as being a mere "IT Geek".

We can't have it both ways.

The last major internal Dublin Bus reentrenchment was the Sectoral Reports from the Bob Montgomery era,which gave us the City IMP,City SWIFT and City SPEED brandings,each successful in their own right,but which fell foul of internal politics,after the rather sudden departure of Mr Montgomery.

I would refrain from calling Network Direct,a Plan,as such,due to the reality that it was a survival strategy,which was ultimately successful,but at a cost of leaving Dublin with a less functional network than what preceeded it.

One of the mistakes which the NTA have made,is in using the post Network Direct network as the baseline on which to superimpose Busconnects.
Using the pre-existing Dublin Bus network would perhaps have given J.Walker somewhat more to work with.

It has to be continually restated however,that BusConnects is a study of Dublins Bus Network rather than a study of Dublin Buses Network......as both can diverge quite substantially at times.

sharper

dfx- wrote: »

there would be buses strewn across the place all over at that sort of high frequency if it was implemented tomorrow.

Restrictions on street parking, bus priority and a flat fare is a minimum to have in place before you introduce any of this.

The state of Dublin's traffic infrastructure is something we can't really expect Jarret Walker so have much knowledge of. I would imagine they're taken as given numbers given to them by the NTA and relying on to plan the order of implementation and infrastructure.

Aside from anything else I would worry greatly that the infrastructure would simply never happen. It'll be tied up by special interests and court cases.

Overall I think Bus Connects is a good plan and a good way to scale the bus system but I'm very curious about whether anyone understands either the plan or the current infrastructure well enough to predict what it looks like at commuter peak without improvements.

AlekSmart

howiya wrote: »

Just on some of the stuff that could be done now before the big bang. Bus lane on N1 should be made 24/7 immediately.

Walked home from Croke Park last night and it was like a car park. Both Monaghan & Tyrone fans heading home that way. I'd say there was a huge effect on DB's operations as a result.

The glossy brochure produced by the GAA for the launch of the revamped Croke Park some years back made mention of the Traffic Management Plan devised by the GAA,DCC and the Gardai.

Over the intervening period this has largely played out as several individual Gardai mooching aroung the Clonliffe Road/Drumcondra Road junction,each member having a totally seperate notion of what was agreed at the briefings.

Occasionally,a Garda Traffic Corps member would happen along,whereupon significant differences of opinion could be very publicly displayed.

They authorities cannot even organize the switching off of the Traffic Signals at this location,which results in mass confusion,as non-Croke Park destined people,attempt to figure out what they are supposed to do when presented with conflicting instructions by Gardai AND Traffic Signals.

For the most part,the Gardai simply want to chat or text without having to engage with motorists or assist,in any way,the Public Transport so bravely referred to in the brochure.

Again,in the true spirit of modern Ireland...nobody has overall charge of the Traffic Management Plan,such as it is,there is No single point or person of reference to deal with the usual chaos,which gets more dangerous as each event occurs.

I'd have a preference for giving Jarrett Walker another contract,this time,to sort out the amaturish clowning around that accompanies each and every "Big Match in Croker" day...but making sure his bill was sent direct to "Headquarters".

MJohnston

I would really have to hope that automated bus lane enforcement will be a large part of the infrastructure plan, whenever we see it. GDS obviously aren't interested in resourcing traffic enforcement, so whatever can be automated should be.

AlanG

TheChrisD wrote: »

However, I'm also seeing the B-spine to town not take the fancy bus lane out of the centre by the Crowne Plaza and the roundabout on-ramp nearby; rather it shows going via the Liberty building, across the Snugborough bridge and using the Waterville on-ramp? What's the point of that, that's going to add so much more time being stuck in that traffic versus getting on the N3 quicker

There are plans in place to double the bridge at snugborough road and have a bus lane across it but it will definitely need some serious works around the center to bring buses around that route efficiently. Surely it would be better to build a safe wheelchair accessible stop on the N3 near the new bridge to serve people in waterville, the village and corduff.

lawred2

I see the populist rabble rousing politicians are at their usual rabble rousing plan dismantling best already

Ciaran_B

MJohnston wrote: »

I would really have to hope that automated bus lane enforcement will be a large part of the infrastructure plan, whenever we see it. GDS obviously aren't interested in resourcing traffic enforcement, so whatever can be automated should be.

