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BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion
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Just on the subject of BRT. The bendybuses they are proposing to buy are little differant to a normal bendybus they look narrower and have the driver seat completely closed off like the Luas. I think a normal bendybus with multiple entrances and exits and no driver interaction would be a better fit as those types of buses are more spacious. Maybe a Paris style Mobilien might be a better fit.0
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Just on the subject of BRT. The bendybuses they are proposing to buy are little differant to a normal bendybus they look narrower and have the driver seat completely closed off like the Luas. I think a normal bendybus with multiple entrances and exits and no driver interaction would be a better fit as those types of buses are more spacious. Maybe a Paris style Mobilien might be a better fit.
Only issue is space as roads are so narrow.0 -
punisher5112 wrote: »Only issue is space as roads are so narrow.
But isin't the idea of BRT that it runs on wider streets anyway if it was to come roadspace will probably be an issue with Luas, ordinary buses, taxis and BRT. I suspect private cars will have to make way.0 -
Changes I'd make
7- Remove Blackrock diversion
46a/145- Turn into BRT routes
75- It has extremely long running times and often gets held up in the peak hours what I'd do is split this route in two and have a route from DL to Dundrum and a separate route from Dundrum to Tallaght. There dosen't seem to be a huge demand for a service from DL all the way to Tallaght.
84- Run all services to St.Vincents Hospital and the services which currently go to St.Vincents Hospital into town this would provide additional capacity on the Rock Road corridor at peak times. I'd also scrap the Cherrywood diversion.
111- Scrap all the riddiculous diversions off route its similar now to the old 59 with all the long and somewhat pointless diversions. Maybe run it Brides Glen - Dalkey - Dun Laoghaire would be a better idea than its current routing.
114- Increase frequency to a consistent hourly frequency, run it later at night and introduce a sunday service.
184- Extend to Bride's Glen Luas to amke up for the loss of the 84 and increase sunday frequency
I'd also introduce from Bray to Dundrum taking a direct not meandering route.0 -
You clearly don't use the 75 regularly - there most definitely is demand through Dundrum. Terminating the route there would infuriate a lot of people. People aren't generally going end to end but rather are making shorter trips all along the route. In doing so it ensures good loadings all along the route. While Dundrum is a major destination, large numbers of people don't get on/off there.
The route has just got a new timetable with longer running times which has meant a dramatic improvement in reliability.
The longer term solution for the 75 is to introduce the 175 which would mean two more direct orbital routes across south Dublin, rather than splitting it halfway.
The 111 is a local community bus route - going into the local estates such as Loughlinstown Park and Sallynoggin is part of its raison d'etre. A mix of local, direct and express bus routes is needed. That route gets some of its highest loadings in the estates - why remove it?
You do realise that a secondary reason for the 84a extensions to St Vincent's Hospital (apart from serving the schools) is to allow the buses get refuelled in Donnybrook (they operate out of Bray depot)?
Where are all the extra vehicles going to come from to operate these longer 84/a and 184 routes?0 -
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rather than removing the Cherrywood diversion on the 84 (which connects with Luas) they should only run to Cherrywood and then back to Kilcoole. Would allow higher frequencies. You can get to Vincent's from North Wicklow on the Dart.0
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You clearly don't use the 75 regularly - there most definitely is demand through Dundrum. Terminating the route there would infuriate a lot of people. People aren't generally going end to end but rather are making shorter trips all along the route. In doing so it ensures good loadings all along the route. While Dundrum is a major destination, large numbers of people don't get on/off there.
The route has just got a new timetable with longer running times which has meant a dramatic improvement in reliability.
The longer term solution for the 75 is to introduce the 175 which would mean two more direct orbital routes across south Dublin, rather than splitting it halfway.
The 111 is a local community bus route - going into the local estates such as Loughlinstown Park and Sallynoggin is part of its raison d'etre. A mix of local, direct and express bus routes is needed. That route gets some of its highest loadings in the estates - why remove it?
