BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

orangerhyme

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why colours though when numbers work in nearly every other city.

For example the blue line might have 11, 17 16 or whatever but all on the blue line.

Stephen15

orangerhyme wrote: »

For example the blue line might have 11, 17 16 or whatever but all on the blue line.

Fair enough but my idea was to have colours aswell as numbers on LED displays. Most the times of seen this is in smaller cities so it might work better in likes of Cork, Galway or Limerick.

orangerhyme

yeah I think thats a good idea. The colour for simplicity and the number for specificity.

thomasj

Interestingly enough that route map seems to suggesting a return of the old 10 bus route and a merger of the northside 39A and southside 46A

Stephen15

On the subject of middle doors the buses which are less often operated by a GT or an SG the middle doors are almost never used I was on a GT today on the 63 which is usually operated by an AX or an EV and the middle door was not used once compare to the 46a or the 145 which is mostly operated by them and the middle is used at most stops.

Victor

Stephen15 wrote: »

Maybe a colour coded LED displays aswell like this one here. Common enough in some cities on the continent.

I would be slow to do this. Orange-red is much more vision-friendly than, say, green.

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote:

Maybe a colour coded LED displays aswell like this one here. Common enough in some cities on the continent.

I'd be fairly sure, the NDA might have an issue with this, there are people out there that are colour-blind.

Victor

thomasj wrote: »

Interestingly enough that route map seems to suggesting a return of the old 10 bus route and a merger of the northside 39A and southside 46A

It was specifically pointed out that there are no proposals at this time.

Bray Head

Stephen15 wrote: »

On the subject of middle doors the buses which are less often operated by a GT or an SG the middle doors are almost never used I was on a GT today on the 63 which is usually operated by an AX or an EV and the middle door was not used once compare to the 46a or the 145 which is mostly operated by them and the middle is used at most stops.

I have no idea what you mean.

Stephen15

Bray Head wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean.

That the middle door isin't used on routes that aren't often operated GTs/SGs.

orangerhyme

what are GTs and SGs?

Stephen15

orangerhyme wrote: »

what are GTs and SGs?

The two types of buses that have middle doors

LXFlyer

These pages explain the different vehicle types:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Fleet/

http://www.dublinbus.ie/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Fleet/Midi-Buses/

orangerhyme

Is the general consensus that every bus should have 2 doors, the front for entering and the back/middle for exiting?
This would surely speed things up.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

On the subject of middle doors the buses which are less often operated by a GT or an SG the middle doors are almost never used I was on a GT today on the 63 which is usually operated by an AX or an EV and the middle door was not used once compare to the 46a or the 145 which is mostly operated by them and the middle is used at most stops.

After a long time spent around the Irish Bus World,I am now of the opinion that the NTA policy on Centre Door specification is flawed.

Having both Driven & Conducted single and dual doored vehicles,I believe there is little or no tangible advantage to using centre doors within our current operational setup.

The reality,with current Vehicle Safety Specifications,is the use of Centre Doors entails a significant additional delay at each stop,with both Driver procedures and Mechanical operation causing delay.

(It should be noted that current NTA policy,calls for Centre Doors to be used at every stop-irrespective of whether a customer is alighting or not.)

Many appear to believe that use of the Centre Door is a simple button pushing excercise,but this fails to appreciate just how much additional preparation and observation is required each time the doors are utilised,this is in addition to monitoring the front doors.

CCTV and Mirrors do not guarantee safety,and many is the time I have been saved by simple sensation,as a headphone wearing,mobile phone wielding individualmakes a last second Leap for freedom,from the blind spot just behind the stairwell.

Added to this is the conditioning of our People,a significant number of whom will steadfastly ignore an open & clear centre door,in order to push their way through a line of boarding passengers at the front.

Short of employing a Psychologist on each Bus,I think the NTA will have to retrun to the drawing board on this.

Currently however,by far and away the most regressive and important issue is the reduction in capacity resulting from the Double Door specification.

Directly replacing a 76 seat AV/AX vehicle with a 64 seat SG on any given route will most certainly lead to capacity "issues" particularly at peak times.

In all of this I am factoring out the flip-down seats,and also leaving aside the Wheelchair Space/Buggy Space element.

Flip Down seats,as most Drivers will attest to,contribute far more to misunderstandings and disagreements over alleged "Priority" than they are worth,and it is little surprise that TfL policy in London is to remove them at Vehicle Overhaul,and not to specify them wherever possible on new orders.

The NTA really do need to spread their testing wings a bit further here,with,as a first step,the provision of a second remote validator for Prepaids and the fastracking of a Single Touch boarding principle.

