BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Spanish Eyes

The long time frame for this is putting people off.

I do realise that there are many issues to be ironed out re bus lanes/cyclists and so on, but it could be introduced on a phased basis on the so called "good" bus lanes that currently exist.

I am not impressed with the timeline at all. Phase it in, see how it will work and then let people see how it might work for them.

The timeline for this is worse than Luas or Underground. Honestly.

Surely it can be phased in and make a difference without delay to some routes as a start. If people see how good that is, they may be less impatient, or maybe they will be more impatient.

I am not impressed with the timeline here at all. Sorry.

tom1ie

donvito99 wrote: »

On the other hand, since the NTA has come into existence, they have advanced MetroLink to drills in the ground and brought about the actual Bus Connect proposal.

As for no need for a Metro in South Dublin, that's because they have not been asked by a Government to do so and no investigation has ever been made into the voracity of such a route. That route has only really existed in the minds of those who are hell bent on prevent Bus Connects in that area.

Politicians are perfectly entitled to change plan. To say that the NTA should not listen to the public or politicians and just plow at their own discretion suggest that you really know very little about what the NTA, what its purpose is and what it is allowed to do.

Ah finally someone who can enlighten me as to what the nta’s purpose is. Go ahead and let me know, as I thought the nta were here to sort out the country’s traffic problems and develop a fully functioning and coherent public transport system.

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

The public perception is they are taking a hell of a long time to do very little.

I'd argue that it's very generous to assume the public has any perception of the NTA, or public transport in general.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd argue that it's very generous to assume the public has any perception of the NTA, or public transport in general.

Actually your probably right, and whose fault is that? I’d blame the nta and their lack of public profile and lack of progress in solving the commuter chaos we have.

I mean, if you think about this, they are trying to solve a massive problem by trying to get bc off the ground, whereas if they concentrated on solving specific pinch points first, for example the building of bus lanes on kilinniny road which is only a 2km stretch.
If this project was rolled out with big “provided by the nta” road signs, that would get huge public positivity behind them, instead of the shambles we have now.

sharper

tom1ie wrote: »

Actually your probably right, and whose fault is that? I’d blame the nta and their lack of public profile and lack of progress in solving the commuter chaos we have.

I wouldn't stand behind every decision made by the NTA but a lot of time what their plans are just fine but get messed around at the political level, either national or city council. See Luas Cross City for example where DCC declined to implement the proper traffic management measures.

BusConnects is the same. The initial plan is not perfect but it's being torn apart at the political level. This is where a good minister for transport would be out fighting the political battles but is instead acting as if he's unaware the NTA has anything to do with him.

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

Actually your probably right, and whose fault is that? I’d blame the nta and their lack of public profile and lack of progress in solving the commuter chaos we have.

I mean, if you think about this, they are trying to solve a massive problem by trying to get bc off the ground, whereas if they concentrated on solving specific pinch points first, for example the building of bus lanes on kilinniny road which is only a 2km stretch.
If this project was rolled out with big “provided by the nta” road signs, that would get huge public positivity behind them, instead of the shambles we have now.

I pretty much disagree that the NTA are responsible for lack of progress. That's at the feet of various governments, who have nothing in mind other than electability concerns.

And the brand of the NTA does not matter to the public. It only matters that the public don't raise issues of public transport to their councillors or TDs. Instead the most vocal contingents are The AA or the Dublin car park owner's association.

Fine Gael, in particular (though FF are just as bad when in power), have little interest in objective, technocratic modes of governance. They are capitalistic populists. In other words - they are unwilling to give the country what it actually needs, they are only willing to give the country what they think it wants.

The NTA can only operate at the mercy of the government of the time.

MJohnston

And yes, having a Minister for Transport like Shane Ross, who very clearly could not give a single solitary **** about anything to do with transport, is a real problem for the NTA. They need someone to be a political defender for them, to fight their corner. Shane Ross, meanwhile, is more likely to throw them under the bus (pun not intended) for his own glory (as he did repeatedly with Stepaside bus routes under BusConnects)

donvito99

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah finally someone who can enlighten me as to what the nta’s purpose is. Go ahead and let me know, as I thought the nta were here to sort out the country’s traffic problems and develop a fully functioning and coherent public transport system.

