BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119071448#Comment_119071448

Just a typo I suspect

baingal nancer

They can put on all the extra buses they want on the N6 with Go Ahead wel still see loads of cancelled dailys services like the current 17a

LXFlyer

To be fair it’s not just happening on GAI.

Two departures in a row on the DB operated 15 were cancelled yesterday afternoon.

Hopefully the current recruitment campaigns will start to yield results sooner than later.

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090434#Comment_119090434

Its also worth mentioning that the N6 is shorter and “straighter” than the 17a, which means the chances of cancellations should be less, given reasonable layover time. The NTA might also put pressure on Go-Ahead to limit as many cancellations as possible, since the route will be “Bus-Connected”

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090527#Comment_119090527

The increase in frequency means that that the N6 has a similar peak vehicle requirement to the 17a, if not slightly higher, and thus requires the same or more resources in terms of buses and drivers.

Three additional buses moved from DB to GAI in recent months to facilitate this.

The staffing issues will remain unless GAI can recruit and retain new drivers.

TranslatorPS

The N6 has a higher service PVR (ie. buses in revenue service, on route) than the 17A could hope for in its current iteration, I don't even want to guess what the actual operational PVR (ie. buses in revenue service and running empty for breaks, etc.) will actually amount to.

For the record, I believe the service PVR of the 17A doesn't exceed 12 buses at any stage of the day (and that's even with the westbound f-10 in the morning), whereas the minimum safe PVR I would do on the N6 is 17 buses, and that's basically on minimum layover time at either end (I got the number 17 with layovers of 5 to 14 minutes).

EDIT:

New stop list:

7827 Eastpoint - N4 towards Blanch: Alfie Byrne Road north of Eastpoint Business Park junction

7828 Shangan Road - N6 towards Kilbarrack: Shangan Road west of Ballymun Road

7829 Shangan Road - N6 towards Finglas: Shangan Road west of Ballymun Road (pair to 7828)

7830 Colmcille - N4 towards The Point: Collins Avenue east of Beaumont Road junction

7831 Colmcille - N4 towards Blanch: Collins Avenue west of Beaumont Road junction (pair to 7830)

7832 Grove Park Road - N4 towards Blanch: Glasnevin Avenue between Grove Park Road and Beneavin Road (across from 139)

7834 East Wall Road - N4 towards Blanch: East Wall Road between Forth Road and Church Road

7836 Glasanaon Road - N4 towards Blanch: Seamus Ennis Road west of Clune Road

7837 Howth Junction - second-last N6 stop towards Kilbarrack: Kilbarrack Road east of the railway bridge (1010 still in service though)

7838 Finglas Village - N6 terminus: Finglas Main Street across from Drogheda Mall

7839 Malahide Road - N4 towards The Point: Collins Avenue east of Malahide Road junction

7840 Malahide Road - N4 towards Blanch: Collins Avenue east of Malahide Road junction (pair to 7839)

7841 Brookville Crescent - N6 towards Finglas: Oscar Traynor Road just west of Malahide Road (pair to 1001)

7842 New Wapping Street - second-last N4 stop towards The Point: New Wapping Street south of Mayor Street Upper

7843 Parnell Park - N4 towards Blanch: Collins Avenue west of Clanree Road (given the location of this and 7840 I'd expect 663 to be removed in the long term)

7844 Point Village - N4 terminus: North Wall Avenue

7845 Finglas - N4 towards Blanch, N6 towards Finglas: Finglas village beside Drogheda Mall

7847 Santry Villas - N6 towards Kilbarrack: Swords Road between Santry Avenue and Coolock Lane

7848 Santry Villas - N6 towards Finglas: Swords Road between Coolock Lane and Santry Avenue (pair to 7847)

7851 Swords Road - N4 towards The Point: Collins Avenue east of Swords Road (it's mapped just before the shelter bay there though...)

7852 Eastpoint - N4 towards The Point: Alfie Byrne Road south of Eastpoint Business Park junction (just above the M50 tunnel on a map; pair to 7827)

Numbers 7833, 7835, 7846, 7849, 7850 appear to not be assigned to any stops (they don't pop up on a-b.ie anyway).

