BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

It is the job of drivers to drive the bus and not other things. I've heard this enough times in the past when a passenger has asked for assistance with directions or onward connections and ticketing information. Nice to see that they won't help the passengers on the street but are prepared to meddle in things which there are people in jobs specifically for.

Here is a bit of info that will stun readers.
I, like most drivers do not have a clue about routes that are not in my depot.
So when i get asked a question, "which bus goes to abc?" chances are i have no idea.
I might know if some asks for certain areas like dun laoghaire because of seeing many 46a, or 39 to blanch or 40 to finglas.
If the place you want to go to is not the terminus displayed on the front of a bus , good chance i dont know.
For example ask a driver from any depot other than donnybrook which bus goes to galloping green and you will get a reply of "dont know", ask dun laoghaire and 99% will know 46a.

bebeman

brokenarms wrote: »

It has to be done right and these people have to be consulted. Passenger and transport workers alike. We can not have the NTA do what they want and screw everyone else. It will take as much time as it needs. I hope it will be fast also though. I am not against this new change.

Drivers have yet to be consulted. Have the public?

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

Zero input has been sought from drivers, no so much as a questioner.
Do you thing this is wise?
Might drivers have a bit of insider knowledge that could be of use to those running bus connect?

There have been public and stakeholder consultations in the past and will be in the future, you should certainly submit your views in these and to my knowledge such views have been welcomed.

Drivers also clearly have an internal mechanism as they get to vote on every single bill and timetable so it's hardly like routes and bills are being forced on them one day without being allowed a say.

bebeman wrote: »

In many many jobs this would be called danger pay. Pay more and staff will turn a blind eye to certain things, its fairly common

Can you be clearer, are you saying:
People will turn a blind eye to operating safely if they are paid enough
OR
People are claiming there are safety issues to drum up support?

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

Here is a bit of info that will stun readers.
I, like most drivers do not have a clue about routes that are not in my depot.
So when i get asked a question, "which bus goes to abc?" chances are i have no idea.

So if you don't know, say that, don't say "it's not my job." because quite frankly when someone says something like that it does you no favour whatsoever and just makes people look like they are being awkward.

If the place you want to go to is not the terminus displayed on the front of a bus , good chance i dont know.

So you're essentially saying that people who are driving a route can't answer most questions about where that route actually goes apart from knowing what the terminus at either end is?

bebeman

Tickityboo wrote: »

Well when I'm driving a bus in a bus lane at 5mph and having to look at a fat arse in my eyeline because I can't get by it!!
I would say that the person on the bike is stopping the bus from making headway.

Stuck behind a cyclist for several hundred meters, finally get around him.
Go up the road and come to a stop at traffic lights, the dozy prick of a cyclist cant get around the bus because of no space, so mounts the pavement to get in front of the bus. Am now stuck yet again crawling along behind the prick waiting for chance to over take him. Repeat over and over again day in day out.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

The reason for it, is the fact that in future we will have multiple companies operating buses in Dublin, for instance Go Ahead will operate 10% of current DB routes and more might come in future. So obviously GA can't use DB's colour scheme.

A consistent colour scheme for all companies, similar to London, where all companies use the same red colour scheme is a very good idea.

However I agree that the colour schemes being offered look terrible IMO

And yes there are lots of other things that need to be fixed with buses too, this is just one small part of a much bigger picture.

If this is the level of effort put into the small things, then heaven help us when they try to do the big things.:eek:

They're all awful colours and there's no need for all-for-one livery. C is the only slightly different design, but the dominance of white is dreadful.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

Then you have the ultimate irony of the NBRU who moan about the fact that management are overpaid and useless, but time and time again we see examples where the managers are not being allowed to manager because there is constant interference from the driving grade who do not allow them to manage.

Care to share a few examples?

Your own post a little while back

So when drivers see management coming up with a idiotic plan we want the unions to try stop it..

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

They've also indicated that they may not require a common livery over the whole network and may allow operators to have their own versions which shouldn't even be up for debate.

I wonder if it is the result of pressure from Dublin Bus? If it is it doesn't bode well for the overall project if concessions are being made to operators already and questions the ability of the NTA to make decisions that parties may not like in order to deliver a fully centralised and intergrated system for the benefit of the passenger.

What if i told you it was go ahead who wanted a unique livery?

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

What if i told you it was go ahead who wanted a unique livery?

I'd point you to the fact that the Bus Connects proposal of a new livery was made months before Go-Ahead even won any tender to operate buses in Dublin and that talk of a TFI livery has been discussed for a long while before that.

Then I'd ask you to back-up your claims with a reputable source.

bebeman

liger wrote: »

Change of terminus.
New bills
First use checks
48hour week
loss of route
Any bus type training
Any additional training, ticket equipment etc.

new bills- zero payment
First use check- was a small payment, but look at the trouble driver got when wheel fell of bus. Took on legal responsibility for buttons
48 hour week- that was a paycut.
loss of route- get payment.
bus type and additional training- done on drivers time so you get 1 hour OT.

