BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

MJohnston

One might also suggest that Cork's bus network is so reviled that political resistance might not play as much of a part there as it did in Dublin (where people hate Dublin Bus but love their own specific routes without trying to grasp why that might be)

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

One might also suggest that Cork's bus network is so reviled that political resistance might not play as much of a part there as it did in Dublin (where people hate Dublin Bus but love their own specific routes without trying to grasp why that might be)

A great point. There's a culture difference between the two. In Dublin in most areas the service provides a useful function most of the time, even if it is well below 1st world standards. I've used buses in Cork a couple of times over the years and they have improved but it does definitely seem like it's less of a service and more of a scheme to generate employment. Driver changes are frequent and can take as long as a typical journey for example, drivers seem unaware of other routes, or even their own at times.

bk

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, yes the bus services are night and day difference.

Bus services on most routes in Cork is so poor, it is hard to explain to people who live in Dublin and for the most part haven't experienced it.

Moving to Dublin twenty years ago, to an area in Dublin which happened to have a number of bus routes overlapping, so there is a bus by every 3 minutes or so and Double Deckers at that, was completely shocking for me at the time.

At the time buses in Cork were all overpacked single decker, often filthy dirty, full of graffiti and burned chairs, frequent breakdowns and one bus an hour if you were lucky.

In fairness it has improved since then, like Dublin, buses are now clean, modern, well maintained, reliable and we even have double deckers now again.

Frequencies have improved on some routes, but are still terrible on others. Officially they have improved on all routes, but reality on the ground is very different. For instance my parents route is supposed to be every 20 minutes, but in reality it comes about once an hour. To put this in context, they are just a 30 minute walk from the city!

I do wonder if the NTA are aware of how bad BE are at keeping to the schedules and frequencies. It feels like BE don't get the same attention and oversight as DB get.

I would defend the drivers in Cork and I have to say from my own interactions with them, most are lovely people, friendly and helpful. Yes, the pace of life is a bit slower in Cork and that has it's pros and cons. On the pro side, I've had drivers drive us home as we just missed the last bus, he was supposed to be going out of service and returning to the depot, but instead left us jump on and dropped us off on the way. Or drivers leaving three buggies on unfolded in the wheelchair bay. Since buses are so infrequent, they seem to try harder not to leave people stranded in the rain, etc. Which everyone appreciates.

I feel the issues are more of one of adequate funding, management, oversight, etc. In the end a driver can only drive the bus, route and schedule they are given. 2 out of 3 buses an hour missing sounds more like a higher level issue to me.

However you can see from a route like the 202, a decent level of service almost approaching DB level can be given in Cork. But unfortunately, most routes in Cork aren't like that. For those who don't know, the 202 serves the Apple campus. Apple made it clear to the powers that be, that they required a very good level of service if they were to continue to invest into and grow the Cork campus. So the 202 gets all the attention, at the expense of others I suspect. Not that I want the see the 202 get worse obviously, but I want the see all the other routes brought up to that level.

Part of the problem in Cork, is that the bus service is seen as just for students and the elderly who can't drive. Anyone with a job is expected to get a car and drive. It isn't really seen as being used for work commuting, the way it is in Dublin. It is a very different mindset.

I agree that you are likely to see much less objections from bus users in Cork to route changes. However on the flip side, you will likely see far more objections to any bus priority changes from the majority of Corkonians who drive.

Pete_Cavan

New branding might help to get people on-board (pun absolutely intended) with bus services in Cork. In Dublin, I feel there is a level of resentment towards the bus service but that is tempered by a "but shur where would we be without it" attitude. People see it as theirs and part of the fabric of the city. Would introducing "Bus Corcaigh" brand as part of the new network help at all? BE could continue to operate it or other operators could be given the opportunity to tender.

GT89

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

New branding might help to get people on-board (pun absolutely intended) with bus services in Cork. In Dublin, I feel there is a level of resentment towards the bus service but that is tempered by a "but shur where would we be without it" attitude. People see it as theirs and part of the fabric of the city. Would introducing "Bus Corcaigh" brand as part of the new network help at all? BE could continue to operate it or other operators could be given the opportunity to tender.

