BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655497#Comment_121655497

The new network is here:

https://busconnects.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/big-picture-map-170920-oe-web.pdf

The A2 will go from Dundrum to the Airport.

Nothing else from south/southwest Dublin.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653729#Comment_121653729

Hi LX, What are the CBCs that have received PP?

Any news on how the A CBC is getting on in ABP if it is one of the ones still with them?

Also you might be able to answer this- regarding the next gen ticketing, will this allow you to scan on/ off the bus/luas/dart/metro (lol!) using your phone?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655369#Comment_121655369

It really is mad they can't do this quicker. Is it linked to complexity of weekly/monthly capping in the Leap card?

Even DCC managed to update every parking meter in the city with contactless. It just seems outrageous they can't do the same on the buses.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655497#Comment_121655497

You could take the W4 then connect to the N8 near Blanch, once the N8 is launched. Although without any bus lane improvements on those routes, especially along the M50, it certainly won't be quicker.

I'm also not sure if there'll be an easy way to switch from a northbound W4 to a northbound N8 (somewhere along the N3 road), without having to go right into Blanch S.C.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655903#Comment_121655903

I believe they are replacing the entire Leap backend system and moving to a cloud based system. That is a massive and complicated job.

It is definitely more complicated then just adding contactless to a parking meter or even basic ticket sales on something like a BE intercity coach. There is a lot of extra complexity with the need to support 90 minute tickets, capping, etc. Obviously those type of things aren't supported by simple tap to pay type systems. They require special EMV modes and complex accounting for it in the backend.

I think 2 years to roll something like this out is actually reasonable. My complaint would be more that they didn't start doing it say 3 or 4 years ago!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655825#Comment_121655825

Also you might be able to answer this- regarding the next gen ticketing, will this allow you to scan on/ off the bus/luas/dart/metro (lol!) using your phone?

Yes, that is the stated goal and shown in previous presentations on the project.

You will be able to use your phone, smart watch, fitness band and contactless bank debit and credit bank cards to tag on/off, along with likely continued support for Leap cards.

bikeman1

A flat €2 single fare with card should be possible before the full roll out. Yorkshire buses have something similar, it’s a flat £2 fare, tap your card and off you go. Nice and simple.

Lightleader78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657264#Comment_121657264

I think €2 90 minute fare is much better, and be able to use as many buses, trams and trains as needed to complet your trip. Then a €2 single fare for just taking the one bus.

Merricat

There's currently an Airport Hopper coach that goes to/from The Square Tallaght (via Liffey Valley) that I find really handy. Obviously not part of the 90 minute fare though.

I used to connect to the 757 bus from the 15 when it was still running pre-COVID, it wasn't a short journey though.

Merricat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121655497#Comment_121655497

Sorry, I meant to quote you in my last post, it was directed at you anyway!

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657264#Comment_121657264

Yes, that would be much simpler to implement.

However it wouldn’t work as a 90 minute ticket and daily and weekly capping wouldn’t work either. It also wouldn’t work with Luas or Dart. So it would be much less attractive then leap and frankly a step backwards.

When people say operator x, y and z have already implemented contactless payment and I go look, it is almost always the very simple example of the model 1 type EMV payments of either a single flat fare or interacting with the bus driver selling you a ticket like you might in a shop. These are all much less sophisticated setups.

What the NTA wants to do is more like what London and New York have done, which is model 2 EMV and in the case of NY even model 3 using account based ticketing. This is much more complicated than the simple model 1 examples, which the likes of BE expressway and Aircoach already support.

It will take longer to implement, but I do think it will be worth the extra time as it should mean a much better experience then the simple model 1 setups.

Stillnotworking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658141#Comment_121658141

Hi BK,

Just being nosey now, but what is type 3 EMV please, is type 2 a leap card. Thanks,

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658193#Comment_121658193

No worries.

EMV stands for Europay, Mastercard and Visa, the main credit card and payment companies. They created a group and standard called EMV contactless, which is the standard how contactless payments on your credit and debit card work and also Apple and Google pay.

10 years ago in London, TFL worked with EMV to create a new framework for how EMV would work on public transport, there defined three models:

• Model 1, simple tap to pay, like how it works in a shop
• Model 2, aggregated payment, when you tag on on the bus, you aren’t charged straight away, instead the ticket machine records you card and trip details, at night this info is uploaded to their servers, they work out things like daily and weekly capping and charge you the appropriate fare then.
• Model 3, you can buy tickets online and have them linked to your contactless card or smartphone, so you can then use them as a ticket. For instance if you were to buy a monthly ticket, you can apply your monthly ticket to your phone and use your phone as the monthly ticket on boarding.

So EMV actually covers all three models, while leap card isn’t any of them, it is different type of system.

The terminology they use is that this type of EMV system is called an open loop system, while Leap cards are called a closed loop system. Basically leap cards, like Oyster cards are their own thing, their own closed standard.

Think of it like building and maintaining your own system from scratch (Leap/Oyster) versus using open standards and standard off the shelf systems (EMV).

bk

BTW In related news, Irish Rail have now introduced e-tickets on all intercity routes except Belfast.

Your ticket is a QR code which you can print off or have on your phone and scan the qr code at the gate.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/it-will-save-millions-being-printed-irish-rail-launches-long-awaited-e-ticket-system-1635118

Nice that this has been introduced. Though I do think the EMV model 3 I mentioned above would be quicker than QR codes, scanning QR codes can be fiddly.

