BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Bray Head

Taking buses out of slow routes through housing estates will be a big improvement for lots of passengers who take longer, more direct routes.

The Bus Connects document was highly convincing that more frequent, more direct routes were the key to boosting use across the system. 


I don't think the drivers care very much about this. They are just showing their feathers in the permanent battle with management over pay and conditions.

brokenarms

devnull wrote: »

Drivers should have a say and be allowed to air their opinion, certainly and it should be considered, but ultimately it's not their job to make the final calls and the public must come first, it's called public transport after all.

Agreed.

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately providing all day direct bus services to/from the city center to/from each housing estate is a grossly inefficient use of resources and actually harms the frequency of many routes. Connecting buses in some cases will reduce journey times for many and vastly increase the frequency as well as well as allowing better use of resources.

But these people getting the bus in these estates are the end users. You said "it's called public transport after all." Why take the service from them? A sutable work around must be found . Out of rush hours services, many vulnerable people rely heavily on the service as there only way to get around. It has to be a service for everyone.

devnull wrote: »

It is the job of drivers to drive the bus and not other things. I've heard this enough times in the past when a passenger has asked for assistance with directions or onward connections and ticketing information. Nice to see that they won't help the passengers on the street but are prepared to meddle in things which there are people in jobs specifically for.

Well the fact is , its not their job to give tourist information or route info. I and many like me will help if i can. This is down to the person. If a bus is late with 90 people on board wanting to go home, I would not expect a driver to engage in a conversation with a customer. I would expect him to drive the bus. Hopefully the new signage planned with bus connects should reduce the talk time.

devnull wrote: »

Any attempts to frustrate the overhaul of the bus service must not be allowed to happen and BusConnects must put the customer first, right now they are being short changed and this seems nothing more than an attempt by the unions to take advantage of the fact that people are resistant to change so they can keep the current broken system going as it suits the unions to do so.

It has to be done right and these people have to be consulted. Passenger and transport workers alike. We can not have the NTA do what they want and screw everyone else. It will take as much time as it needs. I hope it will be fast also though. I am not against this new change.

devnull

Bray Head wrote: »

Taking buses out of slow routes through housing estates will be a big improvement for lots of passengers who take longer, more direct routes.

The Bus Connects document was highly convincing that more frequent, more direct routes were the key to boosting use across the system. 

Yes - but this has to also be augmented by ensuring that people outside these areas are not cut off completely from the network, especially if there housing estates are not within walking distance of high frequency routes.

For example, you can look at the situation like this

Present situation
Currently has one route every 20 mins to the city center via other housing estates and takes 60 minutes to reach the city center
Total time = 60 mins

Possible future
Has a route every 10 mins journey duration 10 mins to a QBC road, where there are 6 routes giving a combined frequency of every 4 minutes serving no housing estates whatsoever and doing the journey in 30 mins
Total time = 10 mins + 30 mins + 4 mins = 44 mins.

That's before the benefits that in the possible future scenario you would have access to a wider range of destinations beyond the city center and it would free up more buses to be then redeployed on orbital routes due to less duplication.

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

But these people getting the bus in these estates are the end users. You said "it's called public transport after all." Why take the service from them?

Nobody should lose a service altogether, I never said that, everyone should still have access to a service, but this idea that every single bus route should serve every single housing estate and everyone should have a direct bus to the city center regardless of how slow and poor use of resources it is, is a large part of why public transport take-up is so low and fails so many people.

Well the fact is , its not their job to give tourist information or route info.

And if the drivers have that viewpoint they are entirely entitled to it, but if they are using that argument that they are paid to drive the bus and bus drivers are there to drive the bus only and everything else is not their job, then they should also have no problem with allowing the relevant people to manage the routes because that is not the job of the drivers either.

I've no problem with drivers airing their views on changes, we live in a democracy and they are able to do that and I welcome it, what is not acceptable is that they try and frustrate the process of something that is not related to their role. If they argue helping the public is not in their job description so they won't get involved

It has to be done right and these people have to be consulted. Passenger and transport workers alike. We can not have the NTA do what they want and screw everyone else. It will take as much time as it needs. I hope it will be fast also though. I am not against this new change.

They should certainly listen to all key stakeholders and passengers when it comes to changes to public transport in this country and they are holding consultations at a few steps along the way with both bodies and the wider public, that has to happen and I would agree with you on that.

