BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

A whopping 2 whole years behind programme optimistically speaking

Was there ever a set schedule for the bus corridors?

BeerNut

Alkers wrote: »

Has anyone noticed any amendments to the plans yet and where these have been highlighted?

All of the planned CPO from my stretch of the Kimmage route is gone. There's no note on the map to say it's a change though.

Alkers

BeerNut wrote: »

All of the planned CPO from my stretch of the Kimmage route is gone. There's no note on the map to say it's a change though.

Have you got a link? The drawing where we are is the exact same as before, our garden is covered by a heavy dashed line which says land take may be required.

BeerNut

Page 19 of the new one vs page 29 of the old one.

Alkers

BeerNut wrote: »

Page 19 of the new one vs page 29 of the old one.

Thanks, I don't think they were up earlier!

cherryghost

Crumlin road looks a bit of a mess now, flapping in and out of dedicated bus/bike lanes

Alkers

cherryghost wrote: »

Crumlin road looks a bit of a mess now, flapping in and out of dedicated bus/bike lanes

YEs and a bit frustrationg that they haven't managed to fit in cycle lanes there with the move from 4 lanes to 3 lanes.

alentejo

Initial glance at new plans - awful - as cyclist, bus user and driver - Just cant get excited about this piecemeal plan.

cgcsb

Almost 2 years since busconnects was announced and the goal is to lodge a planning application in December. �� 2.5 years after consultation began. Not only that but none of the goals of busconnects have been achieved.

Intrgrated ticketing for example (this was actually promised in 2009 when leap stsrted), 11 years and we still have many fare structures and some dont make any sense.

No routes changed

None of the hubs even in planning.

All we've had is talk. The next government might have a look at how public projects are procured because this is a lengthy farce.

fly_agaric

Not as engaged as most here but RTE told me this morning this is the "2nd" public consultation on this busconnects project. Could have sworn it was the third?
Anyway, it keeps people in NTA busy and talking about & planning this stuff is much easier, cheaper and politically safer than actually doing it.

The costs to the city of these delays are likely gigantic of course but much more work to quantify than adding up the numbers in the govt.'s public transport infrastructure spend. Given pace of development in Dublin the initial reports that kicked it all off will all be pretty stale and mildewed by the time they actually try and implement something so perhaps they'll need to start over again (under a new minister & government)! :pac:

L1011

Second consultation on corridors. There was another on network redesign

cgcsb

This is the 4th consultation, 2 on the routes and 2 on the physical infrastructure. China laughs then scratches it's head. It'll be at least three years since initial consultation started before anything actually happens under the current 'revised' schedule. When i say anything I mean an actual goal, change of routes, building of a corridor, introduction of integrated ticketing etc. Filling in more forms isn't a 'thing'. People need action, across the board not just in transport but the state seems to have paralyzed it's self.

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

Second consultation on corridors. There was another on network redesign

Without doubt, like metrolink there'll be another, perhaps the specific location of a manhole cover, that'll add at least 6 months to programme.

AlmightyCushion

cgcsb wrote: »

Without doubt, like metrolink there'll be another, perhaps the specific location of a manhole cover, that'll add at least 6 months to programme.

There is actually a public consultation over a ventilation shaft currently going on. It's a joke. No wonder it takes forever and costs a fortune to get anything done in this country.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

China laughs then scratches it's head.

People comparing progress on infrastructure projects to China is like a modern day Godwin's Law.

CatInABox

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

There is actually a public consultation over a ventilation shaft currently going on. It's a joke. No wonder it takes forever and costs a fortune to get anything done in this country.

These small consultations haven't delayed the Metrolink project at all, and in fact, as they remove the legal uncertainty surrounding the lack of consultation around the ventilatation shaft, it's most likely reduced the chance of a delay.

Consultations in Ireland must now comply with the Aarhus convention, and if they don't, then they open the project up to legal challenge. You can debate the merits of the Aarhus convention, but as far as I can see, the NTA have done really well with these consultations. Sure, I'd like everything to go faster, but even if we didn't have these consultations, we'd just be looking at a longer ABP process.

AlmightyCushion

CatInABox wrote: »

These small consultations haven't delayed the Metrolink project at all, and in fact, as they remove the legal uncertainty surrounding the lack of consultation around the ventilatation shaft, it's most likely reduced the chance of a delay.

Consultations in Ireland must now comply with the Aarhus convention, and if they don't, then they open the project up to legal challenge. You can debate the merits of the Aarhus convention, but as far as I can see, the NTA have done really well with these consultations. Sure, I'd like everything to go faster, but even if we didn't have these consultations, we'd just be looking at a longer ABP process.

How long has it been since the first public consultation on Metrolink? It must be 2 years now. The fact it hasn't delayed the project just means that they factored in all this consultation from the start, it doesn't mean that it is being done in a timely manner. I'm not advocating we rip up planning regulations and just steamroll these things through but surely it can be sped up. We've had years of talk and public consultations and they still haven't ended.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

People comparing progress on infrastructure projects to China is like a modern day Godwin's Law.

I'm not saying being another China would be a good thing, I'm saying if we could actually be a few mm closer to the way China does things that'd be great. I wouldn't want hospitals to be built in 3 days but if we could have a planning application together in under 3 years that'd be great. It's not a lot to ask really just a little bit more urgency and an acceptance that not every individuals opinion needs to be adhered to.

Podge_irl

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

How long has it been since the first public consultation on Metrolink? It must be 2 years now. The fact it hasn't delayed the project just means that they factored in all this consultation from the start, it doesn't mean that it is being done in a timely manner. I'm not advocating we rip up planning regulations and just steamroll these things through but surely it can be sped up. We've had years of talk and public consultations and they still haven't ended.