You do realise that a secondary reason for the 84a extensions to St Vincent's Hospital (apart from serving the schools) is to allow the buses get refuelled in Donnybrook (they operate out of Bray depot)?
Where are all the extra vehicles going to come from to operate these longer 84/a and 184 routes?
What I'd suggest is they introduce the new 175 but the 75 in it's current form will most likely stay so when the 175 does come in it they should split the 75 in two as it's very unreliable as its so long. I use the 75 on the Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum fairly regularly and trust me most people on the bus were going to Dundrum. Isin't one of the principals of the bus connects plan is to get people to change buses more often.
Yes but what if you want to use the 111 to go from Dalkey to Bride's Glen then it's non runner as its too long because of all it's diversions. The reason the 111 gets a good loading in those area's is that people are waiting for 7a but the 111 happens to come along first.
Thats what I would have imagined about the 84a. You ask where the buses will come from? Isin't a billion being spent on improving bus routes.0 -
rather than removing the Cherrywood diversion on the 84 (which connects with Luas) they should only run to Cherrywood and then back to Kilcoole. Would allow higher frequencies. You can get to Vincent's from North Wicklow on the Dart.
Yes but the reason the 84 takes its current routing is to serve the schools.0 -
What I'd suggest is they introduce the new 175 but the 75 in it's current form will most likely stay so when the 175 does come in it they should split the 75 in two as it's very unreliable as its so long. I use the 75 on the Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum fairly regularly and trust me most people on the bus were going to Dundrum. Isin't one of the principals of the bus connects plan is to get people to change buses more often.
Yes but what if you want to use the 111 to go from Dalkey to Bride's Glen then it's non runner as its too long because of all it's diversions. The reason the 111 gets a good loading in those area's is that people are waiting for 7a but the 111 happens to come along first.
Thats what I would have imagined about the 84a. You ask where the buses will come from? Isin't a billion being spent on improving bus routes.
As someone whom has regularly used the 75 since it started, believe me there are significant numbers who don't get off at Dundrum and who would be discommoded by your idea. Large numbers commute to/from the western half of the route to points east of Dundrum which I suspect that you wouldn't see as you're not using the eastbound service in the morning peak.
The reliability issue has been dealt with by the new rosters.
Bus connects suggests switching between radial and orbital routes - it doesn't suggest switching from one orbital to another unless switching direction from north to east or west to north for example. I see no benefit in cutting the service in two halfway.
Straightening out the 75 however by introducing the 175 (thereby maintaining an orbital service to pretty much all of the existing route) for example would help with running times.
Again the 111 really isn't designed for end to end trips - it's for short local trips. It is a local community bus route - not a key corridor route. By its very nature it is designed to serve the local communities - try removing it and seeing what the political reaction will be.
You don't seem to understand that irrespective of what changes take place on the key radial routes, that local low frequency routes such as the 111 will still be needed to serve the communities, particularly in the less affluent estates.0 -
rather than removing the Cherrywood diversion on the 84 (which connects with Luas) they should only run to Cherrywood and then back to Kilcoole. Would allow higher frequencies. You can get to Vincent's from North Wicklow on the Dart.
There still needs to be a service along Clonkeen Rd - it serves the schools and also local traffic between Blackrock and points south.0 -
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Again the 111 really isn't designed for end to end trips - it's for short local trips. It is a local community bus route - not a key corridor route. By its very nature it is designed to serve the local communities - try removing it and seeing what the political reaction will be.
You don't seem to understand that irrespective of what changes take place on the key radial routes, that local low frequency routes such as the 111 will still be needed to serve the communities, particularly in the less affluent estates.
But Dalkey could do with a service going to Cherrywood to connect it with. The original was to run the the 59 from DL to Bride's Glen every 30 mins via Dalkey a far more logical solution. But because of the local objection they introduced this new 111. In areas like Sallynoggin and Louglinstown its more or less just putting on extra capacity on the 7a.0 -
Can we all put the crayons away? If bus connects delivers none of the current routes will survive in their present forms0
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But Dalkey could do with a service going to Cherrywood to connect it with. The original was to run the the 59 from DL to Bride's Glen every 30 mins via Dalkey a far more logical solution. But because of the local objection they introduced this new 111. In areas like Sallynoggin and Louglinstown its more or less just putting on extra capacity on the 7a.
