BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

loyatemu

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

Is that now stated somewhere definitively? The new Chapter 7 document states it is a "key assumption" that the 90 min fare will apply across all modes inc commuter rail, but the area leaflets state it will apply bus, Luas and DART with no reference to commuter rail. And following publication of the first plan, I had confirmation from BusConnects on twitter that it didn't include commuter rail, and from Dan Constantino who said it wasn't included but should be.

the existing Leap 90 fare covers the short hop zone. Irish Rail make no distinction between Dart and Commuter in the fares - they're based on the stations you use. With Maynooth, Balbriggan and Hazelhatch lines all due to be upgraded to Dart it would be odd not to include them from the start.

Qrt

Is the initial implementation date late 2020 or early 2021? I assume they’ll go with implementing the new orbitals at first? Then again, you never know...

sharper

Qrt wrote: »

Is the initial implementation date late 2020 or early 2021? I assume they’ll go with implementing the new orbitals at first? Then again, you never know...

Implementation is due to begin in phases in 2021 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-s-bus-network-redesign-to-be-carried-out-over-phased-basis-1.3930058

Qrt

sharper wrote: »

Implementation is due to begin in phases in 2021 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-s-bus-network-redesign-to-be-carried-out-over-phased-basis-1.3930058

Christ, implementing some of the routes are nothing more than someone getting the finger out, like my beloved W4. It’s actually insane.

tom1ie

Sorry if this was covered before but what is the breakdown of the bus connects costs? How much of the 2bn is going towards the road and cycle lanes in particular?
I know the overall 2bn project includes new busses, integrated ticketing, network redesign, but how much goes towards the extra tarmac?
Thanks.

tom1ie

So this morning I’m stuck in a traffic que on killininny road in Tallaght for at least 15 mins.
Apparently it’s like this every morning.
I noticed a bus behind me (can’t remember the route number but it’s not dB)
And a bus about ten cars up from also stuck in traffic.
I also noticed a bus coming towards me which was stuck in traffic just as bad.
All three busses were packed.
This route will become part of the s8 orbital route.
That road all the way up to the m50 junction at firhouse, has a wide grass verge which could be converted to an incredibly efficient qbc, as there’s not too many left turns cutting across it.
As far as I know bus connects has no plans to build a bus lane here which is absolutely criminal in my opinion.
It would make the bus a much easier sell, and would make interconnection with other radial routes so much more efficient.
Bus connects not adding a bus lane hear is shocking. (Unless I’m wrong and I can’t see that upgrade)

Qrt

tom1ie wrote: »

So this morning I’m stuck in a traffic que on killininny road in Tallaght for at least 15 mins.
Apparently it’s like this every morning.
I noticed a bus behind me (can’t remember the route number but it’s not dB)
And a bus about ten cars up from also stuck in traffic.
I also noticed a bus coming towards me which was stuck in traffic just as bad.
All three busses were packed.
This route will become part of the s8 orbital route.
That road all the way up to the m50 junction at firhouse, has a wide grass verge which could be converted to an incredibly efficient qbc, as there’s not too many left turns cutting across it.
As far as I know bus connects has no plans to build a bus lane here which is absolutely criminal in my opinion.
It would make the bus a much easier sell, and would make interconnection with other radial routes so much more efficient.
Bus connects not adding a bus lane hear is shocking. (Unless I’m wrong and I can’t see that upgrade)

Fairly sure the “green route” is due to be a BusConnects CRC as part of the orbital routes...ie in 2030

tom1ie

Qrt wrote: »

Fairly sure the “green route” is due to be a BusConnects CRC as part of the orbital routes...ie in 2030

Thanks for that. What do you mean by CRC? I though it was only the radial routes getting infrastructure upgrades, or am I mistaken?
2030? Jaysus! A decade before a very important orbital route is upgraded to separate qbc? That's so unambitious.
Also will that be upgrade work starting in 2030 or will it be wheels on tarmac in 2030?
Thanks.

cgcsb

Well spend about 8bn on more roads between now and then which is the funny part

JPup

tom1ie wrote: »

So this morning I’m stuck in a traffic que on killininny road in Tallaght for at least 15 mins.
Apparently it’s like this every morning.
I noticed a bus behind me (can’t remember the route number but it’s not dB)
And a bus about ten cars up from also stuck in traffic.
I also noticed a bus coming towards me which was stuck in traffic just as bad.
All three busses were packed.
This route will become part of the s8 orbital route.
That road all the way up to the m50 junction at firhouse, has a wide grass verge which could be converted to an incredibly efficient qbc, as there’s not too many left turns cutting across it.
As far as I know bus connects has no plans to build a bus lane here which is absolutely criminal in my opinion.
It would make the bus a much easier sell, and would make interconnection with other radial routes so much more efficient.
Bus connects not adding a bus lane hear is shocking. (Unless I’m wrong and I can’t see that upgrade)

Not trying to be smart but have you emailed that to Bus Connects? It's a good suggestion. The second consultation period is now open and that's exactly the sort of feedback they are looking for.