I can't see that happening as the NTA want all PSO services under the TFI brand and that includes DB and BE. They appear to want the same branding and livery on a nationwide basis rather than on a city by city basis.

Pixel Eater

GT89 wrote: »

I can't see that happening as the NTA want all PSO services under the TFI brand and that includes DB and BE. They appear to want the same branding and livery on a nationwide basis rather than on a city by city basis.

Yeah, I don't really understand why they're doing that. Doesn't really make sense to me.

GT89

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Yeah, I don't really understand why they're doing that. Doesn't really make sense to me.

NTA was originally meant to be DTA

AngryLips

They should just brand it Dublin Bus for the services in Cork as well, that way the locals will know superior service when they use it

Pixel Eater

GT89 wrote: »

NTA was originally meant to be DTA

As in Dublin Transport Authority? Okay but still doesn't explain why they want the brand the whole country the same.

GT89

Pixel Eater wrote: »

As in Dublin Transport Authority? Okay but still doesn't explain why they want the brand the whole country the same.

Yes. Well I suppose you could say that all services outside Dublin are branded the same with Bus Eireann. For example city services in Galway have the same livery as Limerick or Cork and when it was all CIE buses were the same in all cities including Dublin.

GT89

Citrus_8 wrote: »

Why would he care? He gets a contact, does the job, gets the money and leaves. If the government doesn't follow the study and his recommendations, it doesn't affect him. And he's smart enough to understand and not his or his recommendations are bad, but the objections are. He spoke about this previously, and compared Ireland to other countries, mentioning that in Ireland there was a lot political resistance. So that's Irish government's slowness, lack of motivation, Irish residents ignorance and selfishness, and lobbyists domination, and some local politicians stupidity (no respect, lying, incompetence and some arrogance) problem.

Apart all that, his initial plan and recommendations were good.

Hasn't Jarrett himself said that Dublin was not the city in which he got the worst or most amount of objections. And that pretty much everywhere he goes there are objections and a dislike and a misunderstanding of his plans. He admits that when he makes plans that they may inconvenience some people and some will not like them.

BTW I think the latest revised plans are quite good. And they strike a good balance between current network and the benefits of an an improved streamlined service.

Tomrota

cgcsb wrote: »

His original draft was very light on actual services provided and would have caused severe overcrowding. Not actually his fault per say because he had to use modelling assumptions from the NTA based on the 2011 census, by 2018 it was clear that growth of demand in Dublin was accelerating way beyond any 2011 base year forecast.

Also the original assumption was that there'd be integrated ticketing implemented in 2019. It is now 2021 and the network implementation is set to begin without any integrated ticketing available.

What’s the big delay with integrated ticketing? I mean this crap was being dealt with back in the 90’s and early 2000’s in other European cities. It’s so embarrassing. Is there any news on that?

cgcsb

Tomrota wrote: »

What’s the big delay with integrated ticketing? I mean this crap was being dealt with back in the 90’s and early 2000’s in other European cities. It’s so embarrassing. Is there any news on that?

Afaik zero progress. Rest of Europe had this done some time between the first world war and the 1960s. It was the UK that caight up in the 90s. It is a complete humiliation for official Ireland. The hard part to swallow is the state owns all the transport operators bar the luas operator which has been kept on tight contracts since it opened. Not like the UK with dozens of private operators in London alone.
What's worse is there isn't even integrated ticketing between different services by the same operator. You have to pay twice if you're changing buses with Dublin Bus.

Tomrota

cgcsb wrote: »

Afaik zero progress. Rest of Europe had this done some time between the first world war and the 1960s. It was the UK that caight up in the 90s. It is a complete humiliation for official Ireland. The hard part to swallow is the state owns all the transport operators bar the luas operator which has been kept on tight contracts since it opened. Not like the UK with dozens of private operators in London alone.
What's worse is there isn't even integrated ticketing between different services by the same operator. You have to pay twice if you're changing buses with Dublin Bus.

