BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

AlekSmart

lawred2 wrote: »

well probably but I was more referring to the two O Briens in my constituency Fingal.

Barely had the plan been published there were leaflets with incorrect information dropped in our letterboxes claiming that all our buses were to be feeders to Clarehall which was self evidently not true.

Fairly sure that they've had 'information evenings' :rolleyes:

Information is power,as somebody famous once said

If anything is emerging from the current Busconnects phase,it is the reality of the NTA being seriously bereft of Public Transport focused talent.

What on earth were the NTA thinking when they allowed this crucial piece of Transport Infrastructural planning to be hi-jacked by the Opposition.

As it now stands,few people actually recognise the NTA as a legitimate body in Public Transport terms,but instead the NBRU have raced ahead thanks to some very well paced interventions by Dermot O Leary,who has,I feel,single handedly sunk Busconnects as a Jarrett Walker Plan.

The outcome now will be a death by a thousand cuts.

dublinman1990

I have seen a side advert on the 4 at Blackrock today for BusConnects which is probably about the public consultation survey on their website. The NTA are ramping up their advertising campaign in the weeks ahead before the consultation is finished in late September.

BonnieSituation

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I have seen a side advert on the 4 at Blackrock today for BusConnects which is probably about the public consultation survey on their website. The NTA are ramping up their advertising campaign in the weeks ahead before the consultation is finished in late September.

Ads on a good few bus shelters about the place now.

Chris_5339762

Checked my area. Basically no changes apart from losing the 16 to the airport. According to their map, I can get about 3km withing 30 minutes, to Harolds Cross in 45 and a full bloody hour to get into town, with some of the main routes going down the worst of roads. They'd better pull some major infrastructure out of the pipe, because otherwise this just won't work.

Ballyboden if you're wondering. I'll be the one in the car.

dfx-

sharper wrote: »

The state of Dublin's traffic infrastructure is something we can't really expect Jarret Walker so have much knowledge of. I would imagine they're taken as given numbers given to them by the NTA and relying on to plan the order of implementation and infrastructure.

Aside from anything else I would worry greatly that the infrastructure would simply never happen. It'll be tied up by special interests and court cases.

Overall I think Bus Connects is a good plan and a good way to scale the bus system but I'm very curious about whether anyone understands either the plan or the current infrastructure well enough to predict what it looks like at commuter peak without improvements.

Why shouldn't we expect Walker to know this information? He should know every square inch of every existing route in the city, not just as data. It's scary if they are just taking data from NTA and relying on the NTA to implement it, an organisation known for passing the buck.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Checked my area. Basically no changes apart from losing the 16 to the airport. According to their map, I can get about 3km withing 30 minutes, to Harolds Cross in 45 and a full bloody hour to get into town, with some of the main routes going down the worst of roads. They'd better pull some major infrastructure out of the pipe, because otherwise this just won't work.

Ballyboden if you're wondering. I'll be the one in the car.

Haven't you heard, this is about getting people out of their cars on all these supposed connecting journeys that are begging to be exploited. It's not about us current travellers.:)

CatInABox

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Checked my area. Basically no changes apart from losing the 16 to the airport. According to their map, I can get about 3km withing 30 minutes, to Harolds Cross in 45 and a full bloody hour to get into town, with some of the main routes going down the worst of roads. They'd better pull some major infrastructure out of the pipe, because otherwise this just won't work.

Ballyboden if you're wondering. I'll be the one in the car.

The maps include waiting time at the bus stops as well, half the frequency. I.e. If the bus comes every fifteen minutes, the map will include a seven and a half minute wait, etc.

CatInABox

dfx- wrote: »

Why shouldn't we expect Walker to know this information? He should know every square inch of every existing route in the city, not just as data. It's scary if they are just taking data from NTA and relying on the NTA to implement it, an organisation known for passing the buck.

They're not. Walker was over here multiple times over the last few years, where if he wasn't in meetings, he was getting the bus. He was given instructions on where to assume infrastructure changes by the NTA.

Spanish Eyes

I wish Jarret W well.