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090934#Comment_119090934

I wonder are there any vacant premises in Finglas that might be suitable for a break room for them to use which would save dead running. I know it may seem ott having break facilities for just one route but there'd probably be less duties on the 184/185 which have their own break facilities in Bray. They could also use it for 220/104 breaks.

LXFlyer

A lot of the new bus stops are to facilitate easier connections with routes on spines or radial routes, and will make life easier in that regard.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091037#Comment_119091037

I was under the impression they were going to shoot for an outbase in Clonshaugh Industrial Estate (not sure if that'd be a replacement for the airport outbase or a new location on top of that). Even then that's an awkward location for en-route handovers (Dundaniel Road? you really don't want to be handing over there...), so I have to admit that I am quite curious as to what's going to happen to that.

(Bray: 23 duties Mon-Fri on that roster and some of them break in DL because they're 45A work rather than 184/185. Says a lot, doesn't it.)

odyssey06

The Eastpoint stops would have been very popular pre pandemic but place is like a ghost town now.

thomasj

The N4 departures have been added to the TFI journey planner

Screenshot_2022-05-22-12-43-58-61_be2945acdedbff407637cfda9aca8086.jpg

Peregrine

..

DaBluBoi

Anyone have a clue as to why the N4 ends in Point Village instead of the original terminus in Spencer Dock? I know that theres construction work going on in the latter, however Park Ln is completely free of any construction work and wouldve been able to handle the terminus for the N4 well. Just seems like a Point-less diversion to me :)

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119097055#Comment_119097055

The original plans would have had the buses driving through a Luas station, I presume that they changed their minds on that.

The G spine was meant to go through there as well, so I'd assume that it'll probably go down to the point as well.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119098043#Comment_119098043

They could've also used the 151 stop outside Docklands Station as the terminus

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091119#Comment_119091119

I believe they've bought/hired a fleet of Nissan Leafs. I could be totally wrong, but I'd imagine they're for transporting drivers back and forward to the depot.

brianc89

It dawned on me today how badly connected Capel Street is to bus routes. Even the Luas is not ideal, as Jervis and Four Courts are not beside the intersection with Capel Street.

The pedestrianisation of the street is going to fundamentally alter the city. It pulls the city centre North and West and will create a pedestrian / cafe / nightlife spine running from the Grand Canal at Rathmines all the way north to Dorset Street.

Any ideas to better connect the street to PT? Perhaps a bus route from Dublin Airport to Heuston Station via Dorset Street?...

cgcsb

A great failing of busconnects in my view. West Parnell St, Bolton St, King St, Capel St and the whole area up to Church Street completely void of public transport.

Citrus_8

Either bus 48 removed from Cabra and diverted via Dorset St or an additional bus 33 from Blanchardstown SC via Blanchardstown Village, straight through Phoenix Park via Dorset St to Mountjoy Square could help a lot. The latter could even be more frequent summer time weekends and less frequent all other times being a bit an unusual one due to the park/zoo. There's a huge problem with reaching Phoenix Park. Currently it's in favour to car owners. I myself have a car but would take bus to many places in Ireland if there was a proper way to reach it by PT. I've heard the OPW are being stubborn to let the buses through the Phoenix Park, if that's correct.

Citrus_8

Another topic. I noticed PT is less busy Mon and Fri. Already heard talk that other capitals are thinking to implement separate timetables for some routes for Tuesday-Thursday; then Mon, Fri & Sat and the other for Sun & BH only. I believe this could be useful to save some budget avoiding too empty buses running around on the very long and frequent spines, let say. An increase of 2-3 min waiting time wouldn't make a huge difference to the passengers but could save one or two shifts which is valuable when we are facing staff shortage issues.

donvito99

I would add Arbour Hill, Stoneybatter to the list. A micro transit type route from Heuston to Connolly a la the old route 90, via Arbour Hill, Brunswick/Blackhall St, North King St, Bolton/Capel St, Parnell St and Gardiner st.

brianc89

city-centre-area-map.pdf

Attaching the city centre area map from Bus Connects. You can really see the PT holes in these areas of the north inner city.

