BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

devnull

Posts related to the latest Go-Ahead livery design moved here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057775214&page=117

Victor

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Looking at the map I cannot see where the 14 goes through parts of Clondalkin.

The other poster means Neilstown.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Clondalkin is expected to be served by luas. Thought I saw there'll be a feeder to it?

Routes 255 and 256 run to Red Cow Luas. Route 63 runs nearby. D3 and 63 connect to Kylemore. W2 to Belgard and Tallaght.

howiya wrote: »

Has there been a price proposed for the 90 min fare yet?

Someone on Twitter was saying the 90 minute fare is likely to be pitched around the current fare of €2.60.

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

Has there been a price proposed for the 90 min fare yet?

The NTA mentioned it would be somewhere in between the €2.15 and €2.60 mark

hmmm

salmocab wrote: »

Thinking on this, if people get buses to the spine routes and can’t board a bus within just a few minutes then this will crumble under political pressure in record time.

The problem at the moment is that there is no way for people who have a poor but passable bus service to know whether they won't end up in a situation like you describe. They have no reason whatsoever to trust our transport planners, and are inclined to look to stick with what they have. We saw with the College Green fiasco that LUAS and Taxis received priority from planners, with bus passengers losing out.

I don't know what the answer is, but telling people "we have a plan, trust us" isn't it.

devnull

hmmm wrote: »

The problem at the moment is that there is no way for people who have a poor but passable bus service to know whether they won't end up in a situation like you describe. They have no reason whatsoever to trust our transport planners, and are inclined to look to stick with what they have. We saw with the College Green fiasco that LUAS and Taxis received priority from planners, with bus passengers losing out.

I don't know what the answer is, but telling people "we have a plan, trust us" isn't it.

Well one thing is for sure, if people who moan that they have a poor bus service don't want to make any changes they will always have a poor bus service so should either stop moaning about it or give something new a chance.

People in Ireland do tend to be more resistant to change than other countries, that is undoubtedly true, but if you are resistant to change then you shouldn't be surprised why nothing gets better.

Qrt

My bet is the fare will be €2.30. The luas into town from Red 4 is €2.20 approx currently, I doubt a 40c increase to match the bus would go down lightly.

Stephen15

Qrt wrote: »

My bet is the fare will be €2.30. The luas into town from Red 4 is €2.20 approx currently, I doubt a 40c increase to match the bus would go down lightly.

Always wondered why the Luas fares are less than the bus.

Qrt

Stephen15 wrote: »

Always wondered why the Luas fares are less than the bus.

Me too, considering it takes half the amount of time at rush hour too.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

Always wondered why the Luas fares are less than the bus.

Perhaps reflects cheaper running costs. One Luas driver is carrying up to 500 people (on the new 54m trams) versus a bus driver carrying just 80 or so people, plus electricity cheaper then Diesel.

Of course Luas has extra costs in other areas, security staff, maintain ticket machines and overhead wires. But overall it looks like trams are generally cheaper to run then buses.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Perhaps reflects cheaper running costs. One Luas driver is carrying up to 500 people (on the new 54m trams) versus a bus driver carrying just 80 or so people, plus electricity cheaper then Diesel.

Of course Luas has extra costs in other areas, security staff, maintain ticket machines and overhead wires. But overall it looks like trams are generally cheaper to run then buses.

I was always under the impression that rail was more expensive to run than buses. Considering Tube fares are always more expensive than bus fares. Also Intercity buses are usually cheaper than Intercity trains. Another thing is that the Luas runs far more frequent than most DB routes.

Slutmonkey57b

Luas don't have to pay so many drivers, at bus driver rates, and probably get twice as much work out of them.

Stephen15

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Luas don't have to pay so many drivers, at bus driver rates, and probably get twice as much work out of them.

I thought Luas drivers were paid more

Riskymove

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought Luas drivers were paid more

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-dispute-ends-as-drivers-vote-to-accept-pay-deal-1.2671979

As part of the deal, drivers will receive wage increases between 15.6 per cent and 18.3 per cent up to September 2020, as well as an upfront payment of €750. The pay rise involves increases ranging from 3.5 per cent to 4 per cent per year for the next four years.

It will bring total earnings at the top of the scale from €42,247 to €49,972 by September 2020, and €53,220 when a 6.5 per cent bonus is included.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2016/0204/765447-bus-drivers-want-pay-rise-to-match-luas-drivers/

The NBRU has also highlighted where Luas terms and conditions exceed those at the bus companies - including bonuses, wedding leave and compassionate leave.

