BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

ongarboy

I just have one question about having to change buses..  For example will there never be direct buses from city centre to Ongar any more? ie will passengers always have to change from a B bus at Blanchardstown SC to a B1 or B2 depending on which area of Ongar they want to alight at?

Peregrine

ongarboy wrote: »

I just have one question about having to change buses..  For example will there never be direct buses from city centre to Ongar any more? ie will passengers always have to change from a B bus at Blanchardstown SC to a B1 or B2 depending on which area of Ongar they want to alight at?

There is no B bus. The section labelled 'All B' is a combination of B1 and B2.

B1 and B2 starts at different points in Ongar (with a frequency of 10-15 mins), converges at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre (now with a combined frequency of every 6-7.5 mins) and travels onward to UCD through the city centre on the exact same route.

TheChrisD

ongarboy wrote: »

I just have one question about having to change buses..  For example will there never be direct buses from city centre to Ongar any more? ie will passengers always have to change from a B bus at Blanchardstown SC to a B1 or B2 depending on which area of Ongar they want to alight at?

No. There won't be pure "B" buses. The B spine consists of B1's and B2's. The main thing is that because of their level of overlap, they can be timetabled in such a way as the main B spine has a high sustained level of service. Every B1 and B2 goes from Ongar to UCD, they just take slightly different routes through Clonsilla/Hunts/Harts.

Phil.x

TheChrisD wrote: »

No. There won't be pure "B" buses. The B spine consists of B1's and B2's. The main thing is that because of their level of overlap, they can be timetabled in such a way as the main B spine has a high sustained level of service. Every B1 and B2 goes from Ongar to UCD, they just take slightly different routes through Clonsilla/Hunts/Harts.

So b1 and b2 going through the blanch sc the same as they are today will not result in quicker journeys just more frequent loooong journeys!? And people are ment to be happy about bus connect.

I can see people alone the navan road will be happy with the extra frequency but not the poor souls who live further out in clonsilla, ongar area who have an unbearable travel time.

Will there be less bus stops on the b1/b2 route

Will the 39x continue?

Qrt

Phil.x wrote: »

So b1 and b2 going through the blanch sc the same as they are today will not result in quicker journeys just more frequent loooong journeys!? And people are ment to be happy about bus connect.

I can see people alone the navan road will be happy with the extra frequency but not the poor souls who live further out in clonsilla, ongar area who have an unbearable travel time.

Will there be less bus stops on the b1/b2 route

Will the 39x continue?

This is only a fraction of the BusConnects project. The bus lane programme should help a lot, as will the fare payment overhaul.

39x seems to be earmarked for a replacement by the 360 and 363, with the former serving Damastown and the latter serving what I believe to be Huntstown/Hartstown.

Map here.

MJohnston

Phil.x wrote: »

So b1 and b2 going through the blanch sc the same as they are today will not result in quicker journeys just more frequent loooong journeys!? And people are ment to be happy about bus connect.

I can see people alone the navan road will be happy with the extra frequency but not the poor souls who live further out in clonsilla, ongar area who have an unbearable travel time.

Will there be less bus stops on the b1/b2 route

Will the 39x continue?

Extra frequency = Increased usage
Increased usage = Less traffic on the road
Less traffic on the road = Faster bus journeys
Faster bus journeys = Fewer miserable people living in Ongar

r93kaey5p2izun

Serious work will need to be done on fixing the congestion problems in the city centre to stop it causing cancellations and curtailed routes.

Currently the 25a regularly does not operate several of its peak departures from the city centre because, according to DB, there are such severe delays for incoming buses on the the quays. Many of these buses also depart from the quays and skip the start of the route from Merrion Square for the same reason.

From the map it appears the replacement for the 25a will now be starting in Sandymount so even more scope for severe delays causing cancellations and curtailments.

I like the idea of the plan from what I can see - I use a mix of buses for Clondalkin, Lucan and North Kildare every week. The proposed local loops and connectors look promising. The only big complete negatives I see is the Celbridge bus having to go through Leixlip now and a loss in service for Chapelizod. That will be a massive pain.

But I'm very sceptical of it being implemented properly. 10 years ago I was very happy with the bus service and feel it has deteriorated significantly in the past 7 years or so to the point where minimum 6 buses a week I go for just don't run - mostly the 25a which seems to be the most unreliable bus service in existence. I really hope this improves things.

howiya

Jarrett Walker was on Today with Sean O’Rourke earlier. Podcast available on their website for anyone who missed it

Boulevardier

I have given this plan some thought, and though I am generally supportive of public transport improvements, I think this plan is a disaster waiting to happen.

By the time bus users realise what has been done to them it will be too late to reverse it.

I will be supporting the retention of the present network. Does anyone else on this thread think the same?

L1011

Boulevardier wrote: »

I have given this plan some thought, and though I am generally supportive of public transport improvements, I think this plan is a disaster waiting to happen.

By the time bus users realise what has been done to them it will be too late to reverse it.

I will be supporting the retention of the present network. Does anyone else on this thread think the same?

Care to explain why you think that before canvassing for support maybe?

Boulevardier

Firstly, because far too many things can and probably will go wrong.