But I have no doubt that he understands that standards of contracts here are not the same as in his home country. He will get it soon when he realises that local parish pump stuff overrides his vision.

So there we are and always were really.

mrsdewinter

Maybe this has been asked before, or maybe this isn't the correct forum, but looking at the Bus Connects site, 2 routes will be run over Hamilton Bridge at Cabra. Hamilton Bridge is a very old humpback bridge that currently takes only a single lane of car traffic. How does this make sense?

jd

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Maybe this has been asked before, or maybe this isn't the correct forum, but looking at the Bus Connects site, 2 routes will be run over Hamilton Bridge at Cabra. Hamilton Bridge is a very old humpback bridge that currently takes only a single lane of car traffic. How does this make sense?

I saw somewhere on twitter that they were to assume that this would be sorted out..

MJohnston

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Maybe this has been asked before, or maybe this isn't the correct forum, but looking at the Bus Connects site, 2 routes will be run over Hamilton Bridge at Cabra. Hamilton Bridge is a very old humpback bridge that currently takes only a single lane of car traffic. How does this make sense?

You mean the titular Broom Bridge, right? I'm presuming it's a protected bridge given the history of it, but there are a couple of options - a new bridge built directly parallel (there's room), or (far more likely) just signal control it like East Road.



I presume the actual hump could be reduced on the road surface, as that wouldn't effect the bridge structure necessarily.

Victor

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Maybe this has been asked before, or maybe this isn't the correct forum, but looking at the Bus Connects site, 2 routes will be run over Hamilton Bridge at Cabra. Hamilton Bridge is a very old humpback bridge that currently takes only a single lane of car traffic. How does this make sense?

They were told to assume it could be done.

One option would be tidal traffic lights (it seems this arrangement existed previously). Another would be to build a second bridge parallel to the existing one.

Uriel.

sharper wrote: »

Are you filling out the Dublin Bus complaint form or the NTA one? Dublin Bus will always direct you to their own complaints system for obvious reasons but they know they're not running services already.

Dublin bus.
I'm thinking of forwarding all of the replies to the NTA though now that I've a bucket load. I say this typing from an expresso bus that was 16 mins late leaving (I get on an at the second stop on the route)

Chris_5339762

CatInABox wrote: »

The maps include waiting time at the bus stops as well, half the frequency. I.e. If the bus comes every fifteen minutes, the map will include a seven and a half minute wait, etc.

All of mine are 20 minute frequency at midday, at least until I can get to a spine. So a 10 minute wait is assumed. Still isn't great, 50 minutes from Ballyboden into town. Outside of traffic (say at midday) I could drive it in 20 minutes. Now, I know the bus takes a slightly different route but still, 20 minutes by car versus 50 minutes on the bus; we'll assume time-to-park is the same as the time to walk to the bus are equal, and the car is going to trounce that.


Even at rush hour the bus is not attractive at all.

salmocab

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

All of mine are 20 minute frequency at midday, at least until I can get to a spine. So a 10 minute wait is assumed. Still isn't great, 50 minutes from Ballyboden into town. Outside of traffic (say at midday) I could drive it in 20 minutes. Now, I know the bus takes a slightly different route but still, 20 minutes by car versus 50 minutes on the bus; we'll assume time-to-park is the same as the time to walk to the bus are equal, and the car is going to trounce that.


Even at rush hour the bus is not attractive at all.

I live near you and was working in Dorset street 2 years ago, 16 bus went past the site so could get in in the morning in 40 minutes including driving to the stop and waiting, coming home was a mess anything from at best 50 minutes to an hour and 20. Buses would not turn up or disappear off the screen, driver would change at Parnell square sometimes waiting 7/8 minutes for the new driver. This was at 430 so I stopped using it and 4 of us car pooled, in in 30 minutes home in 40 every day.

Riskymove

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Even at rush hour the bus is not attractive at all.

you could drive to city centre in 20 minutes in rush hour outside of holidays?

