BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Daith

Geuze wrote: »

Quick question - does the BusConnects project plan to reduce the number of bus stops?

AFAIK, there are too many at 7,000?

I hope so. Three bus stops on the Whithworth Road is a killer.

Looking at the route planner, it's suggesting I get the bus at Ashtown/Cabra rather than Finglas stop which could be interesting.

loyatemu

Geuze wrote: »

Quick question - does the BusConnects project plan to reduce the number of bus stops?

AFAIK, there are too many at 7,000?

I agree there's far too many, but it's a political hot potato removing stops (some may be moved though).

AlekSmart

Geuze wrote: »

Quick question - does the BusConnects project plan to reduce the number of bus stops?

AFAIK, there are too many at 7,000?

Jarrett Walker had a reduction of 25% mentioned in his original BC specs...however I suspect the NTA will actually increase the number....It appears that Modern Ireland is firmly agin any form of Fast,Direct Transport....and that's that !!!

Cookie_Monster

this is turning into a metro type project. In 4 years time it'll be on a shelf somewhere, in 8 years time it'll get dusted off and jazzed up, in 12 years time ti'll be back on the shelf.

IE 222

Should they not be focusing on the CPO's and road alterations first so then they can see what's actually available for routes/spines. Routes like the F relies heavily on the Kimmage road been widened. Personally I can't see them winning that battle as it also removes local parking and redirecting private traffic into housing estates ect. I can see this unfolding into having routes half built before been told they need to re-route a spine which leads to more objections and delays.

Another thing to note is many of the numbered routes such as the 15,16 ect are been routed along roadways which are been turned into private traffic diversion routes to make way for bus only roads. These roads are going to become heavily congested once the traffic is diverted rendering the additional numbered routes useless.

AlekSmart

IE 222 wrote: »

Should they not be focusing on the CPO's and road alterations first so then they can see what's actually available for routes/spines. Routes like the F relies heavily on the Kimmage road been widened. Personally I can't see them winning that battle as it also removes local parking and redirecting private traffic into housing estates ect. I can see this unfolding into having routes half built before been told they need to re-route a spine which leads to more objections and delays.

Another thing to note is many of the numbered routes such as the 15,16 ect are been routed along roadways which are been turned into private traffic diversion routes to make way for bus only roads. These roads are going to become heavily congested once the traffic is diverted rendering the additional numbered routes useless.

Even now,this has the look of a pretty complete mess...Routings,Headways and Infrastructual issues appear to have now been given over to various locally based committes within the NTA,with Mr Walkers centrally planned and,at least focused,Busconnects plan now almost a forgotten dream (Nightmare ?).

Unsurprisingly,long-term vision now,once again,dismissed from the equation.

cherryghost

The route planner they have is not great. It's telling me to walk 30 mins to an orbital route to go somewhere, when theres a spinal route beside my house that connects to the orbital and on paper would be much quicker

IE 222

AlekSmart wrote: »

Even now,this has the look of a pretty complete mess...Routings,Headways and Infrastructual issues appear to have now been given over to various locally based committes within the NTA,with Mr Walkers centrally planned and,at least focused,Busconnects plan now almost a forgotten dream (Nightmare ?).

Unsurprisingly,long-term vision now,once again,dismissed from the equation.

Really is a cart before the horse example.

I don't get why some people heavily praise this project when they were so critical of Network Direct cross city routes. It's much the same but with more and extended cross city routes.

Routing should only be put to public consultation once access routes and bus lanes have been confirmed. These plans are going to change another 2 or 3 times and the final product will be a half built network.

The NTA have no experience whatsoever in transport. This has been pretty evident the last number of years. We've stripped transport companies of powers and spent millions in the meantime of creating an organisation that doesn't know what to do. They've effectively given Dublin Bus, the only company in the state with such experience of delivering bus route projects, the 2 fingers while they motor on with these ambitious plans to say the lease.

starbaby2003

cherryghost wrote: »

The route planner they have is not great. It's telling me to walk 30 mins to an orbital route to go somewhere, when theres a spinal route beside my house that connects to the orbital and on paper would be much quicker

I found it great, really accurate. If there are discrepancies maybe reach out to them and let them know.

donvito99

IE 222 wrote: »

The NTA have no experience whatsoever in transport.

Phenomenal comment.

cgcsb

IE 222 wrote: »

Really is a cart before the horse example.

I don't get why some people heavily praise this project when they were so critical of Network Direct cross city routes. It's much the same but with more and extended cross city routes.