They are hosting public consultation events in Tallaght on the 20th and 21st of this month too if you'd prefer to speak to a representative in person.

cgcsb

The NTA are, bizarrely, not considering orbital routes as part of the core bus corridor project. I assume because of budget as most of the transport budget, yet again, is going into building new roads.

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

Well spend about 8bn on more roads between now and then which is the funny part

Don’t exactly see the funny part of this? Even if we did spend 8bn on roads, how many of them would be in Dublin or even the GDA?

Last Stop

JPup wrote: »

Not trying to be smart but have you emailed that to Bus Connects? It's a good suggestion. The second consultation period is now open and that's exactly the sort of feedback they are looking for.

They are hosting public consultation events in Tallaght on the 20th and 21st of this month too if you'd prefer to speak to a representative in person.

The current consultation is on the network redesign not the infrastructure

AlekSmart

cgcsb wrote: »

The NTA are, bizarrely, not considering orbital routes as part of the core bus corridor project. I assume because of budget as most of the transport budget, yet again, is going into building new roads.

One of the most obvious signs that the NTA's Busconnects plan is not exactly following the Jarrett Walker original, is the nature of how the Authority view it.

Walker was quite clear that c.10% of his plan was up for modification,and how it had to be viewed as a Big-Bang rather than a drip-feed type of restructuring.

All I am now seeing is a very typical "Irish Solution to an Irish Problem" which will eventually result in the original problem remaining unaddressed,along with a raft of new problems nobody envisaged occuring.....It's how we do things

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

The NTA are, bizarrely, not considering orbital routes as part of the core bus corridor project. I assume because of budget as most of the transport budget, yet again, is going into building new roads.

Can you please stop blaming building new roads for the NTAs unwillingness to invest meaningfully in PT in Dublin. These 2 completely separate issues.
Even if we stopped building roads in the morning, Dublin would not gain more money as there is other PT projects in Cork, Galway, limerick etc.
There is life outside the pale!! Dublin is due to receive 7bn investment of the next 10 years between Metro, DART and Busconnect. Pro rata that would suggest there is 21bn for the rest of the country and that simply isn’t the case. Whether you like it or not, Dublin is getting more than it’s fair share of investment

MJohnston

Oh great, the money would go towards public transport in other cities? Let’s do *that* then, because that sounds like an excellent outcome compared to “more roads”.

Last Stop

MJohnston wrote: »

Oh great, the money would go towards public transport in other cities? Let’s do *that* then, because that sounds like an excellent outcome compared to “more roads”.

Thought you weren’t engaging with me?

I’d be more than happy to invest in PT in other cities but that does not solve the “issue” of investment in Dublin or the obvious issues around the country with freight which is 99% road based and will be for some time

marno21

Dublin is getting an investment of €3bn in MetroLink, €2bn in BusConnects, and €2bn in DART Expansion. Plus money on the N3, N4, N7 and N11 widening schemes. And lots more smaller projects I won't even list

Cork is getting €200m for "BusConnects" and so is Galway, neither of which have had remotely formal plans published to date. Cork has had a draft transport strategy published with obscene timelines, and no formal funding announcements to date.

There is a lot of money being spent on roads, the bulk of which is maintenance. Money for maintenance of bus corridors and the Irish Rail network is not included in the above Dublin totals.

Some new roads are being built, which is about ****ing time because buses and freight are just as important to get around the country as anything else.

MJohnston

marno21 wrote: »

Dublin is getting an investment of €3bn in MetroLink, €2bn in BusConnects, and €2bn in DART Expansion. Plus money on the N3, N4, N7 and N11 widening schemes. And lots more smaller projects I won't even list

Cork is getting €200m for "BusConnects" and so is Galway, neither of which have had remotely formal plans published to date. Cork has had a draft transport strategy published with obscene timelines, and no formal funding announcements to date.

There is a lot of money being spent on roads, the bulk of which is maintenance. Money for maintenance of bus corridors and the Irish Rail network is not included in the above Dublin totals.

Some new roads are being built, which is about ****ing time because buses and freight are just as important to get around the country as anything else.

Widening schemes are decidedly not important though, they’re inadequate solutions to a traffic problem that can only be resolved with transport investment.

thomasj

Bus cancelled this morning so had a 20 minute wait and a smaller GT bus shows up. Bus packed with 15-20 standing , 2 buggies and people standing right up to the front door.

Ironically the plans for my area is for a (smaller bus obviously presuming they rid of VTs ) running every 15 minutes, so this mornings show was a taster of what's to come.

cgcsb

Last Stop wrote: »

Can you please stop blaming building new roads for the NTAs unwillingness to invest meaningfully in PT in Dublin. These 2 completely separate issues.
Even if we stopped building roads in the morning, Dublin would not gain more money as there is other PT projects in Cork, Galway, limerick etc.
There is life outside the pale!! Dublin is due to receive 7bn investment of the next 10 years between Metro, DART and Busconnect. Pro rata that would suggest there is 21bn for the rest of the country and that simply isn’t the case. Whether you like it or not, Dublin is getting more than it’s fair share of investment

What Are you blithering on about? If money was spent on pt outside of Dublin that would also be a positive outcome but no the majority is on new roads, mostly in rural areas and around cork city to promote more sprawl

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

Dublin is getting an investment of €3bn in MetroLink, €2bn in BusConnects, and €2bn in DART Expansion. Plus money on the N3, N4, N7 and N11 widening schemes. And lots more smaller projects I won't even list

Cork is getting €200m for "BusConnects" and so is Galway, neither of which have had remotely formal plans published to date. Cork has had a draft transport strategy published with obscene timelines, and no formal funding announcements to date.