The purpose of the 111 right now is to provide a link from Dalkey to Dun Laoghaire alongside the 59, and then to link Dun Laoghaire with Glenageary SC, Sallynoggin, Killiney SC, Loughlinstown Park estate, Loughlinstown Park and the LUAS.
The fact that it operates from Dalkey to Brides Glen is really incidental. I suspect that the people using it for local trips in between the points above would far outweigh those needing to go from a Dalkey to Brides Glen.
The bottom line is that there is relatively high usage from those estates as compared with Dalkey and the 111 is designed to link them with the shopping centres and the local hospital as well as the LUAS.
As I keep pointing out to you - it is a local community PSO bus service.
A direct bus from Dalkey to Brides Glen is a completely different matter. I would have my doubts as to how viable it might be, but it's a different issue.
With respect you're only looking at it from your own personal perspective (as many people tend to do when looking at public transport, without actually looking at the bigger picture which are the other traffic flows and the need to maximise them.0 -
LeinsterDub wrote: »Can we all put the crayons away? If bus connects delivers none of the current routes will survive in their present forms
I don't know about that - local community bus services in various areas such as the 59, 63, 111, 185, etc will probably survive.
But coming up with ideas that just facilitate individual whims I would agree is relatively pointless.0 -
Agreed. I was also puzzled by all the "tweaking talk" when BusConnects should be a clean slate job.LeinsterDub wrote: »Can we all put the crayons away? If bus connects delivers none of the current routes will survive in their present forms0 -
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I disagree. As long as an effective network is provided and the max walking distance to every stop from every premises is less than an agreed amount, it should be possible to completely replace the existing network with a new one. Otherwise there is actually no point in BusConnects.difficult to do a completely clean slate, people live and work where they do based on the public transport options.0 -
The problem is that from a bus transport point of view, having a cruciform Luas system effectively changes everything. It is certainly not be a clean slate, but it is a new slate. Change is no longer an option; it is basically essential if the whole system isn't to collapse in city centre congestion.
The 'new slate' has many problems. There is going to be a lot of contention for road space and the capacity on the Luas is very limited in relation to the likely demand.
I would say the solution to it is to create two new cruciforms using bus corridors, offset around 1km or a bit more from where the two luas lines meet. The natural place for the meeting points of these two new cruciforms would be somewhere around St Patricks Cathedral, and the second somewhere around where the Dorset St meets North Circular Road. These corridors would operate a frequency of every two or three minutes and would solve a lot of the problems discussed in this thread to expedite boarding, changing from one bus or luas to another and journey speed.
The whole system would then rely on being able to change easily from one bus or luas corridor to another.
The frequency would have to be very high, maybe every 2 minutes at the peak and no less than every ten minutes.
If this worked well enough, you would no longer need to have such a concentration of buses in the very centre of the city (which is impossible anymore anyway, because of the Luas taking up so much road space).
Every route would be perpendicular to the Luas. This would mean that it would only have to cross the Luas line once (contrast this with the proposed Airport BRT, which would cross the Luas twice (well, arguably, three times) on its route.
This is where the Walker work is going I think.
Here is the problem: to make this work, you need to operate the system at an extremely high standard. I just don't see how this can happen with the current management arrangements.0 -
The purpose of the 111 right now is to provide a link from Dalkey to Dun Laoghaire alongside the 59, and then to link Dun Laoghaire with Glenageary SC, Sallynoggin, Killiney SC, Loughlinstown Park estate, Loughlinstown Park and the LUAS.
The fact that it operates from Dalkey to Brides Glen is really incidental. I suspect that the people using it for local trips in between the points above would far outweigh those needing to go from a Dalkey to Brides Glen.
The bottom line is that there is relatively high usage from those estates as compared with Dalkey and the 111 is designed to link them with the shopping centres and the local hospital as well as the LUAS.