Reattaching the screenshot with a wider area, including Heuston, Arbour Hill and Brunswick Street North.

I like the idea of a 90 replacement bus from Heuston to Connolly, via Phoenix Park, zoo etc.

cgcsb

With the college green pedestrianisation I'd like to see at least one of the A, F or E spines diverted through church street or the smaller streets in the markets area. As it is, it looks like someone went through pains to avoid the western part of the northern inner city and route everything down O'Connel St.

Pete_Cavan

At a minimum you'd think either 19 or 48 (or both) looping around Parnell Sq could go via Parnell St West and Bolton St instead.

I assume they will still have to redirect routes away from CG, might be an opportunity to send 85 near the southern end of Capel St. Is Parliament St off the table now for redirected routes? If not, a contraflow bus lane of Grattan Bridge might help, presumably the reduction in traffic coming from Capel St frees up space on the bridge.

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119099664#Comment_119099664

But for capacity constraints, I think the E Spine should go via Church St. It hits the Green Line, the routes on the quays, and could get to Leeson St via Christchurch, Dame St and Cuffe St. Bus Connects is big on interchange otherwise, and throwing all buses down O'Connell St is a problem in and of itself.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119097055#Comment_119097055

North Wall Avenue is a far better location for a terminus as it has two long bays along it (currently used as car parking) which are ideal bus stands.

Park Lane is a rather narrow road with no suitable space for buses laying over, and as Catinabox says the original plan failed to recognise that there is no road access where Spencer Dock LUAS stop is located.

This terminus is far from "pointless" as it is will now provide a closer access to Ringsend and Irishtown via the Eastlink bridge, in addition to the offices and apartments around the 3Arena. The stops on New Wapping Street mean that Spencer Dock is still served.

LXFlyer

When looking at the revised routings of bus routes through the city centre, it is important to remember that one of the key elements of it is that it has to eliminate as far as possible any turns at O'Connell Bridge, which does make it just a bit trickier.

Like it or not, the spine routes do all need to pass O'Connell Bridge one way or another to facilitate connections between them - connecting is a key element of this project and the Spine routes are the core of the new network.

There are fewer routes using O'Connell Street as a result of this plan, the B, E and F Spines, and the 85, so it's certainly not a case of "throwing all buses down O'Connell St" as someone has suggested.

Radial routes can be more flexible and to be fair a good number of them will now use Gardiner Street instead of O'Connell Street. I am struggling to see where buses could really go around the Parnell Street area. With Kings Inn Street being rather narrow, and the top of Capel Street being one way it makes it difficult to see what could go around there. Added to that there are a plethora of right turn bans that make re-routing buses that bit trickier.

With regard to the routings post-College Green pedestrianisation, they were published in the final network plan as below.

brianc89

I agree with you that Point is a better terminus than Spencer. Also agree that routes through O'Connell Street facilitate best connections. I wouldn't suggest changing any of that.

As you suggest though, radial routes are more flexible. How about the 19 and 22 continue down Dorset St, Bolton St, King St. N, then they use with Church St or Beresford St to connect with the Luas. Then use the Luas line for a straight run to Heuston (and maybe Phoenix Park).

I would not suggest using Capel St or Parnell St (west of street) for buses.

cgcsb

One of the spines using Church Street, say the E spine for example, would still mean all spines would cross eachother and have good interchange. They need not all use O'Connell and really O'Connell street needs to be more than a transport hub, the area needs serious investment.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119101170#Comment_119101170

So what if someone then wants to switch between the E and H Spines? The H Spine is on Lower Abbey Street and your suggestion would make that transfer far more difficult.

It would mean either people would have a long walk or making two transfers which is only going to put people off.

Whether you like it or not, O’Connell Bridge is a key part of BusConnects as the main interchange point.