There is a lot of money being spent on roads, the bulk of which is maintenance. Money for maintenance of bus corridors and the Irish Rail network is not included in the above Dublin totals.

Some new roads are being built, which is about ****ing time because buses and freight are just as important to get around the country as anything else.

Widening roads to attract more cars solves nothing as has been demonstrated around the world. The money should be redirected to PT, as for road maintenance, fair enough. As for the pt schemes mention. If one of them is actually completed or even in construction that'd be a valid point. Most of these projects have been 'in planning' for the guts of 40 years.

Macy0161

cgcsb wrote: »

Widening roads to attract more cars solves nothing as has been demonstrated around the world. The money should be redirected to PT, as for road maintenance, fair enough. As for the pt schemes mention. If one of them is actually completed or even in construction that'd be a valid point. Most of these projects have been 'in planning' for the guts of 40 years.

There does seem to be some movement towards PT/ Bus lanes in the M/N11 upgrade project documents, and some of the politicians comment. Cycling as a solution still chronically over looked (in general, and this project).

tom1ie

Is there anyway the green route can be upgraded to remove the grass verge and build a bus lane in either direction outside of the scope of bus connects?
As in the council do it as a separate project?
The reason I say this is I personally think bc is a dead and will take decades to come to some sort of realization.

Seth Brundle

Macy0161 wrote: »

There does seem to be some movement towards PT/ Bus lanes in the M/N11 upgrade project documents, and some of the politicians comment. Cycling as a solution still chronically over looked (in general, and this project).

There is grudging movement towards PT. The main media organisations are against BusConnects. The politicians are against BusConnects because they would like to have a bus stop outside everybody's house.
The PT system is being led by populist agendas, with limited funding and not by what is best for the free movement of commuters in and around our cities.
As for cycling - don't make me laugh. Completely substandard facilities meaning that cyclists are forced to compete with vehicles for space on the road.
We will spend a lot of money on PT improvement over the coming years and yet very little will change IMO simply because we don't really want it to.

AlekSmart

thomasj wrote: »

Bus cancelled this morning so had a 20 minute wait and a smaller GT bus shows up. Bus packed with 15-20 standing , 2 buggies and people standing right up to the front door.

Ironically the plans for my area is for a (smaller bus obviously presuming they rid of VTs ) running every 15 minutes, so this mornings show was a taster of what's to come.

Currently the NTA is very much taken by Fully Electric vehicles,to the detriment of alternatives which are already available and far more reasonable than the Full EV vehicles which come with many compromises.

https://cbwmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/enviro400xlb-8-600x400.jpg

donvito99

itchywhole wrote: »

the NTA are clueless, the public are starting to see this and in the year ahead it will become even more obvious

How and how? What has/is the NTA done/doing to warrant them being clueless?

tom1ie

donvito99 wrote: »

How and how? What has/is the NTA done/doing to warrant them being clueless?

The public perception is they are taking a hell of a long time to do very little. No planning permission submitted for BC or metro link......never ending public consultation, allowing politicians change viable plans (original bus connects reorg plan), little to no positive pr. Electrification of commuter services taking ages, deciding there's no need for a metro in SW Dublin even though it has chronic PT times, the worst in the state, that's just off the top of my head.

donvito99

tom1ie wrote: »

The public perception is they are taking a hell of a long time to do very little. No planning permission submitted for BC or metro link......never ending public consultation, allowing politicians change viable plans (original bus connects reorg plan), little to no positive pr. Electrification of commuter services taking ages, deciding there's no need for a metro in SW Dublin even though it has chronic PT times, the worst in the state, that's just off the top of my head.

On the other hand, since the NTA has come into existence, they have advanced MetroLink to drills in the ground and brought about the actual Bus Connect proposal.

As for no need for a Metro in South Dublin, that's because they have not been asked by a Government to do so and no investigation has ever been made into the voracity of such a route. That route has only really existed in the minds of those who are hell bent on prevent Bus Connects in that area.

Politicians are perfectly entitled to change plan. To say that the NTA should not listen to the public or politicians and just plow at their own discretion suggest that you really know very little about what the NTA, what its purpose is and what it is allowed to do.

thomasj

AlekSmart wrote:

Currently the NTA is very much taken by Fully Electric vehicles,to the detriment of alternatives which are already available and far more reasonable than the Full EV vehicles which come with many compromises.

The answer to these problems were the BRT plans, plenty of capacity and room for multiple buggy's and wheelchairs. We going further and further backwards.