Absolute craziness. What have the NTA been doing the past few years? It’s really not that difficult.

If they actually wanted to increase public transport usage, integrated ticketing is a must. It’s not always that someone can take one bus or one mode of transport to get to their destination (workplace or college), and that shouldn’t come with financial penalty.

I don’t see how BusConnects can be justified without the integrated fare?

Citrus_8

GT89 wrote: »

Hasn't Jarrett himself said that Dublin was not the city in which he got the worst or most amount of objections. And that pretty much everywhere he goes there are objections and a dislike and a misunderstanding of his plans. He admits that when he makes plans that they may inconvenience some people and some will not like them.

BTW I think the latest revised plans are quite good. And they strike a good balance between current network and the benefits of an an improved streamlined service.

And by saying that he basically brought an attention that the government has never educated citizens on how the public transportation works. The number of objections doesn't show that plan is bad, it shows that citizens are proactive and they care, it also shows that local politicians are active, as well as lobbyists. Also, car drivers are very selfish in Ireland and don't want to share road space with public transport, cyclists and pedestrians. Objections is stubbornness and bot wanting for changes. I support objections, but only if they're with clear alternative suggestions - not just blind criticism and saying - it's all good, don't need changes which clearly isn't the case for public transport users.

So the idea to bring attention to number of objections is basically saying that Ireland hasn't been prepared for greener and more flexible mobility solutions.

Finding a balance and best to the most people is the key thing in organising PT. It's really very clear that Irish PT in cities is organised based on the US, but European standards (just look at routes when most of them go from outskirts to city centre - in this size city it's not normal). In most European capitals there's lots of orbital routes, not mostly spines as in Dublin. It's really inconvenient to go from Tallaght to Blanch. This is why people choose cars in M50 gets clogged. A new plan is a great alternative which brings so many more options to travel around city, especially for those who travel to work NOT in city centre.

I also think the newest version is good. Not best, but, considering lots of stupid objections, it's still a better route scheme comparing to what we have now.

punisher5112

Can someone explain how €55 million has been spent so far, there was a guy on the news today speaking about it and that basically we don't need what's planned and I suppose he doesn't want to lose part of his garden.

Now I don't know if that figure is real but of so..... €55 million

punisher5112

Seen a new hybrid out today going through the city with no plates...
Not very pleased with the rear white destination display, it was blinding it was so bright....
Orange or red on the rear is a better option.

They look very well have to say, wonder what driving is like.

SG 311 is back in Donnybrook parked up in shed, I guess it will be on the road very shortly.
Looks very bare on the front though as no branding and just db on the side between doors.

GT89

Tomrota wrote: »

Absolute craziness. What have the NTA been doing the past few years? It’s really not that difficult.

If they actually wanted to increase public transport usage, integrated ticketing is a must. It’s not always that someone can take one bus or one mode of transport to get to their destination (workplace or college), and that shouldn’t come with financial penalty.

I don’t see how BusConnects can be justified without the integrated fare?

I wonder are the operators holding up the introduction of a flat fare as most operators still rely heavily on farebox revenue as a substantial proportion of their total revenue.

cgcsb

Tomrota wrote: »

Absolute craziness. What have the NTA been doing the past few years? It’s really not that difficult.

If they actually wanted to increase public transport usage, integrated ticketing is a must. It’s not always that someone can take one bus or one mode of transport to get to their destination (workplace or college), and that shouldn’t come with financial penalty.

I don’t see how BusConnects can be justified without the integrated fare?

What they have been working on is an app that will allow you to use a virtual leap card on your phone or direct contactless payments by credit or debit card. but you'll still have to pay twice to change onto different mode or even to change onto another bus by the same operator.

They've also made progress on creating more uniform bus stops and have fiddled around with the bus livery. So basically cosmetic things that make basically no difference to the user.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

What they have been working on is an app that will allow you to use a virtual leap card on your phone or direct contactless payments by credit or debit card. but you'll still have to pay twice to change onto different mode or even to change onto another bus by the same operator.