Routing should only be put to public consultation once access routes and bus lanes have been confirmed. These plans are going to change another 2 or 3 times and the final product will be a half built network.

The NTA have no experience whatsoever in transport. This has been pretty evident the last number of years. We've stripped transport companies of powers and spent millions in the meantime of creating an organisation that doesn't know what to do. They've effectively given Dublin Bus, the only company in the state with such experience of delivering bus route projects, the 2 fingers while they motor on with these ambitious plans to say the lease.

I'm curious what you mean? Dublin Bus have 'experience' of operating a bus monopoly for the benefit of its employees rather than customers. It has experience of allowing it's drivers to decide whether or not they want to open the back doors, whether or not they want to stop at certain stops and whether or not they want to get out of the bus mid shift and go to the shop, they can even curse and shout at customers if they like. The NTA have brought in global consultants who have designed transport systems globally I'm countries that have the ability to implement and manage them. Dublin Bus is effectively equivalent to the informal services that run through Addis Ababba with informal ticketing. I'm just curious how you think it's 'experienced'. You can't even change buses on the Dublin Bus network without being double charged in 2019.

IE 222

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm curious what you mean? Dublin Bus have 'experience' of operating a bus monopoly for the benefit of its employees rather than customers. It has experience of allowing it's drivers to decide whether or not they want to open the back doors, whether or not they want to stop at certain stops and whether or not they want to get out of the bus mid shift and go to the shop, they can even curse and shout at customers if they like. The NTA have brought in global consultants who have designed transport systems globally I'm countries that have the ability to implement and manage them. Dublin Bus is effectively equivalent to the informal services that run through Addis Ababba with informal ticketing. I'm just curious how you think it's 'experienced'. You can't even change buses on the Dublin Bus network without being double charged in 2019.

Well after 30 years in existence and operating bus routes hands on throughout the city I think many would agree they are a lot more experienced than a new formed group of pen pushers. Dublin bus have experience developing routes and making changes such to the network with projects such as Network Direct, City Swift, City Imp ect. I fail to see how bringing Go-Ahead in has been a game changer.

Some of your operating concerns were more union issues rather than Anne Graham's great presence.

As you say the NTA just outsourced the work in terms of Bus Connects. Do we really need a second state body to be created to do this. Even with the globally recognized consultations the NTA are still struggling to get beyond the first hurdle.

It's been in the NTA's hands the past number of years so if you still have questions and concerns as to why in 2019 certain changes haven't commenced you need to direct them towards the NTA and not Dublin Bus.

Sam Russell

If they introduced the 90 min fare now, it would solve some of the perceived problems of changing buses. Let the public benefit from that and they might see the sense behind Busconnects.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they introduced the 90 min fare now, it would solve some of the perceived problems of changing buses. Let the public benefit from that and they might see the sense behind Busconnects.

If it's not introduced in the fare determination which is due any day now I think we can take it as a given that the antique Wayfarers can't handle it

Joker2019

IE 222 wrote: »

Well after 30 years in existence and operating bus routes hands on throughout the city I think many would agree they are a lot more experienced than a new formed group of pen pushers. Dublin bus have experience developing routes and making changes such to the network with projects such as Network Direct, City Swift, City Imp ect. I fail to see how bringing Go-Ahead in has been a game changer.

Some of your operating concerns were more union issues rather than Anne Graham's great presence.

As you say the NTA just outsourced the work in terms of Bus Connects. Do we really need a second state body to be created to do this. Even with the globally recognized consultations the NTA are still struggling to get beyond the first hurdle.

It's been in the NTA's hands the past number of years so if you still have questions and concerns as to why in 2019 certain changes haven't commenced you need to direct them towards the NTA and not Dublin Bus.

City Swift and City Imp were just liveries so they were hardly anything revolutionary. Network Direct was a series of cuts disguised as "service improvements" which are only being restored now by the NTA. Yes I agree the NTA is far from perfect but I think we can safely say that bus services in Dublin are better now than they were ten years ago.

xper

Its very evident that the NTA are being a bit quicker to get out and promote this second iteration and public consultation. Ads on the radio this week plus, yesterday morning, a young chap wearing a BusConnects branded hi-viz was handing out pamphlets at the bus stop about the local area’s proposals and encouraging commuters to submit responses.

Just as well to get out and compete with the nay-sayers. Richard Boyd Barrett still going down the populism route on BusConnects. He was on the radio today complaining that pensioners in his constituency must have a direct bus from their front door to O’Connell St. Kept insisting that having fewer buses than in 2008 must be a bad thing despite it being pointed out to him that changing efficiency of how the buses are used can increase network capacity.