At the end of the day the NTA call the shots here whether you or anyone else likes it or not as they are the body that is responsible for transport in this country and in a proper functioning system should get the final say without a defiance of authority from unions or any kind of insubordination.

Stephen15

brokenarms wrote: »

But these people getting the bus in these estates are the end users. You said "it's called public transport after all." Why take the service from them? A sutable work around must be found . Out of rush hours services, many vulnerable people rely heavily on the service as there only way to get around. It has to be a service for everyone.

Fair enough some service should be kept in an area no problem with that. Highly frequent services shouldn't be venturing off main roads in order to serve housing estates. For example before Network Direct the 46a used to operate through Monkstown Farm every 10 mins after Network Direct it was moved out of Monkstown and rerouted on Kill Lane a quicker journey, however service in Monkstown Farm was retained in the form of a rerouted 63 every 30 mins to Dun Laoghaire as most passengers in Monkstown Farm were elderly people going to DL. A local route serves this adaquently rather than a cross coty that runs every 10 mins.

Bray Head

The Bus Connects proposal implies that the long, straight, frequent routes would need a lot of capacity. So the current fleet of double deckers run out of central garages would service these.

The orbital routes would be shorter, less frequent, take narrower routes with more turns, and would probably need less capacity. So what is needed is a fleet of smaller vehicles with smaller depots spread around the city. Otherwise you would have large amounts of buses driving to and from the start of routes and/or largely empty double deckers taking narrow turns in housing estates.

The problem is that DB does not have smaller vehicles anymore. The depots are mainly in the centre of the city, and none at all on the west side of Dublin.

I like pretty much all of what is proposed in Bus Connects. The problem is that it needs some combination of big investment by DB in depots and fleet and/or private operators entering the market to service the orbital routes. This is probably the biggest obstacle to its implementation and should not be underestimated.

bk

Bray Head wrote: »

The orbital routes would be shorter, less frequent, take narrower routes with more turns, and would probably need less capacity. So what is needed is a fleet of smaller vehicles with smaller depots spread around the city. Otherwise you would have large amounts of buses driving to and from the start of routes and/or largely empty double deckers taking narrow turns in housing estates.

The problem is that DB does not have smaller vehicles anymore. The depots are mainly in the centre of the city, and none at all on the west side of Dublin.

It would seem that the contract Go Ahead won was for exactly these sort of local routes (and orbital routes too) and that a big order of single decker buses was placed by the NTA, assumingly for DB and GA for exactly these sort of routes.

devnull

Believed to be 40 single decker buses on order by the NTA in addition to the 2 that are due to be delivered to DB as part of a separate order.

Bray Head

I am glad to hear it!

I would have thought that something like 200 to 300 would be needed if the Bus Connects approach is pursued.


I am not a bus-spotter but I would think that single deckers which are maybe 20% shorter and 5% narrower than current double-deckers would be ideal. They would give a lot more flexibility for getting around tighter corners down streets with a lot of parked cars.

devnull

Bray Head wrote: »

I am glad to hear it!

I would have thought that something like 200 to 300 would be needed if the Bus Connects approach is pursued.

I am not a bus-spotter but I would think that single deckers which are maybe 20% shorter and 5% narrower than current double-deckers would be ideal. They would give a lot more flexibility for getting around tighter corners down streets with a lot of parked cars.

It's not been confirmed the spec of the vehicles, but I would expect it to most likely be something like this

http://www.wrightsgroup.com/datasheets/StreetLite%20range%20with%20Daimler%20offerings.pdf & http://www.wrightsgroup.com/datasheets/RouteOne.pdf

There's also a longer variant.

dfx-

Bray Head wrote: »

I am not a bus-spotter but I would think that single deckers which are maybe 20% shorter and 5% narrower than current double-deckers would be ideal. They would give a lot more flexibility for getting around tighter corners down streets with a lot of parked cars.

When the tri-axle VTs are capable of operating the southern half of the 16 which I thought would have far too many tight city centre turns, there's no need for single deckers really in Dublin in terms of the service - no low bridges etc. There are certainly no routes where single deckers once were abundant and are now missed, for example the 123 or 150.

It would be more an 'efficiency' exercise in term of fuel economy and pollution levels and the such like, box ticking stuff.

punisher5112

Theses are points I believe would increase efficiency and speed of transport.