It notes that pensionable pay for Luas drivers for a 39-hour week at the top of the scale is E42,247.

It says the equivalent at Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann is E32,547, and at Irish Rail it is E44,700.

It notes that Luas drivers can get a bonus of 6.5% of salary, while the maximum potential bonus at Bus Eireann is 0.77%, and at Dublin Bus it is 1.54%. There are no bonuses at Irish Rail.

cherryghost

Save our buses protest outside crumlins children hospital.

What are they complaining about? They're already good bus hub is getting better.

ILBondo

cherryghost wrote: »

Save our buses protest outside crumlins children hospital.

What are they complaining about? They're already good bus hub is getting better.

They have been purposely lied to by Politicians and the NBRU.

cgcsb

Qrt wrote: »

The comments section is nowhere near as horrendous as I expected it to be.

sometimes the journal can restore your faith in humanity.

cgcsb

hmmm wrote: »

The problem at the moment is that there is no way for people who have a poor but passable bus service to know whether they won't end up in a situation like you describe. They have no reason whatsoever to trust our transport planners, and are inclined to look to stick with what they have. We saw with the College Green fiasco that LUAS and Taxis received priority from planners, with bus passengers losing out.

I don't know what the answer is, but telling people "we have a plan, trust us" isn't it.

1) trust isn't really required that's not what a public consultation is about
2) the College Green fiasco didn't happen because the planners gave luas and taxis priority over buses. It happened because Dublin City Council was given 6 years to implement a workable traffic management plan for the area that reduced car traffic as much as possible. In that 6 years they done NOTHING, because of political corruption. Nothing to do with planners.

cgcsb

cherryghost wrote: »

Save our buses protest outside crumlins children hospital.

What are they complaining about? They're already good bus hub is getting better.

protesting an improvement to the bus service. You know you've reached peak crazy.

hmmm

cgcsb wrote: »

protesting an improvement to the bus service. You know you've reached peak crazy.

They're not protesting an improvement. They're protesting a change which hasn't been properly sold to them. We can be arrogant about this or face reality.

It happened because Dublin City Council was given 6 years to implement a workable traffic management plan for the area that reduced car traffic as much as possible.

Commuters don't care who the finger of blame is pointed at. The reality again is that we had severe disruption, and commuters were left down by <insert group here>

Slutmonkey57b

Riskymove wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/luas-dispute-ends-as-drivers-vote-to-accept-pay-deal-1.2671979




https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2016/0204/765447-bus-drivers-want-pay-rise-to-match-luas-drivers/

None of which takes into account overtime, which is facilitated by the rotas.

john boye

I stumbled across the BC roadshow in the Ashleaf this evening. Went over for a minute to have a look and heard a DB rep enthusiastically telling two bemused aul wans how far they'll be able to get within 45 minutes when all they were worried about was the things they'd heard about not being able to get a bus to the shops. I got the impression that they were going a bit overboard on some of the benefits of when some of the older people in attendance just wanted to hear the basics. Some of them had been told all kinds of nonsense like there'd be no direct bus from Crumlin Village to town anymore and they just needed to be told the facts.

devnull

john boye wrote: »

I stumbled across the BC roadshow in the Ashleaf this evening. Went over for a minute to have a look and heard a DB rep enthusiastically telling two bemused aul wans how far they'll be able to get within 45 minutes when all they were worried about was the things they'd heard about not being able to get a bus to the shops. I got the impression that they were going a bit overboard on some of the benefits of when some of the older people in attendance just wanted to hear the basics. Some of them had been told all kinds of nonsense like there'd be no direct bus from Crumlin Village to town anymore and they just needed to be told the facts.

On the subject of nonsense, in Sandymount a friend of mine was handed a poster about the ending of bus services in Sandymount and also saw that there was a similar poster pinned up in the post office claiming the same.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

On the subject of nonsense, in Sandymount a friend of mine was handed a poster about the ending of bus services there and also saw that there was a similar poster pinned up in the post office claiming the same.

I noticed a notice on a bus stop there. Wasn't sure what it was about as I on the other side of the road but I'm pretty sure it was something anti BC.

SPDUB

cherryghost wrote: »

Save our buses protest outside crumlins children hospital.

What are they complaining about? They're already good bus hub is getting better.

There is a lot of disquiet in Drimnagh about the loss of the 122 and 123 especially the 122

The one big thing people I have heard people say about the loss of the 122 is that it is well used through the entire day so why is it being removed?