As I keep pointing out to you - it is a local community PSO bus service.
A direct bus from Dalkey to Brides Glen is a completely different matter. I would have my doubts as to how viable it might be, but it's a different issue.
With respect you're only looking at it from your own personal perspective (as many people tend to do when looking at public transport, without actually looking at the bigger picture which are the other traffic flows and the need to maximise them.
A bus service from Dalkey to Brides Glen is far too short if it works on a direct route via Castlepark Road into Dalkey. It could be very similar to route 221 from Shangan Road to Silouge Road running for a short number of months. Then the route would be quietly shelved from the NTA & Dublin Bus without much publicity.
The current 111 as it is meets the requirements of the areas & passengers that it intends to serve with it's new timetable & routing. The current 59 route from Killieny Hill to Dun Laoghaire is also has the position to serve as a local route to meet it's own areas & required number of passengers.0 -
The purpose of the 111 right now is to provide a link from Dalkey to Dun Laoghaire alongside the 59, and then to link Dun Laoghaire with Glenageary SC, Sallynoggin, Killiney SC, Loughlinstown Park estate, Loughlinstown Park and the LUAS.
The fact that it operates from Dalkey to Brides Glen is really incidental. I suspect that the people using it for local trips in between the points above would far outweigh those needing to go from a Dalkey to Brides Glen.
The bottom line is that there is relatively high usage from those estates as compared with Dalkey and the 111 is designed to link them with the shopping centres and the local hospital as well as the LUAS.
As I keep pointing out to you - it is a local community PSO bus service.
A direct bus from Dalkey to Brides Glen is a completely different matter. I would have my doubts as to how viable it might be, but it's a different issue.
With respect you're only looking at it from your own personal perspective (as many people tend to do when looking at public transport, without actually looking at the bigger picture which are the other traffic flows and the need to maximise them.
What I am is the reason many people are using the 111 is the areas like Louglinstown and Sallynoggin is because a 111 might come before a 7a and using it on parallel journey like Sallynoggin to DL. So really they're just using it purely out coincidence rather than nessecity. Also I'd say a large amount of people using are on the FTP. I think reasources would be better placed eleswhere. I've seen it a few times around DL carrying fresh air perhaps it was the time of the day but I doubt it.
The original was a plan to run the 59 from DL to Bride's Glen via Dalkey but it was stopped probably because the bus would no longer serve Killiney Villlage (not exactly a huge passenger generator), not a bus that only went from Dalkey to Bride's Glen. Dalkey is quite badly served by buses as nearly all just run parallel to the Dart serving OAPs who can't walk to the Dart.
I sometimes wonder about these buses serving mainly OAPs would not be better and perhaps even cheaper to provide some kind of Dial a ride service for them instead of running a scheduled service. Instead of making these off route diversions into housing estates and running that serve little other purpose but to serve them.0 -
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antoinolachtnai wrote: »The problem is that from a bus transport point of view, having a cruciform Luas system effectively changes everything. It is certainly not be a clean slate, but it is a new slate. Change is no longer an option; it is basically essential if the whole system isn't to collapse in city centre congestion.
The 'new slate' has many problems. There is going to be a lot of contention for road space and the capacity on the Luas is very limited in relation to the likely demand.
I would say the solution to it is to create two new cruciforms using bus corridors, offset around 1km or a bit more from where the two luas lines meet. The natural place for the meeting points of these two new cruciforms would be somewhere around St Patricks Cathedral, and the second somewhere around where the Dorset St meets North Circular Road. These corridors would operate a frequency of every two or three minutes and would solve a lot of the problems discussed in this thread to expedite boarding, changing from one bus or luas to another and journey speed.
The whole system would then rely on being able to change easily from one bus or luas corridor to another.
The frequency would have to be very high, maybe every 2 minutes at the peak and no less than every ten minutes.
If this worked well enough, you would no longer need to have such a concentration of buses in the very centre of the city (which is impossible anymore anyway, because of the Luas taking up so much road space).