A single Door AV/AX/EV/VG/VT would easily beat a GT/SG in Dwell Time if such a system were trialled (Note:the benefit would be based upon the Bus Capacity /Dwell Time average ove the entire route)

Single Door Large Capacity vehicles coupled with the projected Increase in Frequency on Corridor routes would provide significant and affordable benefits to the Majority of Bus Users...It all depends upon what is required...;)

Stephen15

thomasj wrote: »

I'd be fairly sure, the NDA might have an issue with this, there are people out there that are colour-blind.

Are there not already problems with the red and green line

thomasj

Stephen15 wrote: »

Are there not already problems with the red and green line

They don't apply colour coded displays on the luas and sure the red and green lines don't connect at the moment to cause confusion to colour-blind folk

brokenarms

I have been hopelessly trying to get passengers to use the middle doors.

Opening every stop (that I can open them safely at) and forcing the automated announcement several time during a journey.

Opening them first even with peeps queuing at the front waiting.. Even more since I read this thread .

Still nothing. No one uses them. 1 in 10 people. Unless the bus is jammed and they spill out.

Its quite frustrating really. Especially when I am running late. I must wait for 5 or 7 peeps to get out before I take fares. Having to manover the bus in perfect takes more time and effort, which is becoming a waste of time.

I think maybe its an Irish thing where you must thank the driver in person before getting out. I did get one guy who got out the middle, ran up the side of the bus and thanked me through the front !! I had to admire his spirit.

Maybe its the drivers, I dont know, but maybe a fresh advertising campaign would help. And getting rid completely of all buses without them.

LXFlyer

Until all drivers operate the centre doors at every stop, people will inevitably go to the front door out of habit.

The majority of drivers do not open the centre doors at every stop (most do at busy city centre stops), and as a result passengers will go to the front door out of sheer habit.

Work is needed on ensuring all stops are designed in a way that allows for safe operation - I've long advocated a full audit of all stops to ensure that they facilitate this (and this could include a review of whether stops should/could be merged).

If that were done, the union argument about safe centre door operation would be seriously diminished, and centre door operation would become the norm. Until then the Labour Court ruling that allows for driver discretion will dictate random operation.

Geuze

orangerhyme wrote: »

Hes a fascinating guy.
His basic philosophy is to have a high frequency network where changing buses isnt penalised by buying another ticket.
This will require a simplification of certain routes and also adding 2 or 3 high frequency orbital routes.
Also a cashless card based ticketing system will most likely be introduced.

I think there will be little change in Luas, DART or other rail systems in the next 10 years really so we need to bet big on the bus network.

If you can imagine the bus network will be like the London underground.
Whereby you know that a bus is always coming as its such a high frequency and you can get anywhere in the city with just one change.

Can I ask what are frequencies like today on the main bus routes in Dublin?

thomasj

brokenarms wrote: »

I have been hopelessly trying to get passengers to use the middle doors.

Opening every stop (that I can open them safely at) and forcing the automated announcement several time during a journey.

Opening them first even with peeps queuing at the front waiting.. Even more since I read this thread .

Still nothing. No one uses them. 1 in 10 people. Unless the bus is jammed and they spill out.

Its quite frustrating really. Especially when I am running late. I must wait for 5 or 7 peeps to get out before I take fares. Having to manover the bus in perfect takes more time and effort, which is becoming a waste of time.

I think maybe its an Irish thing where you must thank the driver in person before getting out. I did get one guy who got out the middle, ran up the side of the bus and thanked me through the front !! I had to admire his spirit.

Maybe its the drivers, I dont know, but maybe a fresh advertising campaign would help. And getting rid completely of all buses without them.

I think the issues here include force of habbit for passengers, the misalignment of the stairs with the centre doors and also the case that based on actions of drivers of previous journeys people may not wish to risk the middle doors in case it doesn't open and they miss their stop

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

Can I ask what are frequencies like today on the main bus routes in Dublin?

Look at www.dublinbus.ie for that - no one can give you a simple answer to that as it varies by route.

Dyr

brokenarms wrote: »

I have been hopelessly trying to get passengers to use the middle doors.

Opening every stop (that I can open them safely at) and forcing the automated announcement several time during a journey.

Opening them first even with peeps queuing at the front waiting.. Even more since I read this thread .

Still nothing. No one uses them. 1 in 10 people. Unless the bus is jammed and they spill out.

Its quite frustrating really. Especially when I am running late. I must wait for 5 or 7 peeps to get out before I take fares. Having to manover the bus in perfect takes more time and effort, which is becoming a waste of time.

I think maybe its an Irish thing where you must thank the driver in person before getting out. I did get one guy who got out the middle, ran up the side of the bus and thanked me through the front !! I had to admire his spirit.

Maybe its the drivers, I dont know, but maybe a fresh advertising campaign would help. And getting rid completely of all buses without them.

What route are you running?

