BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

donvito99

machaseh wrote: »

It was not built in the place with the greatest public transportation crisis/needs no, but it was built in a place where it could be built relatively cheaply. So perhaps the cost per passenger made it very attractive to build it there, rather than for example a luas to Rathfarnham, which might be more needed but also way more expensive due to the fact that the area is already built up.

It was built because developers were prepared to pay towards it.

The Luas should not have diverged from the old alignment. You only need to look at a satellite image to see that the deserving area, but for the developer throwing a few quid in, was Foxrock/Carrickmines - massively dense and established areas. Another park and ride would also be possible at M50 junction 15 (made possible by the fact that a non-Cherrywood alignment would be able to accommodate high capacity Metro trains).

Basically, we need to stop extending tram routes to crazy distances e.g. Citywest, Cherrywood.

Kermit.de.frog

By the time all those houses and apartments are built at Cherrywood nobody will be able to get a Luas from Dundrum in the morning as they will all be full.

Shedite27

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

By the time all those houses and apartments are built at Cherrywood nobody will be able to get a Luas from Dundrum in the morning as they will all be full.

It's different commutes now tho, there's as many people going from town to Cherrywood as there is the other way. There's a lot of housing and office locations along the route so a lot of people going 8-10 stops and then being replaced.

donvito99

Shedite27 wrote: »

there's as many people going from town to Cherrywood as there is the other way.

I doubt this.

I can get on an outbound Luas but I cannot get on an inbound Luas.

In all likelihood I would have a better chance of getting on an inbound Metro, even if it originated near Bray.

hmmm

donvito99 wrote: »

Basically, we need to stop extending tram routes to crazy distances e.g. Citywest, Cherrywood.

Cherrywood is completely nuts. Because we're unwilling to build height in the city centre, we are building this vast new town full of high-rise apartments far on the outskirts, and a large amount of the people in this area are going to need public transport to get to their jobs an hour away in the city centre. This is going to mean full trams by the time they reach Sandyford and further North, and limited capacity to upgrade the line while keeping the SUV drivers of Ranelagh happy.

Absolute and complete madness.

machaseh

hmmm wrote: »

Cherrywood is completely nuts. Because we're unwilling to build height in the city centre, we are building this vast new town full of high-rise apartments far on the outskirts, and a large amount of the people in this area are going to need public transport to get to their jobs an hour away in the city centre. This is going to mean full trams by the time they reach Sandyford and further North, and limited capacity to upgrade the line while keeping the SUV drivers of Ranelagh happy.

Absolute and complete madness.

Just building a luas to places like Rathfarnham would solve a lot of those capacity problems roo. The Luas is a more attractive means of transportation than the bus, and thus has a higher catchment area. Some people currently taking the green line would take a new line to Rathfarnham instead.

LeinsterDub

machaseh wrote: »

Just building a luas to places like Rathfarnham would solve a lot of those capacity problems roo. The Luas is a more attractive means of transportation than the bus, and thus has a higher catchment area. Some people currently taking the green line would take a new line to Rathfarnham instead.

The alignment was found not to be feasible. Luas/Metro isn't a silver bullet and even if it was your talking decades before it's all built and guess what! You'd still need bus

Shedite27

donvito99 wrote: »

I doubt this.

I can get on an outbound Luas but I cannot get on an inbound Luas.

In all likelihood I would have a better chance of getting on an inbound Metro, even if it originated near Bray.

That's not what I (was trying to) say, there's as many people getting off in Cherrywood every morning as there is getting on in Cherrywood. In time, Cherrywood will become a destination for rush hour as much as a departure. At the moment the Green line is very heavily weighted one way, inbound in the morning, outbound in the evening.

machaseh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The alignment was found not to be feasible. Luas/Metro isn't a silver bullet and even if it was your talking decades before it's all built and guess what! You'd still need bus

A LUAS to rathfarnham would make some dublin bus routes obsolete and would make many dublin bus routes be able to cope with a much lower frequency (think of 15, 16 and 17 series on the southside), so that these buses can be used to serve other areas.

I am not sure what you mean with 'alignment was found not to be feasible', you'd have to elaborate on that.

donvito99

machaseh wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean with 'alignment was found not to be feasible', you'd have to elaborate on that.

The RPA report on the proposed line determined it not to be feasible i.e. it wouldn't carry enough people to justify the outlay.

LeinsterDub

machaseh wrote: »

A LUAS to rathfarnham would make some dublin bus routes obsolete and would make many dublin bus routes be able to cope with a much lower frequency (think of 15, 16 and 17 series on the southside), so that these buses can be used to serve other areas.