Better bus lanes and junction lay outs.
Priority traffic light changing.
Yellow box junctions controlled by CCTV.
Bus stops wide enough to actually allow dual door use and allow more then one bus at a time.
Restricted parking and update areas the are been abused and congested.
Change cycle lane layouts as what I see them putting in these days is bonkers.
Roads are been changed and road space narrowed in many areas such as city and dun laoghaire rathdown area making it extremely difficult for larger vehicles to move around safely.

Many many other things I would change to help speed things up.
Of course the ticket machines and fare structure another.

SG type buses also are slowing things up as when full people can't get off as aisles are narrow.

Better equipped vehicles with a better layout.

schemingbohemia

Comrade, not sure what all that has to do with Bus Connects. Perhaps you might enlighten us?

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Theses are points I believe would increase efficiency and speed of transport.

Better bus lanes and junction lay outs.
Priority traffic light changing.
Yellow box junctions controlled by CCTV.
Bus stops wide enough to actually allow dual door use and allow more then one bus at a time.
Restricted parking and update areas the are been abused and congested.
Change cycle lane layouts as what I see them putting in these days is bonkers.
Roads are been changed and road space narrowed in many areas such as city and dun laoghaire rathdown area making it extremely difficult for larger vehicles to move around safely.

Many many other things I would change to help speed things up.
Of course the ticket machines and fare structure another.

SG type buses also are slowing things up as when full people can't get off as aisles are narrow.

Better equipped vehicles with a better layout.

All things that may be considered during Bus Connects.

Why don't you submit your suggestions when it goes out to public consultation

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

All things that may be considered during Bus Connects.

Why don't you submit your suggestions when it goes out to public consultation

I wasn't aware its going out to consulting.... Or may have seen something here.

I've been flat out moving last 2 weeks so have missed a few bits.

orangerhyme

punisher5112 wrote: »

Theses are points I believe would increase efficiency and speed of transport.

Better bus lanes and junction lay outs.
Priority traffic light changing.
Yellow box junctions controlled by CCTV.
Bus stops wide enough to actually allow dual door use and allow more then one bus at a time.
Restricted parking and update areas the are been abused and congested.
Change cycle lane layouts as what I see them putting in these days is bonkers.
Roads are been changed and road space narrowed in many areas such as city and dun laoghaire rathdown area making it extremely difficult for larger vehicles to move around safely.

Many many other things I would change to help speed things up.
Of course the ticket machines and fare structure another.

SG type buses also are slowing things up as when full people can't get off as aisles are narrow.

Better equipped vehicles with a better layout.

All of this makes sense.
I'd make cashless tickets a priority.
Also optimize location of and distance between stops.
Speed, frequency, reliability and comfort are the priorities.
I've a lot of hope in Busconnects and Jarrett Walker.
The talk of the Metro north and DART underground is pie in the sky really.
Dublins future is a world class bus service.

I wouldn't neglect cycling either though, I think there's still big gains in usership to be made.
The Liffey cycle route was really important, but unfortunately a solution couldn't be found.
I cycle all over Dublin but it's the quays are the worst.

Dyr

orangerhyme wrote: »

I wouldn't neglect cycling either though, I think there's still big gains in usership to be made.
The Liffey cycle route was really important, but unfortunately a solution couldn't be found.
I cycle all over Dublin but it's the quays are the worst.

what they should be doing with cyclists is minimizing their impact on pedestrians and buses

LeinsterDub

Bambi wrote: »

what they should be doing with cyclists is minimizing their impact on pedestrians and buses

Go on. I'll bite. In what way does cyclists impact buses and pedestrians?

punisher5112

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Go on. I'll bite. In what way does cyclists impact buses and pedestrians?

Cyclists slow buses but the argument is also flipped.

Road design and bus stop design and cycle lane design are shocking to be honest.

All should be uniform and not be millions of different combo's.

Dyr

punisher5112 wrote: »

Cyclists slow buses but the argument is also flipped.

Road design and bus stop design and cycle lane design are shocking to be honest.

All should be uniform and not be millions of different combo's.

Indeed, give cyclists their own lanes so they don't impinge on pedestrians and buses as is their want

A little bit of zero tolerance enforcement to stamp out the bad habits and bobs your uncle, we're all moving at a faster clip

LeinsterDub

punisher5112 wrote: »

Cyclists slow buses but the argument is also flipped.

Road design and bus stop design and cycle lane design are shocking to be honest.

All should be uniform and not be millions of different combo's.