MB05

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm curious what you mean? Dublin Bus have 'experience' of operating a bus monopoly for the benefit of its employees rather than customers. It has experience of allowing it's drivers to decide whether or not they want to open the back doors, whether or not they want to stop at certain stops and whether or not they want to get out of the bus mid shift and go to the shop, they can even curse and shout at customers if they like. The NTA have brought in global consultants who have designed transport systems globally I'm countries that have the ability to implement and manage them. Dublin Bus is effectively equivalent to the informal services that run through Addis Ababba with informal ticketing. I'm just curious how you think it's 'experienced'. You can't even change buses on the Dublin Bus network without being double charged in 2019.

Given the choice of Dublin Bus or Go Ahead (who have international experience) I would pick Dublin Bus every single time. For the most part I find the Dublin Bus drivers friendly and professional. Yes, I have been on buses where the driver has been aggressive, unhelpful or rude but that would be the exception rather than the rule. It's definitely improved over the years. My pet hate though is the changing of drivers on the Quays. Does my head in to be sat there for 5 mins while they wait for a driver to replace them or chat to each other as they swap.

As for the ticketing issue you mentioned that's not unique to Dublin Bus. Every single form of transport in this country is priced point to point depending on how far you are travelling. None of them offer transfer tickets. Dublin Bus did have a version of it years ago. You used to be able to get a Transfer 90 ticket back in the day which allowed you to travel on any other bus within 90 mins of the start of the initial journey and it only cost an extra 10p (that's how long ago it was). The nearest thing to it now is they take a euro off the second journey when you use the leap card.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

If it's not introduced in the fare determination which is due any day now I think we can take it as a given that the antique Wayfarers can't handle it

The fare determinations will be a little later this year. From what I have heard there have been discussions with operators that have gone on later than in previous years in an attempt to find agreement.

Also the Wayfarers not being able to support the functionality that you talk about may not be the only reason for this. The challenges will also be how the revenue will be divvied out, especially by operators who are dependent on farebox revenue and the NTA probably don't want to go down the blank cheque route.

IE 222

Joker2019 wrote: »

City Swift and City Imp were just liveries so they were hardly anything revolutionary. Network Direct was a series of cuts disguised as "service improvements" which are only being restored now by the NTA. Yes I agree the NTA is far from perfect but I think we can safely say that bus services in Dublin are better now than they were ten years ago.

There was a concept behind the liveries and rebranding of the services. City Swift was the opening of the main corridors to Lucan, Blanc, Fingal Malahide road ect, and was major success, pretty much what the NTA are doing with the "Spine" routes. City imp provided new short hop high frequency routes which have all developed into successful major routes such as the 83, 121, 122, 120, 155 (no apart of the 9) and various other routes. Network direct was a cost cutting measure but it was a successful one as well. Something a lot people fail to recognize is that Network Direct opened up and linked many suburbs within the city to a lot more people. Everything previous to it was only destined for the city centre.

The NTA are not restoring old routes pre-network direct. If anything they are continuing on with the same cross city trend and pulling more local buses out of estates and onto corridors. They are adding more capacity into the network but many living outside or beyond the main spine are going to see a frequency reduction unless you walk 10/15 mins to a new route.

Yes, but I wouldn't put this down solely to the NTA's presence. Over the last 10 years the country has come out of recession and been able to invest more into buses and with the growth and cheaper technology many of the new services we've seen introduced over the years would of came in regardless.

dowlingm

devnull wrote: »

The fare determinations will be a little later this year. From what I have heard there have been discussions with operators that have gone on later than in previous years in an attempt to find agreement.

Also the Wayfarers not being able to support the functionality that you talk about may not be the only reason for this. The challenges will also be how the revenue will be divvied out, especially by operators who are dependent on farebox revenue and the NTA probably don't want to go down the blank cheque route.

It should not matter a damn to the operators whether their passenger is a new ride or a transfer. They should be being paid on the basis of capacity provided only. Whether the total incoming revenue is sufficient to pay the bills should be the NTA's problem only (and I may have missed something but I thought that was the model being adopted?).

The 2 hour transfer in Toronto between buses, subway and trams (if you have a smartcard) has been great for many people who just need to make a stop for a few minutes on the way home to run a short errand, so don't have to buy a monthly pass in anticipation of stops they may or may not make in the next four weeks.