And you still have pressure groups loudly bemoaning the lack of consultation before these plans are rammed through.

cgcsb

CatInABox wrote: »

These small consultations haven't delayed the Metrolink project at all, and in fact, as they remove the legal uncertainty surrounding the lack of consultation around the ventilatation shaft, it's most likely reduced the chance of a delay.

Consultations in Ireland must now comply with the Aarhus convention, and if they don't, then they open the project up to legal challenge. You can debate the merits of the Aarhus convention, but as far as I can see, the NTA have done really well with these consultations. Sure, I'd like everything to go faster, but even if we didn't have these consultations, we'd just be looking at a longer ABP process.

It's not an Ireland only problem. Europe has paralyzed it's self with pen pushing and we can no longer innovate or get make timely progress as a result which is why we can no longer lead the world in any way.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not an Ireland only problem. Europe has paralyzed it's self with pen pushing and we can no longer innovate or get make timely progress as a result which is why we can no longer lead the world in any way.

And yet, regulation-free America has one of the worst infrastructural systems in the 1st world.

PhilOssophy

Yes, Ireland has a great history with knee-jerk reactions, lets start making more by not thinking things through or consulting with the public.
I think what people need to realise is that every change to traffic plan, be it a lane being reduced to 1-lane, a cycle lane added, etc all need to be considered for the impact on the traffic. No point putting in a bus lane if the bus is stuck in a 2-mile tailback up the road and can't get to it.
Do it right. But Ireland's objector culture has to change.

MJohnston

The problem isn't the planning system - it's that these projects are so infrequently funded by our government, and they tend to be restarted multiple times for political reasons.

Would we be as frustrated about Metrolink's consultation process if it was running in parallel with 2 or 3 other similar projects and if it hadn't been kicked back and forth by multiple governments? I'd wager absolutely not.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

And yet, regulation-free America has one of the worst infrastructural systems in the 1st world.

They're 2 extremes.

cgcsb

The majority of bus connects infrastructure doesn't require CPO, it's simply painting new street markings and moving kerb lines, DCC has the power to do this without applying for planning. Those sections could have started 3 years ago if the will was there. Then have consultations on the cpo related sections.

trellheim

And you still have pressure groups loudly bemoaning the lack of consultation before these plans are rammed through.

But it's true. There was apparently a consultation, at a residents estate get-together at Xmas I checked recently and no-one in a 100 house estate had gotten any notice or flyer on whatsapp or local FB , and our houses are < 10 yards from one of the busiest corridors which will have substantial private car amendments for the QBC , which we only noticed well after the consultation was nominally held

Personally I feel furious about it and have turned against it

Our feeling is that the consultation was held fast and loose just so they could hold it up in planning and say "oh look we did the consultation" .

I'm fully expecting the pile-on here from the "but you're mistaken" brigade, and honestly I could not give a toss - I'm telling you what happened, which was zero consultation in our area.

I live beside a railway. Six years ago a lot of work was done on said line and we got a chance to discuss it with and be fully informed . What happened ? Zero snags ( well just one, but the railway fixed it fairly quick) Well done IE. It is perfectly possible to do it right.

Night Falls

There is another round of public consultations and public information days for each corridor that were just announced yesterday, so to say that there was no consultation is aboslutely nonsense. Do you want a personal invite or something?

cgcsb

trellheim wrote: »

But it's true. There was apparently a consultation, at a residents estate get-together at Xmas I checked recently and no-one in a 100 house estate had gotten any notice or flyer on whatsapp or local FB , and our houses are < 10 yards from one of the busiest corridors which will have substantial private car amendments for the QBC , which we only noticed well after the consultation was nominally held

Personally I feel furious about it and have turned against it

Our feeling is that the consultation was held fast and loose just so they could hold it up in planning and say "oh look we did the consultation" .

I'm fully expecting the pile-on here from the "but you're mistaken" brigade, and honestly I could not give a toss - I'm telling you what happened, which was zero consultation in our area.

I live beside a railway. Six years ago a lot of work was done on said line and we got a chance to discuss it with and be fully informed . What happened ? Zero snags ( well just one, but the railway fixed it fairly quick) Well done IE. It is perfectly possible to do it right.

The public consultations were well publicised

MJohnston

trellheim wrote: »

But it's true. There was apparently a consultation, at a residents estate get-together at Xmas I checked recently and no-one in a 100 house estate had gotten any notice or flyer on whatsapp or local FB , and our houses are < 10 yards from one of the busiest corridors which will have substantial private car amendments for the QBC , which we only noticed well after the consultation was nominally held

Personally I feel furious about it and have turned against it

Our feeling is that the consultation was held fast and loose just so they could hold it up in planning and say "oh look we did the consultation" .

I'm fully expecting the pile-on here from the "but you're mistaken" brigade, and honestly I could not give a toss - I'm telling you what happened, which was zero consultation in our area.

I live beside a railway. Six years ago a lot of work was done on said line and we got a chance to discuss it with and be fully informed . What happened ? Zero snags ( well just one, but the railway fixed it fairly quick) Well done IE. It is perfectly possible to do it right.

Which consultation was held over Christmas?

Peregrine

MJohnston wrote: »

Which consultation was held over Christmas?

Network Redesign. Basically, nothing to do with the private car amendments and has absolutely no bearing on planning.

Ah, you know the one. The last of the three network consultations that there was no legal requirement for them to do at all. The one with all the leaflets and ads and was extended to allow more people to make submissions.

Yeah, that one. There was a lack of public consultation on that one, you see.