It that the best that posters here can provide?
Back up your statement with examples

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

Drivers also clearly have an internal mechanism as they get to vote on every single bill and timetable so it's hardly like routes and bills are being forced on them one day without being allowed a say.
?

In theory!
Route changes and bills are forced upon drivers, the company would like them to be agreed by all, but can and do impose them without agreement.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

Can you be clearer, are you saying:
People will turn a blind eye to operating safely if they are paid enough
OR
People are claiming there are safety issues to drum up support?

One example for you.
Many times drivers have been attacked at certain terminus and other anti social crap, bus is pulled out of the area by unions after drivers demand it.
Company want bus to terminate back in location,pays a bit of money and drivers go back into terminus.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

So if you don't know, say that, don't say "it's not my job." because quite frankly when someone says something like that it does you no favour whatsoever and just makes people look like they are being awkward.
?

You are only getting half of the story.
Person gets on bus asks " which bus goes to Ongar?"
Driver replies" sorry dont know"
passenger on occasion then goes "Your some useless prick, call yourself a effen driver"
Driver then replies "Not my job to know that".

You got the gist of it now?
If we know we will tell you

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

One example for you.
Many times drivers have been attacked at certain terminus and other anti social crap, bus is pulled out of the area by unions after drivers demand it.
Company want bus to terminate back in location,pays a bit of money and drivers go back into terminus.

If somewhere was really unsafe then getting extra money would make no difference to me at all because I'd hold the same view no matter how much money that someone threw at me unless I was overplaying the unsafe aspect to try and extract more money out of HR.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

So you're essentially saying that people who are driving a route can't answer most questions about where that route actually goes apart from knowing what the terminus at either end is?

No, your bias is showing with this question.
If im a 46a driver, im in city center daily. I know places along my route.
I daily see other buses from other depots.
I know nothing about these routes other than what is displayed on the front.
I know a 25 goes to lucan.
a 40 to finglas
a 39 to blanch and so on.
Now ask me how a 25 gets to lucan, i have no idea, not a clue where it stops on the way, same with the route of the 39 or 40.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

I'd point you to the fact that the Bus Connects proposal of a new livery was made months before Go-Ahead even won any tender to operate buses in Dublin and that talk of a TFI livery has been discussed for a long while before that.

Then I'd ask you to back-up your claims with a reputable source.

Can you back up yours that DB are rejecting a single livery

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

You are only getting half of the story.

You said that if the place someone wants to go is not the terminus that there is a good chance that you do not know where it is, which to me is surprising since I would expect that drivers would know the whole of the routes that they would drive rather than just the terminus.

You are talking about something completely different now and changing tack about different routes when you previously were speaking about not knowing about where someone is on your own route unless it was the terminus.

I don't expect Dublin Bus drivers to know every route on the network but I do expect them to know the route they are driving inside out and to be able to help people in relation to where to get off if they want to go to a destination that is on the route.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

If somewhere was really unsafe then getting extra money would make no difference to me at all because I'd hold the same view no matter how much money that someone threw at me unless I was overplaying the unsafe aspect to try and extract more money out of HR.

Money talks.
Irish army pay a bonus for overseas peacekeeping missions.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

Can you back up yours that DB are rejecting a single livery

Once again you're trying to deflect attention away from the fact that you've made a claim which you cannot back up by not answering it and then asking a question of your own to try and gloss over it.

I never said that DB are rejecting a single livery in the post you quoted, you will notice that my first post starts with I wonder which is not a statement of fact, merely a desire to know and an expression of being curious.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

You said that if the place someone wants to go is not the terminus that there is a good chance that you do not know where it is, which to me is surprising since I would expect that drivers would know the whole of the routes that they would drive rather than just the terminus.

You are talking about something completely different now and changing tack about different routes when you previously were speaking about not knowing about where someone is on your own route unless it was the terminus.

I don't expect Dublin Bus drivers to know every route on the network but I do expect them to know the route they are driving inside out and to be able to help people in relation to where to get off if they want to go to a destination that is on the route.

No, your bias is leading you to interpret it in a way that confirms your view.
Driver on the 46a would know destinations along the route.
Ask him how a bus gets from city center to lucan he would not know, all he would know from seeing the front of the bus is that a 25 goes to lucan.
Same for a 39 , he would know it goes to blanch but the route it takes would be unknown.
Do you understand now?

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

Money talks.

Are you saying that someones partner and kids would be happy for their spouse to go in very unsafe areas and possibly suffer a disabling or life changing injury as long as they bring home a few extra quid?

Or are you essentially saying that the risk is not that big so the little money that you get is worth it?

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

Once again you're trying to deflect attention away from the fact that you've made a claim which you cannot back up by not answering it and then asking a question of your own to try and gloss over it.

I never said that DB are rejecting a single livery in the post you quoted, you will notice that my first post starts with I wonder which is not a statement of fact, merely a desire to know and an expression of being curious.