They've also made progress on creating more uniform bus stops and have fiddled around with the bus livery. So basically cosmetic things that make basically no difference to the user.

Well they have also been working towards the 90 minute flat fare. Over the last few years they have been bringing the fare bands closer to being a flat fare. The child fare has already become a flat fare.

I think we would probably have had the 90 minute flat fare by now if it hadn't been for Covid and the massive impact that has had on the fare box and the need for the government to subsidise DB. Note that the usual yearly fare determinations were cancelled this year.

On the other hand, you would think this would be perfect time to introduce the 90 minute ticket when passenger numbers are low and the government are basically keeping DB afloat anyway.

BTW over the past few years they have also:
- Introduced 24/7 bus routes
- Increased the number of buses by at least 10%
- Greater frequency off peak and weekends
- Introducing plug-in hybrid buses

So a lot of great improvements for bus users.

GT89 wrote:

I wonder are the operators holding up the introduction of a flat fare as most operators still rely heavily on farebox revenue as a substantial proportion of their total revenue.

Not any more since Covid19, the government are keeping the PSO operators afloat to the tune of hundreds of millions over the past year.

I do wonder if this will have longterm change in the funding models of PSO services.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

Well they have also been working towards the 90 minute flat fare. Over the last few years they have been bringing the fare bands closer to being a flat fare. The child fare has already become a flat fare.

I think we would probably have had the 90 minute flat fare by now if it hadn't been for Covid and the massive impact that has had on the fare box and the need for the government to subsidise DB. Note that the usual yearly fare determinations were cancelled this year.

Hearing this years now, still hasn't happened though. Under bus connects it was to be launched in 2019, before covid, as part of the initial time line for roll out of the new network. It's now 2021 and no sign of it.

Leap was launched to much fanfare in 2009 with all the functionality of sellotaping 3 tickets together with promises of transition towards integration. Some progress was made in the following 4 years but then nothing. Leap card is now to be replaced by apps and contactless debit cards having failed to produce a truly integrated ticket in it's 12 year life(and counting).

bk wrote: »

BTW over the past few years they have also:
- Introduced 24/7 bus routes
- Increased the number of buses by at least 10%
- Greater frequency off peak and weekends
- Introducing plug-in hybrid buses

So a lot of great improvements for bus users.

Great but not really an integral part of BC.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

Hearing this years now, still hasn't happened though. Under bus connects it was to be launched in 2019, before covid, as part of the initial time line for roll out of the new network. It's now 2021 and no sign of it.

I don't remember any time line actually given for the 90 minute ticket.

Again though in fairness the issue of Covid and financing are a very understandable reason for delay IMO.

cgcsb wrote: »

Leap was launched to much fanfare in 2009 with all the functionality of sellotaping 3 tickets together with promises of transition towards integration. Some progress was made in the following 4 years but then nothing. Leap card is now to be replaced by apps and contactless debit cards having failed to produce a truly integrated ticket in it's 12 year life(and counting).

I agree completely. They tried layering technology on top of a fundamentally broken fare structure and operating environment. That never works.

cgcsb wrote: »

Great but not really an integral part of BC.

Increasing off peak and weekend frequencies was very much part of BC. It was a major point pushed by Walker.

Cleaner bus fleet is also a major part of BC.

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

Afaik zero progress. Rest of Europe had this done some time between the first world war and the 1960s. It was the UK that caight up in the 90s. It is a complete humiliation for official Ireland.

I doubt OI feels any humiliation at all over it.

GT89

cgcsb wrote: »

Afaik zero progress. Rest of Europe had this done some time between the first world war and the 1960s. It was the UK that caight up in the 90s. It is a complete humiliation for official Ireland. The hard part to swallow is the state owns all the transport operators bar the luas operator which has been kept on tight contracts since it opened. Not like the UK with dozens of private operators in London alone.
What's worse is there isn't even integrated ticketing between different services by the same operator. You have to pay twice if you're changing buses with Dublin Bus.

