BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

tabbey

Stephen15 wrote: »

They look a bus gone to a fancy dress party dressed as a tram.

That is the idea - a make believe rapid transit.

Incidentally, Metz in Lorraine has something similar, but in different liveries to identify the route.

(I say Lorraine because while it has been part of France for most of the last century, it has been German from time to time, and the railway station was reputedly designed by the German Kaiser following the Franco - Prussian war of c1871.)

Carawaystick

bebeman wrote: »

Stuck behind a cyclist for several hundred meters, finally get around him.
Go up the road and come to a stop at traffic lights, the dozy prick of a cyclist cant get around the bus because of no space, so mounts the pavement to get in front of the bus. Am now stuck yet again crawling along behind the prick waiting for chance to over take him. Repeat over and over again day in day out.

Is the road you're driving on so narrow you can't overtake? or are there cars in the space you need to overtake another road user?

prinzeugen

Reading the section on buses going "cashless" tells me it was written by someone that does not travel by bus.

Cash fares are quicker than leap. At least 15 seconds faster per passenger.

They talk about tagging on and off.. Should be fun and will increase the time that a bus is at a stop presuming you will tag off as you leave the bus rather than at the stop.

Technology being forced upon us again without thinking about it. In the UK for example, the amount of cash transactions is increasing and the amount of contactless/mobile payment (non chip and pin) transactions are plummeting. (Bank of England figures)

People need to realise that public transport preforms a social service. Its not just there for the tech savy folks commuting to the 9-5.

markpb

prinzeugen wrote: »

Cash fares are quicker than leap. At least 15 seconds faster per passenger.

Cash fares are not quicker than using the self-service validator on the right. Cash fares are not quicker on the ticket machine, it's the transition from cash to Leap that takes time. If several people use their Leapcard on the ticket machine in a row, it'll be quick too.

prinzeugen wrote: »

In the UK for example, the amount of cash transactions is increasing and the amount of contactless/mobile payment (non chip and pin) transactions are plummeting. (Bank of England figures)

Can you back those figures up? I find it very hard to believe, especially the use of the word "plummeting". Here in Ireland, the use of cards is rising and, depending on the figures you read/trust, are over 50% compared to cash.

Debit card Point of Sale transactions, at €2.9 billion in June 2017, were 16 per cent higher than the same month in 2016. Credit card PoS spending was 5 per cent higher than in the same period in 2016. [...] Debit card e-commerce1 was €873 million in June compared to €857 million in March. The June value is 25 per cent higher than one year earlier.

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/statistics/data-and-analysis/credit-and-banking-statistics/credit-and-debit-card-statistics/2017q2_ie_credit_debit_cards.pdf?sfvrsn=4]Central Bank

Last year, the value of debit card payments exceeded the value of ATM withdrawals as consumers opted to pay with a card rather than with cash. Irish consumers made debit card payments worth, on average, € 7,442 in 2015, compared with € 5,388 per head in ATM cash withdrawals. Most consumers still rely on cash for low-value daily payments, and the BPFI estimates that the average cash payment in Ireland is €18, compared with about € 50 for debit cards and about € 80 for personal credit cards (€ 142 for business credit cards). Cash also accounts for a higher number of transactions; 491 per head compared with 148 transactions for debit card payments and 34 credit card payments.

Irish Times

loyatemu

prinzeugen wrote: »

People need to realise that public transport preforms a social service. Its not just there for the tech savy folks commuting to the 9-5.

this is the equivalent of "won't somebody think of the children" - who are you saying can't use Leap, or their phone, or a debit card?

bk

prinzeugen wrote: »

Cash fares are quicker than leap. At least 15 seconds faster per passenger.

No, cash is only faster then Leap when you have to interact with the driver. If you use the right hand validator it is MUCH faster.

I've told this story before, but I'll repeat it.

I'm on the bus and I see that at the stop ahead of us there are about 30 Spanish students and I sigh at how long this will take. But then I'm pleasantly surprised at how fast they board. Just a constant quick stream of beep, beep, beep as they all use the right hand Leap validator, almsot without breaking stride. In fact there was about 4 people paying by cash/driver interaction leap and just those 4 people took almost twice as long as the 30 Spanish students!

It really drove home for me how good Leap could be when properly implemented.

Eliminate the driver interaction, either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off and it will be way faster and we all benefit from faster journey times.

People need to realise that public transport preforms a social service. Its not just there for the tech savy folks commuting to the 9-5.

Their is nothing tech savy about using a contactless card, it is insanely simple. Hold your card against the reader and done, very simple.

And ironically almost every elderly person is already doing it as they now use contactless leap card for the free travel pass.

pclive

Compared with validators in London i find the Dublin Bus ones on the right to be extremely slow.

bk

tabbey wrote: »

That is the idea - a make believe rapid transit.