That's exactly what they're doing. But you complained that it was somehow the NTAs fault that funding has not been released to actually start on the projects they have adopted/created, and that it is somehow bad that the NTA should actually involve the public - i.e. th end user - in developing their plans.

Consider yourself enlightened

tom1ie

donvito99 wrote: »

That's exactly what they're doing. But you complained that it was somehow the NTAs fault that funding has not been released to actually start on the projects they have adopted/created, and that it is somehow bad that the NTA should actually involve the public - i.e. th end user - in developing their plans.

Consider yourself enlightened

Sure buddy great story. :rolleyes:

I never mentioned funding once.
I said the public perception was, the length of time it takes for the nta to deliver projects is ludicrous.

But hey don’t let those facts get in the way.
Just for the record, I do think it’s crazy we are giving so much input to the public for this project. Jarrett walker was hired to come up with a plan.
Him and his team are the experts.
Not Johnny and Ann who think they know better than anyone else and whose only motive is to make sure they can drive and park their car wherever they want.
Please read peoples posts more carefully in future.
Consider yourself corrected.

donvito99

Let's go through some of your genius critiques again

tom1ie wrote: »

No planning permission submitted for BC or metro link......

Shure why should massive, billion quid infrastructure projects take a little while to prepare to submit to various local and national planning organisations (Metro is a railway order and not planning by the way). Why not just submit it now, be rejected, and delay these projects. That'd definitely speed things up alright.

never ending public consultation, allowing politicians change viable plans (original bus connects reorg plan)

That was always the plan and it is the only way this project - ultimately funded by politicians - was ever going to proceed.

little to no positive pr.

Their copious advertising online covering BusConnects, Metro and Dart expansion would beg to differ.

Electrification of commuter services taking ages,

Shure you'd lash it up wouldn't you and we'd have Darts to everywhere in no time... Government has only recently instructed (by saying it would fund) to proceed with Maynooth as a priority, likely having been advised that this was easier and more sensible to implement in priority to the Northern Line by the NTA.

deciding there's no need for a metro in SW Dublin even though it has chronic PT times, the worst in the state

This is just hilarious. Do you actually have an idea of the scope of what the NTA is charged with doing/what it can actually do? Do you really think they can go off and develop their own pet projects, independent of Government, and just crack on and break ground?

that's just off the top of my head.

Jaysis I would never have guessed...

tom1ie wrote: »

Sure buddy great story. :rolleyes:

I said the public perception was, the length of time it takes for the nta to deliver projects is ludicrous.

So the public are angry that the NTA haven't been quicker in delivering projects despite being hamstrung by the fact that they cannot proceed any quicker than the the politicians, the planners and the law allows?

In fact, it's public perception and the public's local councillors that are responsible and will be responsible for future delays in these projects.

But hey let's just blame the NTA...

Just for the record, I do think it’s crazy we are giving so much input to the public for this project. Jarrett walker was hired to come up with a plan.
Him and his team are the experts.
Not Johnny and Ann who think they know better than anyone else and whose only motive is to make sure they can drive and park their car wherever they want.
Please read peoples posts more carefully in future.
Consider yourself corrected.

:pac::pac:

So if you were in charge of the NTA, you'd just;

1. Ignore statutory remit of the NTA
2. Ignore public
3. Complete all projects without proper planning and without any funding

Yeah that'll go down well.

It's reading posts like these that makes me think that we're not far away from some sort of Brexit like insanity in this country.

tom1ie

donvito99 wrote: »

Let's go through some of your genius critiques again



Shure why should massive, billion quid infrastructure projects take a little while to prepare to submit to various local and national planning organisations (Metro is a railway order and not planning by the way). Why not just submit it now, be rejected, and delay these projects. That'd definitely speed things up alright.



That was always the plan and it is the only way this project - ultimately funded by politicians - was ever going to proceed.



Their copious advertising online covering BusConnects, Metro and Dart expansion would beg to differ.