That's fairly unusual I'd say but if it works I can see why you'd use it

It takes my bus around 40-50 mins but would take far more to drive, especially trying to get down quays

MJohnston

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

All of mine are 20 minute frequency at midday, at least until I can get to a spine. So a 10 minute wait is assumed. Still isn't great, 50 minutes from Ballyboden into town. Outside of traffic (say at midday) I could drive it in 20 minutes. Now, I know the bus takes a slightly different route but still, 20 minutes by car versus 50 minutes on the bus; we'll assume time-to-park is the same as the time to walk to the bus are equal, and the car is going to trounce that.


Even at rush hour the bus is not attractive at all.

A buses effectiveness in journey time is always going to have a drop-off at a particular distance, and it just so happens you're beyond that distance. You're probably flying until the canals, and then crawling, but the bus is just doing a fairly constant speed.

Most people also have to take many other factors into account on this kind of journey, not just speed - how much more does it cost you daily in petrol and car parking fees to drive into the city vs a return bus trip?

The other absolutely major consideration is that the vast majority of passengers are going to be commuting during peak hours, so the journey times at that point are far more important to the overall bus service. And at that time of the day, the equation above quickly flips.

The final thing I'll say - your complaints seem to be more about bus service in general rather than the changes that BusConnects will bring in particular. For people who live in Ballyboden that can't afford the 20 euro or so in daily car parking fees, and who are traveling in for 9am starts, you have to say that BusConnects is a better proposition for them than the current network.

Muahahaha

Uriel. wrote: »

precisely, it is an ongoing issue and one I continually raise with DB who don't seem to care. Literally, every time there is a no show I fill out a customer complaints form. I have never done that sort of thing before, but the last 6 months it just really gets to me more and more. I think I have just shy of 65 complaints now. I'd say nearly 50% of them relate to a particular timed bus. I have asked DB to just take it off their timetable given the frequency of no show but they have refused.

After 14 years as an annual DB ticket holder I will be switching to a private operator from 2019. Lucky that I can.

65 no show buses and the 65 complaints to go with it is something else. You are right though- Dublin Bus do not care a jot about no show buses and nothing every changes so I would sent those complaints en masse to the NTA.

For me I think I had around 20-25 no show buses over the course of 3 months (around 2 a week) and after that I just gave up on Dublin Bus completely and went out and bought a motorbike. Was perfectly willing to use public transport but the shoddy service literally drove me to private transport and I havent looked back since. At least now when I get wet on the motorbike I am moving rather than standing at a Dublin Bus stop with no shelter and a bus that hasnt showed up, those days used to infuriate me and you would start your working day in a bad mood because of it. I have had cause to use DB over the years since and nothing really convinced me that they were worth going back to using full time so now I only use it if absolutely necessary (which is less than about 15 days a year thank god)

dfx-

CatInABox wrote: »

They're not. Walker was over here multiple times over the last few years, where if he wasn't in meetings, he was getting the bus. He was given instructions on where to assume infrastructure changes by the NTA.

Oh dear.

There should be two maps so, his 'redesign' as is with the current infrastructure and another with those assumptions included and actually completed.

Dardania

dfx- wrote: »

CatInABox wrote: »

They're not. Walker was over here multiple times over the last few years, where if he wasn't in meetings, he was getting the bus. He was given instructions on where to assume infrastructure changes by the NTA.

Oh dear.

There should be two maps so, his 'redesign' as is with the current infrastructure and another with those assumptions included and actually completed.

Or more, just one redesign, and everyone’s contracts in the NTA and DB to be redefined to include Performance pay based on quality of bus service delivered.
Would sharpen the mind.

CatInABox

dfx- wrote: »

Oh dear.

There should be two maps so, his 'redesign' as is with the current infrastructure and another with those assumptions included and actually completed.

Ah, I may have given you the wrong impression, sorry, that's totally my fault, I phrased it poorly.

Walker has said that they were to assume NO infrastructure changes in their plan. He has also stated that he has given the NTA a list of infrastructure changes that are required for the plan to work, and a list of infrastructure changes that are not required, but would be nice to have. That's what I was talking about in my post, but it came out totally wrong, sorry.

I can dig out his tweets if you want, they were pretty recent.