While it is true that it is a make believe tram look to it, it does bring a number of incredibly important improvements to Dublin bus services that are badly needed and which we would all greatly benefit from, namely:

- 4 or more doors. All doors open at every single stop, not just when the driver decides to bother and people enter/exit through all doors, just like Luas.
- No driver interaction, you tag-on/off off the bus at the stop, just like Luas
- Single decker so better utilisation of space, no more buses flying by that have empty seats up stairs or down the back on the lower deck, that looks full to the driver due to people standing by the front door. You can board through any door, so you fill the whole bus. Again like Luas.

All of these improvements will lead to a much lower dwell time and thus a much faster journey time for the passengers. Very positive changes and badly needed.

Stephen15 wrote: »

While I'm for the idea of a BRT I'm completely against having a separately branded BRT and treating it as a separate mode of transport to a normal bus. It should be fully intergrated into the Dublin city bus network.

The latest rumours about BusConnects seem to indicate we might get exactly that. I think we might end up with three types of service:

- Services more or less like what we have today.
- A BRT Lite service
- Full BRT

So on the core 16 routes, we will have 2 or 3 full BRT routes and the other 13 will be BRT Lite.

What will BRT Lite Look like:

- The DB double decker buses we have today, but only double door buses used on these core routes.
- Newly rebuilt, high quality bus stops built all along these routes.
- As a result of the above new bus stops, both doors most be used at all stops, no more excuses.
- Perhaps off bus Luas style ticketing at all of these stops, tag-on/off off the bus, no driver interaction.
- Fully contiguous bus lanes, all bottlenecks removed.

- If it goes well, maybe in future we will also see Berlin style three door, two stairs double deckers on these routes. Would be a great addition.

bk

pclive wrote: »

Compared with validators in London i find the Dublin Bus ones on the right to be extremely slow.

They could certainly do with an upgraded ticket machine, no argument on that.

lawred2

prinzeugen wrote: »

People need to realise that public transport preforms a social service. Its not just there for the tech savy folks commuting to the 9-5.

Are you saying people are incapable of carrying a card and holding it against a flat surface?

Is that what classes for tech savvy?

orangerhyme

Cashless is the way forward, its a no brainer really when you want to have people getting on and off through more than one door quickly.
Older people will have free cards anyway and disabled people also.
Its an insult to peoples intelligence that they wont be able to handle touching a card against a reader.

Im excited about the new BRT system.
Its the way forward rather than hoping for Metro north and Dart underground etc.
Metro north will cost 10 billion and take 10 years for just one route, whereas this can be done in 1 year for 1 billion and cover the whole city.

The main routes I assume will be Airport/Swords//Ballymun/DCU, UCD/Sandyford, Blanchardstown/Castleknock, Lucan/Ballyfermot, Tallaght/Terenure.

Another advantage is that it comes with some infrastrucure so it has a bit of permanence which helps develop areas, similar to how LUAS does.
But also its a fairly flexible in terms of routes and fuel type and fleet also.

IF they extended the Luas crosscity 2km to Finglas, then with the above routes you would have a large part of the city covered with high quality public transport.

lawred2

orangerhyme wrote: »

Cashless is the way forward, its a no brainer really when you want to have people getting on and off through more than one door quickly.
Older people will have free cards anyway and disabled people also.
Its an insult to peoples intelligence that they wont be able to handle touching a card against a reader.

Im excited about the new BRT system.
Its the way forward rather than hoping for Metro north and Dart underground etc.
Metro north will cost 10 billion and take 10 years for just one route, whereas this can be done in 1 year for 1 billion and cover the whole city.

The main routes I assume will be Airport/Swords//Ballymun/DCU, UCD/Sandyford, Blanchardstown/Castleknock, Lucan/Ballyfermot, Tallaght/Terenure.

Another advantage is that it comes with some infrastrucure so it has a bit of permanence which helps develop areas, similar to how LUAS does.
But also its a fairly flexible in terms of routes and fuel type and fleet also.

IF they extended the Luas crosscity 2km to Finglas, then with the above routes you would have a large part of the city covered with high quality public transport.

They are both the way forward (well MN at least)

orangerhyme

lawred2 wrote: »

They are both the way forward (well MN at least)

I mean its much more achievable in the short term and benefits much more people for far less cost.

Pixel Eater

What is happening with Swiftway, the BRT for Dublin? Is it likely to go ahead?

lawred2

orangerhyme wrote: »

I mean its much more achievable in the short term and benefits much more people for far less cost.

1 year seems a bit optimistic surely?

this is Ireland after all...

orangerhyme

Pixel Eater wrote: »

What is happening with Swiftway, the BRT for Dublin? Is it likely to go ahead?

BRT is part of the BusConnects plans.
Im not sure it will be called Swiftway, buts its definitely part of the plans.

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/putting-the-rapid-into-bus/

orangerhyme

lawred2 wrote: »

1 year seems a bit optimistic surely?

this is Ireland after all...