Shure you'd lash it up wouldn't you and we'd have Darts to everywhere in no time... Government has only recently instructed (by saying it would fund) to proceed with Maynooth as a priority, likely having been advised that this was easier and more sensible to implement in priority to the Northern Line by the NTA.



This is just hilarious. Do you actually have an idea of the scope of what the NTA is charged with doing/what it can actually do? Do you really think they can go off and develop their own pet projects, independent of Government, and just crack on and break ground?



Jaysis I would never have guessed...



So the public are angry that the NTA haven't been quicker in delivering projects despite being hamstrung by the fact that they cannot proceed any quicker than the the politicians, the planners and the law allows?

In fact, it's public perception and the public's local councillors that are responsible and will be responsible for future delays in these projects.

But hey let's just blame the NTA...



:pac::pac:

So if you were in charge of the NTA, you'd just;

1. Ignore statutory remit of the NTA
2. Ignore public
3. Complete all projects without proper planning and without any funding

Yeah that'll go down well.

It's reading posts like these that makes me think that we're not far away from some sort of Brexit like insanity in this country.

Yeah your dead right buddy. I can see this discussion only going one way so I will say enjoy your opinion. Best of luck.

thomasj

Standing on the quays since 10.30pm waiting on a 39a, as of 11.10pm still waiting and in that time a 37, 39 and 39A have passed full.

I really hope busconnects have something magical up their sleeve because if they done it's completely pointless for nights like this.

Edit:Just got on one now at 11.20pm, a 50 minute wait tonight.

edit:And whatever's going on this week the 11.30 39/a departures from ongar only left just before midnight tonight

salmocab

thomasj wrote: »

Standing on the quays since 10.30pm waiting on a 39a, as of 11.10pm still waiting and in that time a 37, 39 and 39A have passed full.

I really hope busconnects have something magical up their sleeve because if they done it's completely pointless for nights like this.

Edit:Just got on one now at 11.20pm, a 50 minute wait tonight.

edit:And whatever's going on this week the 11.30 39/a departures from ongar only left just before midnight tonight

To be fair there was a match on in the Aviva so there would have been abnormal levels of people around.

machaseh

thomasj wrote: »

Standing on the quays since 10.30pm waiting on a 39a, as of 11.10pm still waiting and in that time a 37, 39 and 39A have passed full.

I really hope busconnects have something magical up their sleeve because if they done it's completely pointless for nights like this.

Edit:Just got on one now at 11.20pm, a 50 minute wait tonight.

edit:And whatever's going on this week the 11.30 39/a departures from ongar only left just before midnight tonight

That's abysmal. They should have built the LUAS all the way to blanch town centre from the start.

cherryghost

thomasj wrote: »

Standing on the quays since 10.30pm waiting on a 39a, as of 11.10pm still waiting and in that time a 37, 39 and 39A have passed full.

I really hope busconnects have something magical up their sleeve because if they done it's completely pointless for nights like this.

Edit:Just got on one now at 11.20pm, a 50 minute wait tonight.

edit:And whatever's going on this week the 11.30 39/a departures from ongar only left just before midnight tonight

'Waiting for the 39A'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVjnBo96Ug

BonnieSituation

machaseh wrote: »

That's abysmal. They should have built the LUAS all the way to blanch town centre from the start.

Imagine how interminable that journey would be. Nope.

Qrt

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine how interminable that journey would be. Nope.

The DART should help a fair bit once it gets out that way. Couple that with the planned circulator bus routes.

fly_agaric

thomasj wrote: »

Standing on the quays since 10.30pm waiting on a 39a, as of 11.10pm still waiting and in that time a 37, 39 and 39A have passed full.

I really hope busconnects have something magical up their sleeve because if they done it's completely pointless for nights like this.

Edit:Just got on one now at 11.20pm, a 50 minute wait tonight.

edit:And whatever's going on this week the 11.30 39/a departures from ongar only left just before midnight tonight

That's bad. Had noticed these routes seem to be pretty much at breaking point now during rush hours esp. on a wet day or the likes. The frequencies are quite high (higher than what seems to be in Busconnects plan for the "spine" if I read it right?). The busses are often packed full leaving the city centre in evening + Blanch in morning and can't pick up any more people en route.