Most the people i see will use the rear doors if they're available

the front doors tend to open first so people just don't risk walking towards the back in case the rears doors dont open

overcrowding is a problem too

It's very much a dublin problem, presumably due to the love affair with cash payment. other cities work systems without this nonsense

Geuze

lxflyer wrote: »

Look at www.dublinbus.ie for that - no one can give you a simple answer to that as it varies by route.

There is a map of the "high-frequency" network.

[Not on the DB website]

This define high frequency as very 15 mins or more at peak periods.

I would suggest that high frequency should be every 10 mins.

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

There is a map of the "high-frequency" network.

[Not on the DB website]

This define high frequency as very 15 mins or more at peak periods.

I would suggest that high frequency should be every 10 mins.

I meant look at the individual route timetables.

Stephen15

brokenarms wrote: »

I have been hopelessly trying to get passengers to use the middle doors.

Opening every stop (that I can open them safely at) and forcing the automated announcement several time during a journey.

Opening them first even with peeps queuing at the front waiting.. Even more since I read this thread .

Still nothing. No one uses them. 1 in 10 people. Unless the bus is jammed and they spill out.

Its quite frustrating really. Especially when I am running late. I must wait for 5 or 7 peeps to get out before I take fares. Having to manover the bus in perfect takes more time and effort, which is becoming a waste of time.

I think maybe its an Irish thing where you must thank the driver in person before getting out. I did get one guy who got out the middle, ran up the side of the bus and thanked me through the front !! I had to admire his spirit.

Maybe its the drivers, I dont know, but maybe a fresh advertising campaign would help. And getting rid completely of all buses without them.

Yeah most passengers do seem to use the front doors. The only ones who use them are passengers sitting downstairs beyond the middle doors. The middle doors on London buses are located parallel to the stairs so passengers coming down the stairs will the open middle doors and use them. I don't know why the NTA didn't buy buses of the same spec.

brokenarms

lxflyer wrote: »

Until all drivers operate the centre doors at every stop, people will inevitably go to the front door out of habit.

The majority of drivers do not open the centre doors at every stop (most do at busy city centre stops), and as a result passengers will go to the front door out of sheer habit.

Work is needed on ensuring all stops are designed in a way that allows for safe operation - I've long advocated a full audit of all stops to ensure that they facilitate this (and this could include a review of whether stops should/could be merged).

If that were done, the union argument about safe centre door operation would be seriously diminished, and centre door operation would become the norm. Until then the Labour Court ruling that allows for driver discretion will dictate random operation.

The unions are 100% right on the issue though. As it stands
The other scenario is:
Drivers must open middle doors at all times. But a stop is blocked by cars, another bus and so on. He must drive past that stop till he finds a bus stop that will facilitate safely opening both the doors. (which could be a mile down the road)

Could you imagine the fight that would take place on the bus.

There are some routes which suit the middle door operation like those up the Malahide road, but stops with a deep lay-by's for the bus to get off the road, do not suit the operation. Or streets with heavy parking and taxi traffic on it. It has to be a straight approach and exit. No lock to lock steering.

As has been said numerous times before, proper design with proper enforcement has to take place before any of this BusConnects planning can work. WHich,, in all honesty, will never happen here.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yeah most passengers do seem to use the front doors. The only ones who use them are passengers sitting downstairs beyond the middle doors. The middle doors on London buses are located parallel to the stairs so passengers coming down the stairs will the open middle doors and use them. I don't know why the NTA didn't buy buses of the same spec.

We buy them from Writebus up north. As does London. I cant see why that cant take place also. Maybe its money..

thomasj

I was on a 39A yesterday that had a validator that was broke/out-of-service

The end result was that everyone had to validate their leap card through the driver.

There was a noticable increase in the journey time because of this, especially given there was a large number of people getting on at Blanchardstown Centre (it was around 5.15 on a Sunday after all)

Shows how much a difference a cashless bus could make!

devnull

The reason I often go past middle doors is
a) the front ones open first
b) the middle doors often don't open
c) that I don't want to miss my stop

The constant blaming of passengers is tiresome, it's not a passenger problem.

bk

brokenarms wrote: »

I have been hopelessly trying to get passengers to use the middle doors.

Opening every stop (that I can open them safely at) and forcing the automated announcement several time during a journey.

brokenarms, thank you for making the effort to open the rear doors and encourage customers to use it.

However you have to see it from the customers perspective. From my experience, 90% of drivers never bother to open the rear door. So for them, you are the great exception, but far from the rule.

Most passengers are actually trying to do the right thing by heading to the front door before their stop so that they get off quickly and don't delay the bus. There is no point in them waiting at the rear door when they don't know that brokenarms is driving this bus and all the other buses they happen to be on, the driver almost never opens the rear door.

Consistency is important, if the rear door is opened at all stops on every bus, then people will get use to it and use it. But with so many drivers unfortunately refusing to do their job fully, then passengers will continue to do what is best given what most drivers do.

But honestly, thanks for making the effort and keep it up.