BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

orangerhyme

Lots of people from Tallaght take the bus because its faster than the Luas

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I do think it basically all has to be done in one go. It is not really that big an ask. It takes a lot of organisation and planning, sure.

The key is to get significant people to transfer from Luas to bus. As the bus network is at the moment, there would be little reason to transfer from Luas to Bus outside of the really busy central area. But if people got off the red line around the Four Courts to get a bus goes towards St Patricks Cathedral every two minutes that might take a bit of pressure off. Equally, if people got off the southbound green Luas from the Northside at Dominick St or further north to get a high frequency bus that would bring them to the IFSC, that could provide a bit of relief.

I think Luas has been allowed to be enormously oversold as a solution to Dublin's transport problems.

I agree - the only way it'll work is a "big bang". But I think that it is a big ask in terms of the schedule and roster redesign mainly - there's a finite number of schedulers for one thing to actually do all the work, and expecting an entire network to be rescheduled and re-rostered quickly is a big ask in my view! I think it will take time.

And then there is the elephant in the room - I suspect that there are going to be a lot of issues with the unions to overcome - and that's being realistic about it. That's going to be a challenge.

Finally, while we have come up with some good broad ideas in the past, the detail and execution of them has been always the Achilles' heel. And if not enough attention is spent on the detail, we will have problems.

orangerhyme

lxflyer wrote: »

I agree - the only way it'll work is a "big bang". But I think that it is a big ask in terms of the schedule and roster redesign mainly - there's a finite number of schedulers for one thing to actually do all the work, and expecting an entire network to be rescheduled and re-rostered quickly is a big ask in my view! I think it will take time.

And then there is the elephant in the room - I suspect that there are going to be a lot of issues with the unions to overcome - and that's being realistic about it. That's going to be a challenge.

Finally, while we have come up with some good broad ideas in the past, the detail and execution of them has been always the Achilles' heel. And if not enough attention is spent on the detail, we will have problems.

Jarrett Walker has done it in phases in the past.
Id imagine this will happen and then when everything is in place such as cashless ticketing and new livery, then have the big launch

LXFlyer

orangerhyme wrote: »

Jarrett Walker has done it in phases in the past.
Id imagine this will happen and then when everything is in place such as cashless ticketing and new livery, then have the big launch

He indicated at a seminar that I attended that his preference is a "Big Bang" in Dublin in terms of the network redesign. The cashless ticketing and liveries are all separate parts of the project to Jarrett Walker's element - that is purely the network redesign that we are talking about.

Given the fundamental shake up in the network design that is being discussed I can't see it happening any other way than a Big Bang!

antoinolachtnai

The thing though is that with Luas cross-city there is going to be significant extra bus capacity available. This gives some margin for doing new things. Straightening out ticketing would free up a bit more capacity in the system too.

There are certainly union issues. But maybe if there were real leadership these things could be overcome? There is a reality here to be coped with. The bus network has to go through radical change. If it can't, and the unions are to blame, there is going to be a lot of backwash. The bus unions are just not in a position to go on a major strike again and if they screw this up too badly, they will endanger their own existence. On the whole, Luas cross-city will make the city more bus-strike-proof than before, and we have seen the city survive through quite significant bus strikes before.

Scheduling bus routes is honestly not that big a deal in and of itself.

I do think that there need to be some new core 'ideas', in particular streamlining the ticketing system, which will probably involve fare zones. These are difficult to plan, but once you get on the right direction, they should simplify everything and make everything else easier to implement.

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The thing though is that with Luas cross-city there is going to be significant extra bus capacity available. This gives some margin for doing new things. Straightening out ticketing would free up a bit more capacity in the system too.

There are certainly union issues. But maybe if there were real leadership these things could be overcome? There is a reality here to be coped with. The bus network has to go through radical change. If it can't, and the unions are to blame, there is going to be a lot of backwash. The bus unions are just not in a position to go on a major strike again and if they screw this up too badly, they will endanger their own existence. On the whole, Luas cross-city will make the city more bus-strike-proof than before, and we have seen the city survive through quite significant bus strikes before.

Scheduling bus routes is honestly not that big a deal in and of itself.

I do think that there need to be some new core 'ideas', in particular streamlining the ticketing system, which will probably involve fare zones. These are difficult to plan, but once you get on the right direction, they should simplify everything and make everything else easier to implement.

So put your money where your thoughts are lol - when do you realistically think the revised network could be implemented?

orangerhyme

Jarrett Walker said it would be rolled out in '18 to '19

antoinolachtnai

I think if it isn't rolled out in 18 the winter season will be crazy. I suppose we will get away with it but it will be painful.

I think the right management team could roll it out by autumn 18. The reality is we don't and it will be 19. It will take a lot of focus to stop it from falling back into 2020.

LXFlyer

Well then I think we both have the same timeframe in mind.

My gut feeling is sometime in 2019.