They could always put some racks on the sides of the busses for people to hang on ala India or Pakistan to deal with the next 5-10 years of growth with no new transport infrastructure:pac:. Traffic will be so seized up and chaotic anyway it will likely be safe enough.
Of course the annual pass for huffing your fellow commuter's armpit on the sweatbox each morning (...seats, you should be so lucky!) is going up by the standard few % next year...

I'm not a bitter little "bus wanker", no siree!

machaseh

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine how interminable that journey would be. Nope.

Uhm what are you on about buddy?

From town to Brides Glen is about 17 km by luas and takes about 1 hour. Blanch to town is only about 11 kms so it would take much less time.

BonnieSituation

machaseh wrote: »

Uhm what are you on about buddy?

From town to Brides Glen is about 17 km by luas and takes about 1 hour. Blanch to town is only about 11 kms so it would take much less time.

Two things, buddy, you're under some impression that that 11km will be done in its most direct fashion. It won't, it'll go around the houses.


Secondly, pal, just because we have tram lines of a length that we do doesn't mean we need to keep building more or extending what we have.

machaseh

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Two things, buddy, you're under some impression that that 11km will be done in its most direct fashion. It won't, it'll go around the houses.

Don't think so now buddy. It would most likely be an extension from Broombridge to Blanchardstown Centre, possibly even further than that into D15 at a later point. For most of this route, a more or less direct route should be no problem, paralel to the existing tracks.

https://imgur.com/a/5mEcM1i

Secondly, pal, just because we have tram lines of a length that we do doesn't mean we need to keep building more or extending what we have.

What kind of argument is this? Do you think the tracks to Brides Glen shouldn't have been built? Heck, they are even considering extending that all the way to Bray.

Qrt

machaseh wrote: »

Don't think so now buddy. It would most likely be an extension from Broombridge to Blanchardstown Centre, possibly even further than that into D15 at a later point. For most of this route, a more or less direct route should be no problem, paralel to the existing tracks.

https://imgur.com/a/5mEcM1i


What kind of argument is this? Do you think the tracks to Brides Glen shouldn't have been built? Heck, they are even considering extending that all the way to Bray.

The Green Line struggles as is, I can’t imagine sticking Blanch on the end of it as well. Besides, we know the next extension will be the Fingluas, not Blanch.

Once the DART is up and running in the south Blanch area, high frequency local buses should ease the bus congestion.

machaseh

Qrt wrote: »

The Green Line struggles as is, I can’t imagine sticking Blanch on the end of it as well. Besides, we know the next extension will be the Fingluas, not Blanch.

They could run extra trams between Blanch and Parnell only. Of course a turn around facility would have to be made at Parnell, but that wouldn't require more than an extra loop of tracks. The portion of the green line that is struggling the most is Sandyfort - St Stephens green, not the portion between town and broombridge.

And of course an extension to finglas would be most welcome as well. Why not both.

Once the DART is up and running in the south Blanch area, high frequency local buses should ease the bus congestion.

Yes, but people prefer direct connections, so I dont think extending the luas should be discounted. Also the luas brings you directly into town, while with the dart you would have to walk from Conolly Station into town.

Dravokivich

I think most folks using the train on that line are looking to get about Connolly, tara or pearse. Where a lot of offices are in the city. Hence why there may be less usage in that section of the green line.

machaseh

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think most folks using the train on that line are looking to get about Connolly, tara or pearse. Where a lot of offices are in the city. Hence why there may be less usage in that section of the green line.

Those people would already be using the train right now rather than the 38/39 buses right?

BonnieSituation

machaseh wrote: »

Don't think so now buddy. It would most likely be an extension from Broombridge to Blanchardstown Centre, possibly even further than that into D15 at a later point. For most of this route, a more or less direct route should be no problem, paralel to the existing tracks.

https://imgur.com/a/5mEcM1i

Why would you replicate the current heavy rail line all the way to around the area of Castleknock Station? And as I said, just because you can have a more direct route, you won't necessarily get a more direct route.