I am not sure what you mean with 'alignment was found not to be feasible', you'd have to elaborate on that.

Ok here the lists of projects to be considered in no particular order
Metro Link
Rolling stock for the current rail network
Dart Expansion
Dart Underground
Luas Expansion Dublin
Luas Cork
Luas Galway
Luas Limerick
Cork Commuter rail improvements
Bus Connects Dublin
Bus Connects Waterford
Bus Connects Cork
Bus Connects Galway
Cycling Dublin
Cycling Cork
Cycling Galway
Cycling Limerick
Cycling every major town in Ireland
Quad tracking the Dublin coast line
Bypassing the Greystones tunnel
.....
......
........ etc

And then maybe Rathfarnham Luas


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/proposed-luas-line-would-not-meet-running-cost-1.919741

hmmm

donvito99 wrote: »

The RPA report on the proposed line determined it not to be feasible i.e. it wouldn't carry enough people to justify the outlay.

In the current planning regime, there is no point in us building LUAS to any existing suburb. The expense can only be justified if these areas are transformed into much higher-density suburbs, and the NIMBY-brigade will put a stop to that - you can't be building Manhattan-like 3 and 4-story apartment blocks within walking distance of Grafton street because that would ruin the country village feel of the inner-city suburbs.

If on the other hand we get a grip on planning, and are able to force through planning laws which allow for high-density building in pre-existing areas, then a LUAS becomes more feasible.

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

In the current planning regime, there is no point in us building LUAS to any existing suburb. The expense can only be justified if these areas are transformed into much higher-density suburbs, and the NIMBY-brigade will put a stop to that - you can't be building Manhattan-like 3 and 4-story apartment blocks within walking distance of Grafton street because that would ruin the country village feel of the inner-city suburbs.

If on the other hand we get a grip on planning, and are able to force through planning laws which allow for high-density building in pre-existing areas, then a LUAS becomes more feasible.

The NTA have deemed 4 extension feasible Bray, Lucan, Finglas and Poolbeg.

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The NTA have deemed 4 extension feasible Bray, Lucan, Finglas and Poolbeg.

Which are all areas either currently building higher density housing, or with the capacity to be able to.

That said, anything going as far as Bray or Lucan needs to be Metro-standard, not Luas.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Which are all areas either currently building higher density housing, or with the capacity to be able to.

That said, anything going as far as Bray or Lucan needs to be Metro-standard, not Luas.

Lucan will be between 2 DART lines , a Luas will have enough capacity.

Bray to Sandyford should be Metro-standard, even if it runs as a Luas initially

machaseh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Lucan will be between 2 DART lines , a Luas will have enough capacity.

Bray to Sandyford should be Metro-standard, even if it runs as a Luas initially

I really don't think they are going to expand the already existing brides glen - sandyford line into metro standard. LUAS it is.

Keep in mind that hardly anybody would take LUAS all the way from Bray into town if they can also just take the DART. It would mostly be used to travel to say Dundrum.

People can and do use Brides Glen - town all the way. I personally do so every single day for example and the number of people is only going to grow as cherrywood campus and other developments in the area are being finished.

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Lucan will be between 2 DART lines , a Luas will have enough capacity.

Bray to Sandyford should be Metro-standard, even if it runs as a Luas initially

My concerns about Lucan being a Luas are not about capacity, it's about speed. If they can guarantee a fully-segregated line, with the future potential for automation, then I guess a Luas would work (although I suppose that would also be what I would vaguely describe as "Metro standard" anyway!).

The main problem with the logical Luas Lucan running route is that it's largely through undeveloped and undevelop-able land in order to get to a location that can be heavily developed.

MJohnston

machaseh wrote: »

I really don't think they are going to expand the already existing brides glen - sandyford line into metro standard. LUAS it is.

Keep in mind that hardly anybody would take LUAS all the way from Bray into town if they can also just take the DART. It would mostly be used to travel to say Dundrum.

People can and do use Brides Glen - town all the way. I personally do so every single day for example and the number of people is only going to grow as cherrywood campus and other developments in the area are being finished.

We have to decentralise office hotspots within Dublin, and Sandyford is the perfect place to do so. That means, however, that people are going to want to travel orbitally much more than they do right now. Which is why it's going to be important to create orbital connections between rapid transit systems like DART and Metro/Luas.

Bray to Sandyford passenger numbers could become significant over the next few years, and an eventual Bride's Glen to Bray extension could certainly help with that. Imo it's impossible for that to work without Sandyford to the city becoming Metro standard, however - this would allow Sandyford to Bray to operate as a separate line, freeing it up from the capacity and frequency constraints imposed by traversing the city centre.

machaseh

MJohnston wrote: »

We have to decentralise office hotspots within Dublin, and Sandyford is the perfect place to do so. That means, however, that people are going to want to travel orbitally much more than they do right now. Which is why it's going to be important to create orbital connections between rapid transit systems like DART and Metro/Luas.