Only London has integrated ticketing but even at that Tube/Overground and Bus fares are different and not integrated. Buses in London are very cheap at £1.50 for unlimited travel on buses and trams for 90 minutes but the tube is a lot more expensive as it receives less subsidy I believe. That being said London is light years ahead of Dublin when it comes to contactless payments and driver interaction on buses. There are lots of bus operators in London but all are operating under contract with TFL.

Outside of London bus services in the UK are very poor and would be generally poorer than Dublin. Buses are all operated by different companies generally each area has a local monopoly with either Arriva, Stagecoach or First dominating tickets are not integrated and each operator sets their own fares. Also dwell times are poor although most operators do have contactless but you still have to interact with the driver and weekly tickets which are still very popular have to be bought from the driver rather than in newsagents or convenience stores before you board the bus. Buses are nearly all single door too.

There are some exceptions in the UK where bus services are run by the council and are good like Lothian in Edinburgh or NCT in Nottingham. But generally speaking I wouldn't be using the UK as a model to copy for operating public transport in Dublin.

We do have the Leap 90 discount in Dublin meaning a €1 discount if change within 90 minutes. This is helpful atm but I agree it does not go far enough.

cgcsb

GT89 wrote: »

Only London has integrated ticketing but even at that Tube/Overground and Bus fares are different and not integrated. Buses in London are very cheap at £1.50 for unlimited travel on buses and trams for 90 minutes but the tube is a lot more expensive as it receives less subsidy I believe. That being said London is light years ahead of Dublin when it comes to contactless payments and driver interaction on buses. There are lots of bus operators in London but all are operating under contract with TFL.

Outside of London bus services in the UK are very poor and would be generally poorer than Dublin. Buses are all operated by different companies generally each area has a local monopoly with either Arriva, Stagecoach or First dominating tickets are not integrated and each operator sets their own fares. Also dwell times are poor although most operators do have contactless but you still have to interact with the driver and weekly tickets which are still very popular have to be bought from the driver rather than in newsagents or convenience stores before you board the bus. Buses are nearly all single door too.

There are some exceptions in the UK where bus services are run by the council and are good like Lothian in Edinburgh or NCT in Nottingham. But generally speaking I wouldn't be using the UK as a model to copy for operating public transport in Dublin.

We do have the Leap 90 discount in Dublin meaning a €1 discount if change within 90 minutes. This is helpful atm but I agree it does not go far enough.

The UK would be the last example I'd want Ireland to follow for transport policy, it's an expensive mess that only ever seems to deteriorate. At least public transport has had a noticeable improvement in Ireland in the past decade, slow as progress might be it's definitely progress.

But historically Irish government bodies have been obsessed with aping the UK, why I don't know but I guess the civil service is ran by oul lads who still have post-colony-itus or they're not willing to google translate Danish or Dutch reports. This behaviour is continuing to some extent although now there is at least awareness of better practice on the mainland generally speaking.

I once went to a talk in the NTA about decarbonising transport, some heads from TFN (The Manchester equivalent of TFL) were there and some asked frankly ridiculous questions, basically they were border-line climate change deniers pointing out that some carbon is generated in the production of electricity for electric vehicles. These are the people delivering transport to the UK.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

The UK would be the last example I'd want Ireland to follow for transport policy, it's an expensive mess that only ever seems to deteriorate. At least public transport has had a noticeable improvement in Ireland in the past decade, slow as progress might be it's definitely progress.

It is interesting, when I first started on boards 20 years ago, it was to help campaign for better internet access and broadband in Ireland.

At the time we looked at what they had in the UK with jealousy.

Now we have actually surpassed them in many ways, with an overall more competitive market and we instead look to the Nordic countries for inspiration.

No one looks at the UK with jealousy about broadband anymore.

In many ways the UK is no longer the leader we should be following and to be honest, in many ways it is regressing pretty badly.

cgcsb wrote: »

But historically Irish government bodies have been obsessed with aping the UK, why I don't know but I guess the civil service is ran by oul lads who still have post-colony-itus or they're not willing to google translate Danish or Dutch reports. This behaviour is continuing to some extent although now there is at least awareness of better practice on the mainland generally speaking.