A nonsense suggestion. Especially seeing as it's barely even on a napkin never mind a drawing board.

What kind of argument is this? Do you think the tracks to Brides Glen shouldn't have been built? Heck, they are even considering extending that all the way to Bray.

What?

gjim

machaseh wrote: »

Do you think the tracks to Brides Glen shouldn't have been built? Heck, they are even considering extending that all the way to Bray.

I think you can make a strong argument that those tracks should not have been built. Or at least not for a while.

The most pressing issue for Dublin is getting people in and out of the city centre and adding outer extensions represents a diversion of resources away from addressing this problem. In fact it just makes matters worse for people who live closer to town as the line is already at capacity - these people get displaced and are forced to look to other modes even though there's a tram line running right through their neighbourhood. The result is little overall improvement.

Then there's the way the extension was designed: the wriggly bit "south" of Sandford will never be compatible with upgrading to metro without enourmous expense given it's at-grade interaction with traffic. The idea of using trams for hour+ long commutes from outer suburbs is frankly bizzare.

I'd much rather they had used the resources to build half the amount of tracks in terms of km but built a line that traversed the city centre - instead of passing through countryside and green fields 20km away from where the demand is most pressing. This would have benefitted everyone struggling to get around Dublin - the Bride's Glen extension improves things for relatively few commuters.

machaseh

gjim wrote: »

I think you can make a strong argument that those tracks should not have been built. Or at least not for a while.

The most pressing issue for Dublin is getting people in and out of the city centre and adding outer extensions represents a diversion of resources away from addressing this problem. In fact it just makes matters worse for people who live closer to town as the line is already at capacity - these people get displaced and are forced to look to other modes even though there's a tram line running right through their neighbourhood. The result is little overall improvement.

Then there's the way the extension was designed: the wriggly bit "south" of Sandford will never be compatible with upgrading to metro without enourmous expense given it's at-grade interaction with traffic. The idea of using trams for hour+ long commutes from outer suburbs is frankly bizzare.

I'd much rather they had used the resources to build half the amount of tracks in terms of km but built a line that traversed the city centre - instead of passing through countryside and green fields 20km away from where the demand is most pressing. This would have benefitted everyone struggling to get around Dublin - the Bride's Glen extension improves things for relatively few commuters.

What a ridiculous notion. I personally use the luas all the way to brides glen every single day, and many many other commuters do so too. Central Park luas stop is even MORE busy with commuters every single day. The entire area around this southernmost portion of the green luas is currently undergoing development, building housing and office space outside the city center which will make commutes much less one-directional.

Not only is your notion ridiculous, it is also irrelevant as the thing is already there anyway. What do you want them to do tear it down ?!

gjim

machaseh wrote: »

What a ridiculous notion. I personally use the luas all the way to brides glen every single day, and many many other commuters do so too. Central Park luas stop is even MORE busy with commuters every single day. The entire area around this southernmost portion of the green luas is currently undergoing development, building housing and office space outside the city center which will make commutes much less one-directional.

Not only is your notion ridiculous, it is also irrelevant as the thing is already there anyway. What do you want them to do tear it down ?!

You asked "should it have been built" and I said "no I don't think so" and gave my reasons why. Nobody said anything about tearing anything down.

Now I'm sure it's great having a Luas outside your door but looking at the PT needs of Dublin as a whole, no rational evaluation would have put building the extension to Bride's Glen ahead of providing more rail capacity traversing the city centre.

machaseh

gjim wrote: »

You asked "should it have been built" and I said "no I don't think so" and gave my reasons why. Nobody said anything about tearing anything down.

Now I'm sure it's great having a Luas outside your door but looking at the PT needs of Dublin as a whole, no rational evaluation would have put building the extension to Bride's Glen ahead of providing more rail capacity traversing the city centre.

It was not built in the place with the greatest public transportation crisis/needs no, but it was built in a place where it could be built relatively cheaply. So perhaps the cost per passenger made it very attractive to build it there, rather than for example a luas to Rathfarnham, which might be more needed but also way more expensive due to the fact that the area is already built up.