The only red light camera in the country has been turned off for a year now despite being a huge success. And it's clear that the transport minister has no intention of turning it back on. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on automation.

Qrt

Ciaran_B wrote: »

The only red light camera in the country has been turned off for a year now despite being a huge success. And it's clear that the transport minister has no intention of turning it back on. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on automation.

Blackhall Place??

Qrt

lawred2 wrote: »

I see the populist rabble rousing politicians are at their usual rabble rousing plan dismantling best already

Can you be more specific?

cgcsb

Ciaran_B wrote: »

The only red light camera in the country has been turned off for a year now despite being a huge success. And it's clear that the transport minister has no intention of turning it back on. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on automation.

turned off?

fly_agaric

sharper wrote: »

Overall I think Bus Connects is a good plan and a good way to scale the bus system but I'm very curious about whether anyone understands either the plan or the current infrastructure well enough to predict what it looks like at commuter peak without improvements.

I haven't read all the documents in detail, but given that the main concept is going for a "network" structure with people needing to change their bus more, it is not going to work properly (imo) if journey time & intervals on the frequent spines or radials is a total lottery from minute to minute because of shoddy bus lane design, heavy traffic (other road users taking too much space from the busses), poor traffic enforcement from guards etc.
If the other (...more tricky??) elements of the busconnects project go in (even if they are not all there for every single route from the start) it seems like a good plan.

Zebra3

lawred2 wrote: »

I see the populist rabble rousing politicians are at their usual rabble rousing plan dismantling best already

Noel Rock of the right wing Fine Gael?

Ciaran_B

Qrt wrote: »

Blackhall Place??

cgcsb wrote: »

turned off?

Sorry, not turned off. But it's not being used for enforcement so it may as well be.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/camera-that-caught-1-300-drivers-running-red-lights-now-lying-idle-g696v3fh6

MJohnston

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Sorry, not turned off. But it's not being used for enforcement so it may as well be.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/camera-that-caught-1-300-drivers-running-red-lights-now-lying-idle-g696v3fh6

Isn't there another red light camera at the N4/SCR junction?

Victor

MJohnston wrote: »

Isn't there another red light camera at the N4/SCR junction?

That one and the one on the Stillorgan Road haven't been used for enforcement.

BonnieSituation

Victor wrote: »

That one and the one on the Stillorgan Road haven't been used for enforcement.

Years of slowing down at the N4/SCR for nothing!!!!

Though to be said I nearly got milled out of it by someone going N4(E) as I was proceeding through a green light at the slip to loop back to go N4(W) last week.

Muahahaha

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

What changes in this plan do you think will reduce this problem of "operational reasons" causing buses not to run or routes to be curtailed meaning part of the route is skipped? Genuine question.

Anywhere between 5-10 buses per week that I wait for do not arrive due to operational reasons. It's a massive issue on particular routes. No driver available is the most common operational reason according to drivers I have asked. Then buses being so drastically delayed on the North quays inbound that the decision is made to cut the end/start of the route without notification.

If the problem of no show buses isnt solved by the NTA then the plan will fall apart. Theres no point selling people a frequency of 5-7 minutes along these spines if that is only an aspirational plan not backed up by buses that actually run. Especially if they want people to accept connecting buses, if people get off one bus and their connecting bus never shows up then they are on the roadside waiting another 7 minutes for the next one with the fear that it wont show up either. IMO the whole Bus Connects plan will fail if no show buses are not addressed.

sharper wrote: »

I don't see how busconnects can possibly be implemented prior to infrastructure. The interconnects need to be in place and the vast majority of public opinion will be generated from peak travel times.

I'm pretty sure almost everyone's travel time is going to increase (which of course will be bad) and some will go from direct connection to waiting at unsuitable locations as well.

I would have the same concerns. Without proper infrastructure in place I think many journeys will increase. The way I see this BusConnects plan playing out is-
1. Following consultation eventual but not full public acceptance of the network changes. Unions and local politicians fighting it tooth and nail all the way
2. Implementation of new network goes ahead without any major infrastructural changes that will negate the extra time spent transferring buses
3. Large scale complaints from the public who bought into the plan but now see journey times increase.
4. Chorus of "We told you so" from local politicians and unions and pressure put on to revert to the old system. Prime Time specials, negative coverage on radio talk shows and in the print media follows. Narrative that the plan has not worked becomes accepted amongst the general bus using public
5. Calls to go back to the old network get louder and louder. NTA pushes on with CPOs of peoples gardens but this gets bogged down in years of legal challenge.
6. Eventually the NTA coming under pressure from the Government of the day relents on Bus Connects and we go back to the old system.