Every route would be perpendicular to the Luas. This would mean that it would only have to cross the Luas line once (contrast this with the proposed Airport BRT, which would cross the Luas twice (well, arguably, three times) on its route.
This is where the Walker work is going I think.
Here is the problem: to make this work, you need to operate the system at an extremely high standard. I just don't see how this can happen with the current management arrangements.
Interesting points re service design.
Given the current capacity issues on the LUAS red line in the city area at peak times (from Heuston to Abbey stops), I do wonder about the degree to which there going to be the ability to utilise LUAS for significant amounts of transfers from buses in the city centre?
And can we assume you're referring to your perceptions of DB management in your final comment?0 -
The idea would be to have sufficiently good bus services such that they would relieve some of the demand on Luas. As you rightly say the service is saturated at times and the network effect of joining the lines and adding new destinations will make the service even more attractive.
I think you might be able to guess what my views on DB management might be but I mean to draw attention to the whole way we run buses in the city than criticise any one particular group of individuals.0 -
I may be talking off the top of my head here.
If the BusDirect works it seems to me that there will be a core service to main hubs, and a "spider web" like service after that.
That would enable a fast, timely and efficient service to most hubs and a connection outwards or inwards to those areas with smaller needs.
Have I got it wrong?0 -
antoinolachtnai wrote: »The idea would be to have sufficiently good bus services such that they would relieve some of the demand on Luas. As you rightly say the service is saturated at times and the network effect of joining the lines and adding new destinations will make the service even more attractive.
I think you might be able to guess what my views on DB management might be but I mean to draw attention to the whole way we run buses in the city than criticise any one particular group of individuals.
It's going to be a big challenge all right - getting suitable transfer points around the outskirts of the city centre where people can switch between bus routes and wait with proper facilities (shelters) is not going to be easy either.
One can only hope that the NTA will be able to persuade DCC to allow more bus shelters, and that situations like putting a bus stop on O'Connell Bridge are cast to oblivion.
I certainly don't think LUAS is the panacea to all ills - it has a finite capacity and expecting large numbers to transfer to it from bus routes in the general city centre area isn't realistic. Don't get me wrong - it is a great addition to the city, but it's not going to cope with massive numbers of additional transfers at peak times. How the bus routes are organised to complement LUAS in the city centre, as they surely will have to, will be interesting.
I do still have serious doubts about how things are going to work on the traffic front - tonight I sat through five changes of lights on Rosie Hackett Bridge before my bus could finally turn onto Burgh Quay. And that was without a tram every 3 minutes.0 -
I certainly don't think LUAS is the panacea to all ills - it has a finite capacity and expecting large numbers to transfer to it from bus routes in the general city centre area isn't realistic. Don't get me wrong - it is a great addition to the city, but it's not going to cope with massive numbers of additional transfers at peak times. How the bus routes are organised to complement LUAS in the city centre, as they surely will have to, will be interesting.
I do still have serious doubts about how things are going to work on the traffic front - tonight I sat through five changes of lights on Rosie Hackett Bridge before my bus could finally turn onto Burgh Quay. And that was without a tram every 3 minutes.
Luas certainly does prove that people in Dublin will flock to what they perceive as good quality public transport.
I think your concerns about the traffic impact of trams are spot-on and few people are taking the impact on board. This really changes everything.
It isn't really a tram every three minutes. It's a tram every three minutes in each direction, so really it's a tram every 1.5 minutes. And at 12 km/h it will take a 53m tram 17 seconds to pass, so the junction will be held closed for 25 seconds. Two long trams passing in opposite directions at close to the same time could hold the junction for a minute. The rush hour is only 60 minutes long so there's only so many buses you'll be able to get through the junction. If the same bus has to cross the luas twice, then just forget about it ...0 -
antoinolachtnai wrote: »Luas certainly does prove that people in Dublin will flock to what they perceive as good quality public transport.
I think your concerns about the traffic impact of trams are spot-on and few people are taking the impact on board. This really changes everything.