Stillnotworking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658267#Comment_121658267

Excellent, thanks for that, really appreciated the examples and definitions.

The Mathematician

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658141#Comment_121658141

Yes, dropping the 90 minute ticket would be a huge step backwards. If we are going to expect people to transfer between buses and/or modes then it is absolutely essential. To give one example, if I am going into town, the quickest method by public transport (the absolute quickest is by bike) is a bus followed by the Luas. Not having the 90 minute ticket would be a big disincentive to use public transport in cases like this, and I am sure there are many other similar cases, especially for journeys that do not either start or finish in the city centre.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658747#Comment_121658747

Who's talking about dropping the 90 minute fare. Its one of the key elements to the success of bus connects

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660189#Comment_121660189

A poster above was saying just to quickly introduce basic tap to pay with a flat fare. I and other posters pointed out that doing that, would mean that you wouldn't get the 90 minute fare (or daily/weekly capping) any more.

I don;t think anyone is really suggesting dropping it and the NTA have stated that they want to move 90 minute, etc. to the new contactless payment system. But this explains while the whole project is a lot more complicated than some people think.

The Mathematician

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660189#Comment_121660189

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause any alarm. There was the suggestion above that the new system could be introduced earlier with a flat fare. So I shouldn't have said drop, I should have said introduced the new system without a 90 minute fare.

Luckycharm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657805#Comment_121657805

Does Airhopper go 24hour? 15 starts beside me and wondered about getting it to Clarehall and then what bus went from there if that was an option.

It is a pain to try and get to airport on public transport even though only 20 mins down M50

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653651#Comment_121653651

Dublin in 2019 (or whenever it was cast in stone to stick to spines - 2017?) will be different to that of 2027. How many routes will have changed to reflect businesses or estates that come up or have fallen away since?

That's not restricted by staffing levels.

It comes back to the arbitrary deadline for changes and feedback.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660993#Comment_121660993

The basic structure of the network, (spines, radials, orbitals and locals) will still be correct - frequencies and local routing changes can still happen if demand dictates.

The C Spine timetables have changed several times to reallocate capacity to where it’s needed, the N4 & N6 had frequency changes off-peak and other non-BusConnected routes have changed too.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660894#Comment_121660894

Airport Hopper isn't 24 hours but it does start early from The Square - details are here: https://airporthopper.ie/

Why would you go all the way to Clarehall? There's no bus to the airport from there.

The options connecting with the 15 are by Dublin Bus the 16 (connect anywhere from Kelly's Corner to Dame Street) and the 41 (operates 24/7 from Lower Abbey Street), Dublin Express routes 782 (from Eden Quay) and 784 (from Hatch Street or the Custom House) and Aircoach route 700 from Westmoreland Street.

tom1ie

What are the chances of any QBCs being built outside of bus connects, but running in parallel to it? Ie delivered by the council or something but to NTA/TII/TFI spec.

My thoughts being a relatively small stretch of QBC to be built in both directions along Scholarstown way,Ballyboden way and killinniny road.

These roads are absolutely grid locked due to all the new developments along here and both the 15B plus the S8 orbital are always stuck behind traffic.

These new QBCs would link with the bus lanes on Taylor’s lane (which aren’t continuous but at least there’s some sort of bus lane!).

Journey times would be massivley improved and would take a lot of cars off the road.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664003#Comment_121664003

If i recall, there was some talk of some QBC type projects for some of the orbital routes, but they wouldn't be to the same extent as the current planned Bus Connects CBCs. And it would be tackled under a separate project.

Polar101

I've taken the W4 only a couple of times (from Blanchardstown shopping centre), but it's been a bit strange - every time the bus leaves 5-10 minutes late, and then either stops for another 5-10 minutes at the next stop, or drives very slowly on the M50. I assume it has something to do with the timetable where getting to Liffey Valley takes a lot less time than it says in the timetable. Just wondering if it's always like that?

Also, is there any progress in combining W61 and W62? I thought it was just a matter of making that one bridge more accessible to buses?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664023#Comment_121664023

Yeah that’s what I’d be hoping alright.

Any of the S8’s or 15Bs that I see heading from the old mill direction towards the ballyboden rd/ballyboden way roundabout, that are stuck in traffic, are quite busy.

Build QBCs specifically here, and you can run more busses more frequently with shorter journey times.

This would benefit people who can’t take the bus and are heading out of Dublin via car as well as those who would change to PT.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664003#Comment_121664003

Approximately 0.

The orbital cbcs were omitted from busconnects on cost grounds and DCC cannot competently deliver a single project. The newly paved liffey St has patches of tar on it btw.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664057#Comment_121664057

surely the council- who IIRC delivered the Taylor’s lane section of upgraded road complete with bud lanes (they could be better in all fairness) could deliver this relativley small and easy low hanging fruit section in parallel with BC?

There are wide sections of green grass running along side the road that can be used for the QBCs. Of course there would be utility diversion etc but this isn’t rocket science either.

The council could contract in some competent PMs if they don’t have their own.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664057#Comment_121664057

But we have massive amounts of money and I’m not talking about all orbital routes I’m talking about specifically this area.

It’s a no brainier!

StreetLight

We all know that there is practically zero enforcement of bus lanes at the moment by AGS.

Have Gardai given any sort of commitment to revisit policing of the planned new bus corridors? If not, the maximum benefits of the project will never be realised if there is the same couldn't-care-less policing attitudes from them.