The intervening period will be fun!

orangerhyme

lxflyer wrote: »

He indicated at a seminar that I attended that his preference is a "Big Bang" in Dublin in terms of the network redesign. The cashless ticketing and liveries are all separate parts of the project to Jarrett Walker's element - that is purely the network redesign that we are talking about.

Given the fundamental shake up in the network design that is being discussed I can't see it happening any other way than a Big Bang!

The cashless ticketing is vital to Jarrett Walkers plans as transferring between buses is a large part of his philosophy.

LuckyLloyd

orangerhyme wrote: »

Lots of people from Tallaght take the bus because its faster than the Luas

Correct - the redline LUAS is slow and indirect. If you're at the square the bus is generally a better option - and it might get you closer to where you're actually going too

Dyr

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Here is the problem: to make this work, you need to operate the system at an extremely high standard. I just don't see how this can happen with the current management arrangements.

This is the where every plan for transport in Dublin falls off a cliff, They do not survive contact with Dublin Bus. There would need to be constant oversight at an operational level to make sure they don't reduce the implementation over time to a standard that suits them and no one else.

schemingbohemia

lxflyer wrote: »

I have already communicated my concerns directly to all of the principals involved in this, and my perception is that they are shared by most of the transport professionals - the problem is that the politicians have not grasped the reality of what is going to happen - hence we have seen the crazy row-backs on traffic on the proposals along Quays in the city centre, the notion that taxis, buses and LUAS will all happily share College Green together, etc.

The fact that no additional bus priority is planned for Ormond Quay Upper, despite possibly an extra 40 buses an hour using it at peak times says an awful lot.

I think the plan is to let chaos reign when LUAS cross-city starts so that it will finally get into certain councillors thick heads that more bus priority is needed on the quays and that the Liffey Cycle Route is also required and that we simply don't have room for private motor cars carrying 1 person to have free reign on the finite space we have in the city centre.

bk

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I think the plan is to let chaos reign when LUAS cross-city starts so that it will finally get into certain councillors thick heads that more bus priority is needed on the quays and that the Liffey Cycle Route is also required and that we simply don't have room for private motor cars carrying 1 person to have free reign on the finite space we have in the city centre.

This 100%

The various planners at the NTA/DCC/DB all know perfectly well that LCC is going to cause chaos.

They just couldn't convince the various politicians who are more interested in listening to their buddies who own the car parks.

So I think the plan is, let the chaos reign, which will in turn have the public crazy angry with their local politicians, who will then in turn allow the planners to do what they wanted all along.

Unfortunately this is simply how things work in Ireland! :mad:

antoinolachtnai

Well, if that is the plan it won't work.

Further restricting the number of ways to get in and out of the city (which is what pedestrianisation does) without providing alternative ways to get in and out of the city is going to make things worse, not better.

bk

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, if that is the plan it won't work.

Further restricting the number of ways to get in and out of the city (which is what pedestrianisation does) without providing alternative ways to get in and out of the city is going to make things worse, not better.

I don't understand?

Restricting cars coming into the city has been very much the plan for almost 40 years now. It started with the pedestrianisation of Grafton Street in the 70's.

It continued with the restrictions on cars on O'Connell St, which seemingly reduced the number of vehicles heading south on O'Connell St in the morning peak from 1,400 to just 200 today (and they are mostly buses).

Then there was the bus gate.

No we are going to get increasing restrictions at College Green and along the Quays.

Basically the very clear plan now is to push cars out of the city to make way for more trams, buses, cycling and pedestrians.

antoinolachtnai

That is more of a concept or a direction than a plan.

There is no real plan for how to sort out the bus service.

Without an upgraded bus service to match the reduction in car capacity all you are doing is refucing the city's capacity.

The bus service will not magically upgrade itself as car capacity reduces.

orangerhyme

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is more of a concept or a direction than a plan.

There is no real plan for how to sort out the bus service.

Without an upgraded bus service to match the reduction in car capacity all you are doing is refucing the city's capacity.

The bus service will not magically upgrade itself as car capacity reduces.

Well, there is a plan. Yer man Jarrett Walker is the best in the world at this and has worked on over 50 cities transit services.

The basic plan is a simplified high frequency integrated network, with easy interchanges and cashless ticketing. Properly spaced bus stops, cashless ticketing and more rights of way and dedicated lanes will speed up the bus service somewhat.
Theres also talk BRT services but thats more costly and requires infrastructure being built.

I have faith in the plans. Hopefully vested parties get behind it, because theres not much happening with rail and luas for the foreseeable future.

I really do think that much more people would cycle if we had more segregated cycle lanes i.e. suppressed demand.

LXFlyer

I think that what antoinolachtnai is highlighting is that there is going to be a minimum 2 year gap between putting serious restrictions on general traffic in the city centre (which could happen this Autumn) and the implementation of the BusConnect plan (likely in H2 of 2019).