It isn't really a tram every three minutes. It's a tram every three minutes in each direction, so really it's a tram every 1.5 minutes. And at 12 km/h it will take a 53m tram 17 seconds to pass, so the junction will be held closed for 25 seconds. Two long trams passing in opposite directions at close to the same time could hold the junction for a minute. The rush hour is only 60 minutes long so there's only so many buses you'll be able to get through the junction. If the same bus has to cross the luas twice, then just forget about it ...
I have already communicated my concerns directly to all of the principals involved in this, and my perception is that they are shared by most of the transport professionals - the problem is that the politicians have not grasped the reality of what is going to happen - hence we have seen the crazy row-backs on traffic on the proposals along Quays in the city centre, the notion that taxis, buses and LUAS will all happily share College Green together, etc.
The fact that no additional bus priority is planned for Ormond Quay Upper, despite possibly an extra 40 buses an hour using it at peak times says an awful lot.0 -
Lxflyer you seem to be quite reluctant to criticise DB but quick off the mark to criticise the Luas why is this. Do you work for DB PR or something.0
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I do not think the technical level in places like NTA have grasped it either, or if they have it is only recently. If they did they would come up with fantasy ideas like the Swords BRT, which basically entails replacing the 41 (which doesn't cross any Luas lines) with a route which crosses the Luas three times, and which they then expect to cover the route 20 percent faster than the original route.
The ideas about having further luas lines also exhibit a deep misunderstanding of what the Luas system is actually capable of.
The business case for Luas cross-city indicates that the problems that Luas will run into in relation to capacity have either been ignored or misunderstood.
But to the credit of all the people involved, some effort is now being made to fix the bus system. But they are only giving themselves six months to do it. Christmas could well be bedlam, though we might get away with it. Winter 2018 will be catastrophic unless the bus transport system is reformed.0 -
I'm not criticising LUAS at all - I don't know where you're getting that from. I just made the point that I don't think that, given existing capacity issues that it suffers from, that it will be able to cope with hoards of people transferring onto it from the buses onto LUAS as some people think. That's not LUAS' fault - it's a criticism of appalling transport planning in our city.Lxflyer you seem to be quite reluctant to criticise DB but quick off the mark to criticise the Luas why is this. Do you work for DB PR or something.
What I am criticising is the complete lack of proper planning by the transport planners for dealing with the effects that LUAS is going to have on the rest of the public transport service in the city in the short-medium term, and the notion that the city is going to be able to cope with it without far more restrictive measures for general traffic.
Bear in mind that whatever comes out of the BusConnects project is not going to actually happen until late next year or 2019 at the earliest, given the massive redesign of the network and also of all the rosters etc that underpin it (Walker wants it all to happen in one go - that's a massive ask).
Even post-LUAS BXD, the majority of commuters will still be using the bus - and that fact is rather important, and we still don't have a short-medium term plan for how the bus routes will cope until the redesign happens, but certain elements seem to be happy to come with crazy ideas such as core cross-city bus routes doing loops around D'Olier Street, College Street, and Westmoreland Street from O'Connell Street to the Quays and then turn back via Parliament Street and Dame Street to get to Georges Street (thereby extending journey times).
I tend to look at these things from a practical perspective - in other words how the public transport system is actually going to keep working from one day to the next. Yes there are good signs for the future, but that is some time away. At the moment I am afraid I foresee gridlock and people having to rush to save face - I hope that I'm wrong but I'm not confident about it at all.
And I have no connection with DB other than being a user who doesn't have the option of LUAS for most of my journeys.0 -
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I do think it basically all has to be done in one go. It is not really that big an ask. It takes a lot of organisation and planning, sure.
The key is to get significant people to transfer from Luas to bus. As the bus network is at the moment, there would be little reason to transfer from Luas to Bus outside of the really busy central area. But if people got off the red line around the Four Courts to get a bus goes towards St Patricks Cathedral every two minutes that might take a bit of pressure off. Equally, if people got off the southbound green Luas from the Northside at Dominick St or further north to get a high frequency bus that would bring them to the IFSC, that could provide a bit of relief.
I think Luas has been allowed to be enormously oversold as a solution to Dublin's transport problems.0
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