You transfer with a paper receipt but there are all sorts of validity rules. These were dispensed with when the smartcard transfer was introduced - used to drive smartcard adoption but also they get tap data from the card which they don't from the paper.

devnull

dowlingm wrote: »

It should not matter a damn to the operators whether their passenger is a new ride or a transfer. They should be being paid on the basis of capacity provided only. Whether the total incoming revenue is sufficient to pay the bills should be the NTA's problem only (and I may have missed something but I thought that was the model being adopted?).

Any operator on non tendered services is dependent on farebox revenue in addition to the PSO subsidy and asset subsidy that the are getting. That has always been the way for a long, long time. +

The only PSO operators who are not keeping the farebox are the ones who are on tendered services, such as Bus Eireann on the Waterford corridor and Go Ahead on the Dublin routes.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

If they introduced the 90 min fare now, it would solve some of the perceived problems of changing buses. Let the public benefit from that and they might see the sense behind Busconnects.

I'd also like to see them introduce the O route now - I mean why not? It doesn't affect any of the rest of the plan.

As for the negotiations on the fare; the govt could guarantee the revenue for a fraction of the cost of the road they're building in Mayo. I thought the idea was that the operators would be paid to operate the routes and the NTA would take the farebox revenue (and associated risk).

cgcsb

IE 222 wrote: »

Well after 30 years in existence and operating bus routes hands on throughout the city I think many would agree they are a lot more experienced than a new formed group of pen pushers. Dublin bus have experience developing routes and making changes such to the network with projects such as Network Direct, City Swift, City Imp ect. I fail to see how bringing Go-Ahead in has been a game changer.

Some of your operating concerns were more union issues rather than Anne Graham's great presence.

As you say the NTA just outsourced the work in terms of Bus Connects. Do we really need a second state body to be created to do this. Even with the globally recognized consultations the NTA are still struggling to get beyond the first hurdle.

It's been in the NTA's hands the past number of years so if you still have questions and concerns as to why in 2019 certain changes haven't commenced you need to direct them towards the NTA and not Dublin Bus.

If you think Dublin Bus have experience and Aecom, Jacobs and Systra do not then I'm afraid you haven't a breeze.

tom1ie

Hi guys I know this has probably already been posted but I can't seem to find the detailed drawing of the f spine corridor. The actual pdf drawings of what the nta plan to do to widen the corridor and put bike lanes in, as opposed to the route map which I keep getting when I Google it or go on the nta map.
If anyone could post a picture id greatly appreciate it.
Thanks.

StreetLight

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm curious what you mean? Dublin Bus have 'experience' of operating a bus monopoly for the benefit of its employees rather than customers. It has experience of allowing it's drivers to decide whether or not they want to open the back doors, whether or not they want to stop at certain stops and whether or not they want to get out of the bus mid shift and go to the shop, they can even curse and shout at customers if they like. The NTA have brought in global consultants who have designed transport systems globally I'm countries that have the ability to implement and manage them. Dublin Bus is effectively equivalent to the informal services that run through Addis Ababba with informal ticketing. I'm just curious how you think it's 'experienced'. You can't even change buses on the Dublin Bus network without being double charged in 2019.

It's one of the constants of this forum that we're never too far away from a Dublin Bus basher with a lot of unsubstantiated hyperbolic poppycock.

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

Hi guys I know this has probably already been posted but I can't seem to find the detailed drawing of the f spine corridor. The actual pdf drawings of what the nta plan to do to widen the corridor and put bike lanes in, as opposed to the route map which I keep getting when I Google it or go on the nta map.
If anyone could post a picture id greatly appreciate it.
Thanks.

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/core-bus-corridor-project/
Scroll down and hit number 12

Dyr

So under bus connects will the NTA still be encouraging people to give up their cars by giving public transport the weekend off for bank holidays?

donvito99

Bambi wrote: »

So under bus connects will the NTA still be encouraging people to give up their cars by giving public transport the weekend off for bank holidays?

No but I imagine the roads will be as congested as they are mid week as a result of 1.2 people per car totalling themselves the M50 and blocking yellow boxes, bus lanes....

Skatedude

donvito99 wrote: »

No but I imagine the roads will be as congested as they are mid week as a result of 1.2 people per car totalling themselves the M50 and blocking yellow boxes, bus lanes....

If public transport still doesn't run weekends to get people to and from work, then people will still use cars, it'a no brainer really.

donvito99

Skatedude wrote: »

If public transport still doesn't run weekends to get people to and from work, then people will still use cars, it'a no brainer really.

And that's no issue. it's no coincidence that the full force of public transport is unleashed when there is the greatest demand for it, which is midweek. To critique the plans on the basis that there will be less service at the weekend is silly