I made no such claim.
I asked what if it was go ahead who wanted a different livery.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

No, your bias is leading you to interpret it in a way that confirms your view.

You stated:
If the place you want to go to is not the terminus displayed on the front of a bus , good chance i dont know.

These are your own words. I'm just simply taking what you say at face value, nothing more nothing less, you then changed tack and started speaking about completely different routes despite the fact initially you were talking about drivers not knowing places along a route that were not a terminus, outlined above.

Driver on the 46a would know destinations along the route.
Ask him how a bus gets from city center to lucan he would not know, all he would know from seeing the front of the bus is that a 25 goes to lucan.
Same for a 39 , he would know it goes to blanch but the route it takes would be unknown.

And I've explained twice already, that's fine and I would not expect them to know other routes, but that is not what you and me were talking about initially as outlined above.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

I made no such claim.

You stated

Can you back up yours that DB are rejecting a single livery

I never made a claim that DB rejected a single livery, I simply said I wondered if they did.

You made a claim that Go-Ahead asked for a single livery that you are yet to back up.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

Are you saying that someones partner and kids would be happy for their spouse to go in very unsafe areas and possibly suffer a disabling or life changing injury as long as they bring home a few extra quid?

Or are you essentially saying that the risk is not that big so the little money that you get is worth it?

Irish army peacekeeping forces go into very danger filled locations, they get paid a bonus for this.
Do you understand this concept of danger/hazard pay?
Bus terminus is danger zone.
We are not going there anymore after last attack.
company comes along we want you to go there, here is some money in acknowledgement that it is danger zone.
Its voted on by drivers of the route, if accepted drivers get money and go back to terminus.
Simple really, like a lot of things in life, you weigh up risk versus reward.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

You stated:
If the place you want to go to is not the terminus displayed on the front of a bus , good chance i dont know.
.

The important part is "A" bus.
The bus driven by the driver will be "MY" bus.
Understand now?

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

Irish army peacekeeping forces go into very danger filled locations, they get paid a bonus for this.
Do you understand this concept of danger/hazard pay?
Bus terminus is danger zone.
We are not going there anymore after last attack.
company comes along we want you to go there, here is some money in acknowledgement that it is danger zone.
Its voted on by drivers of the route, if accepted drivers get money and go back to terminus.
Simple really, like a lot of things in life, you weigh up risk versus reward.

I have to admit that I've often seen bus drivers compare themselves with a lot of jobs, but really trying to compare yourself with people who can be involved in countries where war is going on really doesn't do you any favours in my book.

But you've essentially said it there that the risk is not very big, because if it was a big risk no money would be able to buy you off as going home to your family and kids every night and supporting them would be more important than money.

But it seems that there is no risk of that happening so therefore I can only conclude that the safety argument is being used in a way to extract extra money.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

The important part is "A" bus.
The bus driven by the driver will be "MY" bus.
Understand now?

Apologies - genuinely misread at this late hour.

bebeman

devnull wrote: »

I have to admit that I've often seen bus drivers compare themselves with a lot of jobs, but really trying to compare yourself with people who can be involved in countries where war is going on really doesn't do you any favours in my book.

But you've essentially said it there that the risk is not very big, because if it was a big risk no money would be able to buy you off as going home to your family and kids every night and supporting them would be more important than money.

But it seems that there is no risk of that happening so therefore I can only conclude that the safety argument is being used in a way to extract extra money.

Risk versus reward.
Army have risk of death/ serious injury, get 1,000s to go on peackeeping mission.
Driver has risk of punch in face, gets 100s to go into dodgy area.
If it was a ruse to extract extra money it would be happening on every route a few times a year.
The fact is this is a infrequent thing.
I would bet routes will be removed from certain terminus in the next week due to halloween and fireworks being fired at parked buses. They will be removed for a few night until halloween is over and the fireworks are no more, zero money will be paid to go back to these terminus.

dublinman1990

I did put in a response to the bus livery survey. I didn't like the liveries as I thought they were very bland. I did say to TFI in the survey that if a selection of more liveries became available; the response from the public could have been better as to what is provided with the current options. I said this because TFI are not going to get a lot of discussion & creative potential with just providing four liveries to the public for a consultation. The interest you are going to receive from the public on this survey could be very small & overall probably very negative. I would say a maximum of between 6 to 8 liveries could have been useful to garner more positive discussion about what livery is suitable for Dublin's Bus network in the years to come. But the process in how this is going from TFI is not giving me a lot of confidence to be happy about it. I think members of the public who take part in this survey will have a very tough period in trying to decide what livery is best for Dublin's Buses.

I wonder if these livery options are going onto the BRT network as well as the regular bus routes in Dublin. If TFI said yes to that move as result of this survey being released online; well then there is not an awful lot of selection to go for to make it do-able for a potential livery. It feels like that this process will be a long struggle in itself to make a favorable conclusion to keep the public, the operators & TFI happy in the long run.