The other thing is that if you live in Drimnagh you are being told to go to the edge of the area to go on a bus or Luas and since the area was built there has been a bus service going through the heart of the area and to the city centre through the south circular road

Qrt

Meeting in Jobstown community centre today about BusConnects, organised by a PBP councillor and a Dublin Bus worker. In the background, signs saying "save our buses" and "no more cuts" despite the fact the area is destined to gain at least three bus routes to places that have never been within reach.

KD345

SPDUB wrote: »

There is a lot of disquiet in Drimnagh about the loss of the 122 and 123 especially the 122

The one big thing people I have heard people say about the loss of the 122 is that it is well used through the entire day so why is it being removed?

The other thing is that if you live in Drimnagh you are being told to go to the edge of the area to go on a bus or Luas and since the area was built there has been a bus service going through the heart of the area and to the city centre through the south circular road

In my opinion, cancelling the 122 is one of the worst suggestions on the Bus Connects plan. The service is every 10 minutes at peak times and is full - there is no decent replacement suggested for the route.

The removal of the 122 is not properly referenced in chapter 7 of the report. Instead, it just says ‘three short segments currently receive bus service’ but falls short from honestly saying the route will be cancelled. It claims people in the area have easy access to Luas instead. The problem is the Luas does not take the same route as the 122. It’s already overcrowded, and will be even worse once it’s taking passengers from Rathcoole, Saggart, Newcastle, Clondalkin and Bluebell/Inchicore.

The three key issues in Drimnagh are the cancelling of the 122 which removes a link to SCR, Camden/Auinger Street and College Green. The withdrawal of the 18 from the Drimnagh Road area, and the changing of the 123 to the 22 which will no longer serve Thomas Street or Walkinstown.

sharper

KD345 wrote: »

The removal of the 122 is not properly referenced in chapter 7 of the report. Instead, it just says ‘three short segments currently receive bus service’ but falls short from honestly saying the route will be cancelled. It claims people in the area have easy access to Luas instead. The problem is the Luas does not take the same route as the 122. It’s already overcrowded, and will be even worse once it’s taking passengers from Rathcoole, Saggart, Newcastle, Clondalkin and Bluebell/Inchicore.

Logically it makes sense that the plan tries to consider where other modes of transport exist.

From a practical perspective it's the weakest part of the plan because it doesn't account for loading on those transport modes, it acts as if they're currently empty and people could switch to them from the bus.

Trains and LUAS are already packed at peak times. Most of the time if people could have used these they already would since they're faster, more reliable and (usually) more comfortable than the bus.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I was always under the impression that rail was more expensive to run than buses. Considering Tube fares are always more expensive than bus fares. Also Intercity buses are usually cheaper than Intercity trains. Another thing is that the Luas runs far more frequent than most DB routes.

Heavy rail, yes. Light rail, less so. The advantage of light rail like Luas is it's relative simplicity makes it a lot more affordable to run and maintain.

It still isn't "cheap" of course, but if you have full loadings, it is pretty reasonable cost wise.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought Luas drivers were paid more

They are, but only marginally more. Not really reflective of the 6 times more passengers they are carrying.

sharper wrote: »

Trains and LUAS are already packed at peak times. Most of the time if people could have used these they already would since they're faster, more reliable and (usually) more comfortable than the bus.

It takes into account signficant increases in DART and Luas capacity that have come or coming. Longer, 55m trams for Luas, more frequent 10 minute DARTs.

Huzzah!

SG317 wrote: »

Ah but Shane Ross gave Belarmine Stepaside (his constituency) two bus routes one direct into town and x3 frequency boost. Surprised that he didn't keep the 84, seemed to be a fan of it when he got on a bus for the first time.

Maybe I'm missing something, but as a regular on the 47 route, the changes don't do me any favours and, in fact, have the potential of significantly impacting my daily commute to Grand Canal.

sharper

bk wrote: »

It takes into account signficant increases in DART and Luas capacity that have come or coming. Longer, 55m trams for Luas, more frequent 10 minute DARTs.

We also know of the practical issues with 10 minute DART. That also doesn't do anything for the Maynooth line which is basically at capacity during peak. Longer trams will help the LUAS but how much of that capacity will be used through natural growth without any bus changes?

Where alternatives exist it makes perfect sense for the bus service to feed into them. It's just that we don't have a lot of those and it seems like in the short term the government is betting on the bus system to carry the load.