Bray to Sandyford passenger numbers could become significant over the next few years, and an eventual Bride's Glen to Bray extension could certainly help with that. Imo it's impossible for that to work without Sandyford to the city becoming Metro standard, however - this would allow Sandyford to Bray to operate as a separate line, freeing it up from the capacity and frequency constraints imposed by traversing the city centre.

Yes ideally sandyford to town would become metro standard, but not if it means that the line will be closed for 2-3 years while they're working on it. That would be absolutely unacceptable.

An alternative to metro standard would be to add a third track in the middle, so you can run expres trams that don't stop between sandyford and town (or maybe at one or two points in between).

As for orbital connections, those are exactly the type of connections for which Dublin Bus can be made much more useful. We would see places like Sandyford, Central Park and Cherryword becoming small bus hubs for the Southside.

tom1ie

machaseh wrote: »

Just building a luas to places like Rathfarnham would solve a lot of those capacity problems roo. The Luas is a more attractive means of transportation than the bus, and thus has a higher catchment area. Some people currently taking the green line would take a new line to Rathfarnham instead.

There is no road space for a luas to Rathfarnham. If busses were segregated from ordinary traffic that would be ideal, however this will never happen due to the likes of community not corridor etc.
so that leaves one option remaining. A metro. Which we don’t have money for.

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The NTA have deemed 4 extension feasible Bray, Lucan, Finglas and Poolbeg.

Which does nothing for Dublin sw.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Which does nothing for Dublin sw.

So what ? Take a number . Lots of other project miles a head of it

tom1ie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So what ? Take a number . Lots of other project miles a head of it

So we just go ahead and neglect an area of the city with the worst public transport options and public transport system.
How’s that reasonable?

MJohnston

tom1ie wrote: »

So we just go ahead and neglect an area of the city with the worst public transport options and public transport system.
How’s that reasonable?

Because that part of the city has much less chance of future development, and it's fairly low-density as it is.

It's also a part of the city that's only possible to supply with rapid transport by using an entirely underground system.

tom1ie

MJohnston wrote: »

Because that part of the city has much less chance of future development, and it's fairly low-density as it is.

It's also a part of the city that's only possible to supply with rapid transport by using an entirely underground system.

Yes but pt is supposed to service the needs of the public that live in the city. Dublin sw is a traffic black spot that has to be fixed regardless of how many more people we can jam into the area.
This idea of only looking after areas that will turn into high density areas at the detriment of established medium density areas (plenty of houses in knocklyon, ballyboden/firhouse, stocking lane have been and are being constructed) is crazy. We can’t just allow this traffic black spot to continue as is and most likely get worse.

machaseh

MJohnston wrote: »

Because that part of the city has much less chance of future development, and it's fairly low-density as it is.

It's also a part of the city that's only possible to supply with rapid transport by using an entirely underground system.

'Only possible with underground' that is bollocks. Yes you may have to sacrifice some road space or even bus lanes and perhaps even a limited number of houses for a LUAS to Rathfarnham but it is entirely feasible. Internationally, many similar density areas are served with trams.

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

So we just go ahead and neglect an area of the city with the worst public transport options and public transport system.
How’s that reasonable?

Because it's some where around 20th in the queue

LeinsterDub

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes but pt is supposed to service the needs of the public that live in the city. Dublin sw is a traffic black spot that has to be fixed regardless of how many more people we can jam into the area.
This idea of only looking after areas that will turn into high density areas at the detriment of established medium density areas (plenty of houses in knocklyon, ballyboden/firhouse, stocking lane have been and are being constructed) is crazy. We can’t just allow this traffic black spot to continue as is and most likely get worse.

The city is a traffic black spot at this point . You're being unbelievably selfish

MJohnston

machaseh wrote: »

'Only possible with underground' that is bollocks. Yes you may have to sacrifice some road space or even bus lanes and perhaps even a limited number of houses for a LUAS to Rathfarnham but it is entirely feasible. Internationally, many similar density areas are served with trams.

An at-grade Luas (Luas isn't an acronym btw, no need to capitalise it!) to Rathfarnham might be possible, with extreme cost, but it would be far from desirable. At-grade running for Luas should be avoided at all costs. I think the expense required to make an it happen in the south-west of the city would actually greatly outweigh the costs of a Metro tunnel from SSG.

trellheim

Going under could be replaced with an elevated solution - remember LUAS on stilts