BusConnects is all well and good, but there is a two year period before that is implemented to cope with first!

That's a long gap to fill with no real plan of how to deal with all the potential extra passengers that may be discommoded by the traffic restrictions until 2019. The existing public transport services are already creaking at the seams.

That's what I have been highlighting pretty much all along, together with some extraordinary ideas for re-routing key cross-city routes that result in either longer journey times or key stops being missed out altogether.

antoinolachtnai

Jarett Walker is looking at the routes as I understand it.

There is a lot more to a bus service than routes.

He isn't looking at the operating model.

Steps are being taken towards coming up with a plan, but this is a lot different from having a plan. And as ixflyer says, we are leaving it very late indeed to come up with a plan. And there are other major challenges on the horizon for public transport in Dublin in H2 2019.

I am glad you have faith!

orangerhyme

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Jarett Walker is looking at the routes as I understand it.

There is a lot more to a bus service than routes.

He isn't looking at the operating model.

Steps are being taken towards coming up with a plan, but this is a lot different from having a plan. And as ixflyer says, we are leaving it very late indeed to come up with a plan. And there are other major challenges on the horizon for public transport in Dublin in H2 2019.

I am glad you have faith!

One big worry is whether College Green will be closed off to Buses once to Luas starts and all those buses routed down the Quays, then also at the same time the liffey cycle route comes into play. It could be mayhem!

On top of that there is approximately space for 30 ,000 office workers being built down the docklands!
Only 1000 apartments being built so all of these workers ( Brexit immigrants maybe) will have to commute from somewhere.

antoinolachtnai

Yes, this is big capacity that has to be catered for as the city continues to grow.

At the moment all we have to rely on seems to be a BRT called Hope.

LXFlyer

Regardless of what happens with the ABP College Green Plaza process, which may take until late 2017 or early 2018, the bus routes will have to change once full testing begins and also traffic restrictions will have to be implemented at College Green - they can't mix!

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I think that what antoinolachtnai is highlighting is that there is going to be a minimum 2 year gap between putting serious restrictions on general traffic in the city centre (which could happen this Autumn) and the implementation of the BusConnect plan (likely in H2 of 2019).

Unfortunately I think there may well need to be two years of chaos and angry bus users to properly focus the minds of our politicians so that they accept the necessary changes that come out of these plans!

I know, that sucks, but really not the planners fault, just how things work in Ireland!

orangerhyme

I think they should extend the Luas Green line out to Blanch, theres over 100,000 people living in that area.
It looks easy enough on the map to extend it out there and would surely take some cars and buses off the roads

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Unfortunately I think there may well need to be two years of chaos and angry bus users to properly focus the minds of our politicians so that they accept the necessary changes that come out of these plans!

I know, that sucks, but really not the planners fault, just how things work in Ireland!

Actually it is to a degree the planners' fault.

They have had seven years to come up with at the very least a detailed plan for how bus routes should be organised post-LUAS BXD - instead they are still coming up with back of the envelope ideas barely three months ahead of the changes having to take place.

The politicians have a lot to answer for, but our planners have let us down.

It is ridiculous that the majority of public transport users are being treated in this way, and says an awful lot about the lack of a co-ordinated public transport policy in this country, along with (until recently) any understanding that the buses are the backbone of our public transport system.

I suspect that there will be a lot of further changes over the coming months after the initial set of changes are implemented until we get something that is close to acceptable in terms of journey times, city centre stops and overall traffic management.

antoinolachtnai

But they will all be small changes. Small changes won't really cut it,. Only a radical change to the bus system can address the problems the luas cross-city is going to cause for all motorised road traffic.

Spanish Eyes

The planners and politicians obviously don't use public transport. Big car parks up there in Wood Quay and Leinster House!

Parking permits should be rescinded for those involved in planning/legislating for public transport.

Wouldn't be long getting it sorted then.

I know, I know, it's meant to be tongue in cheek.

Pachal Donoghue should use some of that loot he's getting from AIB flotation to compulsorily purchase the city centre car parks. It is for the common good.

antoinolachtnai

If had a big bag of money, and he wanted to get rid of parking, it would make more sense to get rid of on-street parking to facilitate wider footpaths, bus and cycle lanes.

orangerhyme

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If had a big bag of money, and he wanted to get rid of parking, it would make more sense to get rid of on-street parking to facilitate wider footpaths, bus and cycle lanes.

There are plans to remove parking on the north quay to facilitate the Liffey cycle route and some councilors were complaining about loss of income for the council.
Councilor Burke I think, you can find the quotes online. Complete ignorance and madness.

Can anyone tell me why there is parking on both sides of South William street?

It cant all be for loading and services.
I understand that it cant be pedestrianised at the moment due to the car parks in the area and one way streets, but surely they could remove parking on one or both sides and make the footpaths wider than the couple of feet they are now.