1 year is optimistic for the entire BusConnects plan to be finished, but I think they plan to phase it in, so its definitely possible to have one BRT route up and running in a year.

orangerhyme

https://www.infrastructure-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/infrastructure/new-glider-interactive-document.pdf

Thats a brochure for Belfast BRT, it looks great.

One thing I like is that they mention "Catalyst for local regeneration", I can imagine very busy interchanges and stops to become little hubs of commercial activity. also of course therell be impact on rent and house prices along the route.

orangerhyme

Another important benefit is that they have specially built stops to make it easier for elderly, disabled, moms with prams to board.

tabbey

bk wrote: »

No, cash is only faster then Leap when you have to interact with the driver. If you use the right hand validator it is MUCH faster

I use the right hand validator for my 30 day bus rambler. It always takes ages.

When I was a booking clerk on London Underground nearly 40 years ago, I often issued a ticket and gave change quicker than the 30 day rambler bus validation.

On the other hand, other people get through it quicker, and my other leap card which I use on the train, is reasonably quick at ticket barriers.

Is it my card, or the machine?

brokenarms

Cash is faster by far. But only if people have their money ready.
20 kids with one euro child fares takes no more than 2 seconds each.

On the other hand. The ejit on the phone who starts thumbling in a hand bag for change does my head in. .

bk

I think it is very noticeable at city center stops, where you have people paying cash/driver interaction Leap at the left and pass users on the right, the right hand queue always moves much, much faster.

Of course the ticket machines were ancient when they were introduced and really aren't fit for purpose from what I can see. New ticket machines (and maybe readers?) would likely speed it up, but really it is driver interaction that slows it down from what I see.

Of course if you eliminate driver interaction and cash, then all people can do is beep through, there should be less rooting for change in the pocket nonsense.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

I think it is very noticeable at city center stops, where you have people paying cash/driver interaction Leap at the left and pass users on the right, the right hand queue always moves much, much faster.

Of course the ticket machines were ancient when they were introduced and really aren't fit for purpose from what I can see. New ticket machines (and maybe readers?) would likely speed it up, but really it is driver interaction that slows it down from what I see.

Of course if you eliminate driver interaction and cash, then all people can do is beep through, there should be less rooting for change in the pocket nonsense.

They should have readers like the Luas where you touch on rather than hold on. The recent SG deliveries should have them but don't.

hmmm

bk wrote: »

I think it is very noticeable at city center stops, where you have people paying cash/driver interaction Leap at the left and pass users on the right, the right hand queue always moves much, much faster.

We are absolutely crying out for a second validator on busy routes. Such a simple and obvious change would speed up loading on many routes.

BonnieSituation

The bus driver is a second validator!

I don't know how many times I have gone up the left hand side of the bus while there is a throng queuing on the right hand side.

I usually get a seat as a result so I'm okay with the idiocy.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

They should have readers like the Luas where you touch on rather than hold on. The recent SG deliveries should have them but don't.

I suspect (but maybe wrong, only the engineers who look after these would truly know) that the issue is with the ticket machines themselves, rather then the readers.

The readers just read the cards, it is the ticket machine that has to process the information, record it and write it back to the card. I suspect that the very low spec (ram, cpu, etc.) of the machines is what is slowing it down.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The bus driver is a second validator!

I don't know how many times I have gone up the left hand side of the bus while there is a throng queuing on the right hand side.

I usually get a seat as a result so I'm okay with the idiocy.

Yes, once we get rid of both cash and driver interaction, then people could just tag-on both left and right, would help speed things up. Ticket machines in other countries have driver validators that make this more obvious.

Not the example I was looking for, I've seen better, but all I could find:

Dyr

the obvious answer is too embed readers into the backrests of seats, sit down tag on, getting off.. tag off

A few readers in standing positions downstairs and bobs your uncle.

never happen though

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

the obvious answer is too embed readers into the backrests of seats, sit down tag on, getting off.. tag off

A few readers in standing positions downstairs and bobs your uncle.

never happen though

Of course it won't happen, because it would lead to fare evasion on a scale never seen before.

prinzeugen

orangerhyme wrote: »

.
Its an insult to peoples intelligence that they wont be able to handle touching a card against a reader.
.

You would be amazed. I work in the Aviva and see thousands at every event struggle to put a ticket in a slot the right way.

prinzeugen

loyatemu wrote: »

this is the equivalent of "won't somebody think of the children" - who are you saying can't use Leap, or their phone, or a debit card?

This is the attitude I am on about. When was the last time you were on a bus in Dublin during the day?

Did you even notice the other passengers? How many OAPs do you think own a mobile or use the internet? Not that many.

Most people that use the bus only do so at peak times so all they see is suits and students.

Because that is all they see, they presume that they are the only people that use the bus.

Its the me, me, me attitude I can't stand. We must go cashless as it would be better for you and to hell with everyone else.