Right now thats how I genuinely see it playing out. This plan needs public buy in and already that has proved challenging. It will succeed or fail on buy in by the bus using public and if large scale network changes are implemented without decent infrastructure to back it up then I reckon the public backlash will be strong and unrelenting until the entire plan is binned.

Hope to be proven wrong of course but not optimistic going by whats on the table thus far.

Uriel.

Muahahaha wrote: »

If the problem of no show buses isnt solved by the NTA then the plan will fall apart. Theres no point selling people a frequency of 5-7 minutes along these spines if that is only an aspirational plan not backed up by buses that actually run. Especially if they want people to accept connecting buses, if people get off one bus and their connecting bus never shows up then they are on the roadside waiting another 7 minutes for the next one with the fear that it wont show up either. IMO the whole Bus Connects plan will fail if no show buses are not addressed.

precisely, it is an ongoing issue and one I continually raise with DB who don't seem to care. Literally, every time there is a no show I fill out a customer complaints form. I have never done that sort of thing before, but the last 6 months it just really gets to me more and more. I think I have just shy of 65 complaints now. I'd say nearly 50% of them relate to a particular timed bus. I have asked DB to just take it off their timetable given the frequency of no show but they have refused.

After 14 years as an annual DB ticket holder I will be switching to a private operator from 2019. Lucky that I can.

sharper

Uriel. wrote: »

precisely, it is an ongoing issue and one I continually raise with DB who don't seem to care. Literally, every time there is a no show I fill out a customer complaints form. I have never done that sort of thing before, but the last 6 months it just really gets to me more and more. I think I have just shy of 65 complaints now. I'd say nearly 50% of them relate to a particular timed bus. I have asked DB to just take it off their timetable given the frequency of no show but they have refused.

Are you filling out the Dublin Bus complaint form or the NTA one? Dublin Bus will always direct you to their own complaints system for obvious reasons but they know they're not running services already.

RobbingBandit

Is this proposal an amalgamation of Go Ahead and Dublin Bus or other CIE bus services and any other potential providers that purchase routes put out to tender or is it just a service provided by Dublin Bus/CIE

Victor

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Is this proposal an amalgamation of Go Ahead and Dublin Bus or other CIE bus services and any other potential providers that purchase routes put out to tender or is it just a service provided by Dublin Bus/CIE

It primarily concerns operations by Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead. Interchange with LocalLink, Bus Éireann, Irish Rail and other operators will need to be considered.

Sierra Oscar

Fianna Fáil seem to be kicking up a stink about these changes in North Dublin in particular.

I hope people supportive of Bus Connects are making submissions because it seems Fianna Fáil are really stirring the pot and getting people to make negative submissions.

https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1029288467728150529

https://twitter.com/DarraghOBrienTD/status/1029289344832602113

salmocab

I can honestly see this getting killed dead at some stage. Opposition politicians are going to destroy this especially with an election looming.

Boulevardier

Are there plans to significantly increase the bus subvention along with implementing BusConnects? If not then be afraid, be very afraid. We are looking disaster in the face.

lawred2

Zebra3 wrote: »

Noel Rock of the right wing Fine Gael?

well probably but I was more referring to the two O Briens in my constituency Fingal.

Barely had the plan been published there were leaflets with incorrect information dropped in our letterboxes claiming that all our buses were to be feeders to Clarehall which was self evidently not true.

Fairly sure that they've had 'information evenings' :rolleyes:

lawred2

I see Sierra Oscar has done an even better job than me..

Stephen15

If anything Kinsealy is getting an increase in service not a huge one but still an increase. It's maintains a half hourly connection to Malahide and the city centre with the D1 and gets an increase in service to Swords through the 280 every 40 mins compared to the hourly 43 and also gets a new link to Clongriffin with the 280.

Victor

Stephen15 wrote: »

If anything Kinsealy is getting an increase in service not a huge one but still an increase. It's maintains a half hourly connection to Malahide and the city centre with the D1 and gets an increase in service to Swords through the 280 every 40 mins compared to the hourly 43 and also gets a new link to Clongriffin with the 280.

I think amending routes 370, 375, 382, 384 might solve a lot of the issue.