AndrewJRenko

Dardania wrote: »

Or more, just one redesign, and everyone’s contracts in the NTA and DB to be redefined to include Performance pay based on quality of bus service delivered.
Would sharpen the mind.

You have to be very, very careful about Performance Pay and similar incentives.


If you set up financial incentives for drivers to stick to a schedule, you should expect them to drive like maniacs to get those incentives, given that enforcement of traffic law is negligible here.

Victor

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You have to be very, very careful about Performance Pay and similar incentives.

If you set up financial incentives for drivers to stick to a schedule, you should expect them to drive like maniacs to get those incentives, given that enforcement of traffic law is negligible here.

Performance pay shouldn't exceed 5-10% of normal pay. Road safety and obeying the law can be part of the performance pay.

Dardania

Victor wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You have to be very, very careful about Performance Pay and similar incentives.

If you set up financial incentives for drivers to stick to a schedule, you should expect them to drive like maniacs to get those incentives, given that enforcement of traffic law is negligible here.

Performance pay shouldn't exceed 5-10% of normal pay. Road safety and obeying the law can be part of the performance pay.

Absolutely. Ryanair appears to run a very safe outfit while achieving an aggressive schedule - I suspect that performance pay (or easy discontinuation of employment) forms a role there.
One of two things will happen - the infrastructure will be forced to catch up to make the schedule happen, or the schedule revised to fit reality of what is basically possible with the roads there. However, as travelling public, we should demand an excellent world class service - we shouldn't just focus on ensuring the drivers aren't too hurried and have an easy job.

AndrewJRenko

Victor wrote: »

Performance pay shouldn't exceed 5-10% of normal pay. Road safety and obeying the law can be part of the performance pay.

Incentive systems tend to rely on what can be measured easily. It is very difficult to measure 'road safety and obeying the law' given that enforcement levels are negligible.

Dardania wrote: »

Absolutely. Ryanair appears to run a very safe outfit while achieving an aggressive schedule - I suspect that performance pay (or easy discontinuation of employment) forms a role there.

It's not really comparable, given that Ryanair don't share the roads with pedestrians and cyclists.

Dardania

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

Performance pay shouldn't exceed 5-10% of normal pay. Road safety and obeying the law can be part of the performance pay.

Incentive systems tend to rely on what can be measured easily. It is very difficult to measure 'road safety and obeying the law' given that enforcement levels are negligible.

Dardania wrote: »

Absolutely. Ryanair appears to run a very safe outfit while achieving an aggressive schedule - I suspect that performance pay (or easy discontinuation of employment) forms a role there.

It's not really comparable, given that Ryanair don't share the roads with pedestrians and cyclists.

I agree that the comparison is not apples with apples. Rules of the road still apply. As I said, it should drive infrastructure updates so that maintaining a reasonable schedule doesn't endanger people more than they are now. And the unpredictable cyclists and pedestrians don't cause too much disruption to the bus service.

MJohnston

Speaking of safety, here's a common occurrence, buses just driving through red lights (apologies for the garbled colours, my camera must be broken):

https://gph.is/2Phyzkc

BonnieSituation

Don't forget the roadshow is in Liffey Valley today fro 2 til 8

Victor

Local Information Sessions for August and September 2018 https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1304/confirmed-information-session-locations-august-and-september-2018.pdf

BonnieSituation

Victor wrote: »

Local Information Sessions for August and September 2018 https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1304/confirmed-information-session-locations-august-and-september-2018.pdf

Just got informed of the one in the Lucan Spa there.

---

Really only had time to concentrate on Lucan buses.

But basically the C1 and C2 (current 25a/b) were considered for rerouting down the Outer Ring Road and out of Foxborough. DB requested this but the NTA overruled because of the high passenger loading in the estate.

My argument was why isn't the W4 rerouted instead and thus ensuring that a high frequency route isn't stuck in Castle Road traffic needlessly every morning thus ensuring reliability.

Infrastructure at LV will include ramps up from the N4 to the M&S side for the interchange.

Further infrastructure improvements like continuous bus lanes through to Palmerstown across the M50/N4 junction and the closure of The Oval junction are part of another NTA project that goes to public consultation in October.