It some ways it is understandable. We obviously share a language, we share a close history in the companies involved and the technology and infrastructure used, drive on the same side of the road, companies we buy buses from, etc.

And yes, there is still probably a lot of psychological damage to our culture of looking up to the "mighty British empire".

But I do think a lot of that is starting to fall away and in particular with Brexit. I think there is a growing understanding that the British way of doing things in terms of public transport planning, housing, urban development, etc. are actually quiet poor and increasingly I think folks here are looking to mainland Europe for inspiration instead.

I think this could be really good for us.

cgcsb wrote: »

I once went to a talk in the NTA about decarbonising transport, some heads from TFN (The Manchester equivalent of TFL) were there and some asked frankly ridiculous questions, basically they were border-line climate change deniers pointing out that some carbon is generated in the production of electricity for electric vehicles. These are the people delivering transport to the UK.

Yikes! We you think about it the UK and US are very much cut from the same cloth.

markodaly

bk wrote: »

I agree that you are likely to see much less objections from bus users in Cork to route changes. However on the flip side, you will likely see far more objections to any bus priority changes from the majority of Corkonians who drive.

I can expect that there will be big plans to CPO peoples gardens to create these bus lanes, which will be absolutely needed, given that there are very little bus lanes available in Cork.

That will be a big big political football where the usual resident associations will band together and try and 'steer' the routes away from them.

GT89

bk wrote: »

In many ways the UK is no longer the leader we should be following and to be honest, in many ways it is regressing pretty badly.

I sort of agree but I still think the public transport in London is still vastly superior to our own in many ways although we are beginning to catch up. I often think when it comes to things like public transport Dublin looks to London and Cork looks to Dublin.

London has a public transport system which is on a par with all major European cities and possibly one of the better ones at that especially when it comes to ease of use and frequency. Bus services in Dublin are almost on a par with London especially in terms of frequency. But we lag behind in terms of flat fares, driver interaction and contactless payments.

The other thing about London buses is they keep to an even headway on high frequency routes which prevents bunching. This means if the bus gets too close to the bus in front the driver has to slow down or pull in and wait in order to maintain frequency.[/quote]

cgcsb

GT89 wrote: »

I sort of agree but I still think the public transport in London is still vastly superior to our own in many ways although we are beginning to catch up. I often think when it comes to things like public transport Dublin looks to London and Cork looks to Dublin.

London has a public transport system which is on a par with all major European cities and possibly one of the better ones at that especially when it comes to ease of use and frequency. Bus services in Dublin are almost on a par with London especially in terms of frequency. But we lag behind in terms of flat fares, driver interaction and contactless payments.

The other thing about London buses is they keep to an even headway on high frequency routes which prevents bunching. This means if the bus gets too close to the bus in front the driver has to slow down or pull in and wait in order to maintain frequency.

[/quote]

I'd have to disagree because:
- its very expensive to use compared to every other pt network in the world.
- there is a vast network of commuter rail operated by multiple separate companies, impossible to figure out and there doesn't even appear to be a definitive map of them. RER, Sbahn, Cercanais etc are all mapped, inter operable and with integrated tickets.
- the commuter rail all terminates at the main train station and passengers have to switch to the metro or surface transport there. Nothing at all like RER, Sbahn, Cercanais etc. Which all seen cross city lines built in the 70s
- frequency on the metro is low compared to the other large cities. Paris metro operates every 90seconds or thereabouts.
-bus priority in London is pretty poor
- they produced there's 'cycle super highways' s few years ago. And most of them are regular roads with general traffic, no cycle lanes and regular roundabouts but there's a signs at junctions saying 'cycle blue route' etc. A very silly thing indeed as if the goal were to just con people unfamiliar with the route to just get on their bike and go for a spin with some hgvs.

punisher5112

I would love to talk to any architect or engineer that are drawing up the plans and widths of bus stops and bus lanes as I've yet to come across any designed to accommodate an actual bus.....

Anyone know please let me know.