In most cases where cyclists 'slow' buses it's only slowed to the next traffic jam, bus stop or lights in heavy traffic in town. When traffic is lighter or the bus is in the suburbs the bus will over take the cyclist. A complete non issue

Tickityboo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In most cases where cyclists 'slow' buses it's only slowed to the next traffic jam, bus stop or lights in heavy traffic in town. When traffic is lighter or the bus is in the suburbs the bus will over take the cyclist. A complete non issue

It is an issue in bus lanes when you can't overtake because of backed up traffic on the outside lane.

Spanish Eyes

A single cyclist can hold up a bus for ages and leave bus in crawling mode on the N4 buslane coming into Palmerstown. Have seen it so often. And they have made the buslane so bus friendly there recently too with dedicated lights and so on.

It is amazing that one MILycra can hold up a rush hour bus with 80+ passengers. There is a garage there at the top of the hill, it has changed names so often I can't remember what it is now, but Topaz I think. I often wonder why a lone cyclist holding up a bus would not just go into the forecourt, let the bus go ahead, and then follow it out the exit of the garage.

So fkn frustrating to be sitting there crawling along because of ONE cyclist!

Ok I know it's a design thing, but a little bit of compromise would not go amiss, like the diversion into the garage forecourt for 10 seconds or something.

Yawn.... I await the opprobrium for my even suggesting that a cyclist should help other commuters out. BANG!

nilescraneo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In most cases where cyclists 'slow' buses it's only slowed to the next traffic jam, bus stop or lights in heavy traffic in town. When traffic is lighter or the bus is in the suburbs the bus will over take the cyclist. A complete non issue

Sit on the N4 morning or evening on one of the X routes being held to a crawl by cyclists in bus lane, with traffic in next lane so no room to overtake, and repeat that.

Carawaystick

Tickityboo wrote: »

It is an issue in bus lanes when you can't overtake because of backed up traffic on the outside lane.

Thats not people cycling slowing busses, its people in cars slowing busses.

Dyr

Nope, pretty sure that's people on bicycles slowing bus lanes. Move em out and we can get the buses moving

Spanish Eyes

Bambi wrote: »

Nope, pretty sure that's people on bicycles slowing bus lanes. Move em out and we can get the buses moving

Precisely. Where there is a footpath or a garage forecourt like I mentioned earlier, the cyclist should dismount until the bus passes (3 seconds maybe?) and then go on their way. Not holding up a bus that way are they?

I do realise that the design of bus lanes/cycle lanes sometimes leaves a lot to be desired, but honestly, I would be mortified as a cyclist to be holding up a bus with loads of weary commuters, just because I can.

Is it a form of silent protest or just pig headedness I often wonder.

The buses are not on the bus lane every minute either, so there is lots of time for cyclists to get back in the saddle and bike away where they can be a bit kind to other commuters. Instead of cycling ahead of a bus and everyone has to crawl along with them, tossers if you do this.

Tickityboo

Carawaystick wrote: »

Thats not people cycling slowing busses, its people in cars slowing busses.

Well when I'm driving a bus in a bus lane at 5mph and having to look at a fat arse in my eyeline because I can't get by it!!
I would say that the person on the bike is stopping the bus from making headway.

orangerhyme

Bambi wrote: »

what they should be doing with cyclists is minimizing their impact on pedestrians and buses

The only solution is segregated cycle lanes where possible, nothing too big, just a kerb will do.
Also cycle lanes should be behind bus stops, as opposed to in front.
Again, this isn't possible everywhere but is on some roads.

AlekSmart

orangerhyme wrote: »

The only solution is segregated cycle lanes where possible, nothing too big, just a kerb will do.
Also cycle lanes should be behind bus stops, as opposed to in front.
Again, this isn't possible everywhere but is on some roads.

+100% !

It is beyond belief that ANY so called proffessional would devise,design and install the typical Bus Stop/Cycle Lane infrastructure we take for granted in Dublin.

I can only surmise that many of our Local Authority's so called professional engineers did their degree in Hector Grey's University :mad:

And now,there is precedent from the Swords Road Stop 1626,where in spite of very obvious design deficiencies,a Judge held that the Busdriver was at fault....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/cyclist-who-collided-with-bus-passenger-awarded-15-000-1.2982217

Yield sign painted on the Cycle Lane..."Cyclists Yield to Pedestrians" sign hidden in overgrown bushes at the Bus-Stop.....but none of it matters ?

https://www.dublinbus.ie/RTPI/Sources-of-Real-Time-Information/?searchtype=map&searchquery=(53.404162,-6.240322,1626)

Stay safe out there !!!