Secondly, the likely changes, even if they do not go wrong, are hugely disruptive. They will certainly make my life a lot harder, and I bet that goes for many others.

Phil.x

MJohnston wrote: »

Extra frequency = Increased usage
Increased usage = Less traffic on the road
Less traffic on the road = Faster bus journeys
Faster bus journeys = Fewer miserable people living in Ongar

1. Extra frequency = more choice for existing passengers and not increased usage, if the bus route it too long and slow people will not use it like me.

2.extra frequency =more gridlock especially in blanch sc.

3. More traffic on roads as people switch back to cars as bus journeys worse than ever.

4.people in ongar thankful for over overcrowded trains as bus just dosent work, but that's them I don't live in ongar.

MJohnston

Boulevardier wrote: »

I have given this plan some thought, and though I am generally supportive of public transport improvements, I think this plan is a disaster waiting to happen.

By the time bus users realise what has been done to them it will be too late to reverse it.

I will be supporting the retention of the present network. Does anyone else on this thread think the same?

So what's your proposed alternative to preventing the bus network from completely falling apart? The centre cannot hold.

MJohnston

Phil.x wrote: »

1. Extra frequency = more choice for existing passengers and not increased usage, if the bus route it too long and slow people will not use it like me.

Incorrect. Frequency improvements have been noted to increase usage the world over.

2.extra frequency =more gridlock especially in blanch sc.

Nope, not if relevant bus-only infrastructure is introduced in parallel (as will be expected to happen). It wouldn't even require a reduction in car traffic, just bus priority (something that is extremely feasible for suburbia).



Also your focus on a single shopping centre is deeply myopic.

3. More traffic on roads as people switch back to cars as bus journeys worse than ever.

Irrelevant, as this is based on your incorrect previous assumptions.

Amirani

burtz wrote: »

The breakdown of this cost by hours, kilometres and fleet tells us that the vast majority of the investment in new service is provided off-peak.
This is obvious by the relatively small increase in peak vehicles, compared to the significant increase in total hours. Based on the relative proportion of peak to off-peak services, it appears that while the total vehicle service hours would increase by 27%, peak service hours would only increase by 10%.

I'm not sure the above is "obvious" at all based on the produced plans, you're making some big assumptions.

Also, while capacity isn't an issue off-peak, there's plenty of other off-peak issues; particularly frequency and reliability, which this plan will seek to fix. You go on like off-peak bussing in Dublin is a dream, in reality it's a completely disaster and anyone with a brain drives or cycles.

Also missing in your economic argument is any suggestion that passenger revenue might increase with increased bus usage, or that negative externalities will be offset by same; thus potentially providing a net economic gain to the State. We don't have sufficient public information on this that I can see, but it's surely a large consideration in this project.

markpb

burtz wrote: »

So we are going to end up paying MILLIONS of money for only a 10% improvement in service where we really need it. Jarret is a spoofer, a chancer, no doubt in my mind, he has no idea about transport in Dublin

That's a hell of a jump. Yes, it will cost more to operate more services. I'm sure the NTA are well aware of it. How you got from that to him being a spoofer is beyond me! At least the rest of the people bashing BC in this thread have tried to defend their opinions.

Peregrine

burtz wrote: »

Jarret is a spoofer, a chancer, no doubt in my mind, he has no idea about transport in Dublin

Then it's a real mystery why cities all around the world keeps hiring him and how he succeeds every time.

I suppose you're an experienced transport planner yourself since you're confident enough to call someone with 20 years experience in the field a spoofer?

Geuze

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Two fares now will still mean interraction with the driver for the lower one trip fare presumably?

Unless one can buy a book of "one trip fare" tickets for the short journey and validate like the LEAP or something, mutters and thinks that would make sense... even in the short term until there is a flat fare no matter where you are going.

German cities typically have a short-trip ticket, and then regular tickets, sometimes zonal.

For example:

Short-trip = K
Ticket for zones AB
Ticket for zones ABC

No driver interaction, unless you choose to buy from driver.

markpb

burtz wrote: »

he has been found out as a chancer, mark my words

He has been? Where? Or do you mean that he will be?

Setting that aside, all he's saying is that our bus network should consist of high-frequency core routes, encourage transfers where they make sense, add some more/better orbital routes and simplify the fare structure. What part of that depends on the width of the street for success?

Let's be honest here. You work for DB so you hate the NTA and all that they stand for. The NTA hired in a consultant so you feel that you should hate him too. The petulant anti-NTA rhetoric that has been coming from DB staff over the last few months is getting tiring. Based on the posts here lately, you'd swear DB was a perfect haven of public transport until the dreaded overlords of the NTA came along to ruin it for everyone. I have news for you: your customers don't think the same.

Phil.x

MJohnston wrote: »

Incorrect. Frequency improvements have been noted to increase usage the world over.





Nope, not if relevant bus-only infrastructure is introduced in parallel (as will be expected to happen). It wouldn't even require a reduction in car traffic, just bus priority (something that is extremely feasible for suburbia).



Also your focus on a single shopping centre is deeply myopic.





Irrelevant, as this is based on your incorrect previous assumptions.

Putting more buses on a incredible long and slow route isn't going to make it more favourable to people who avoid it because of that, it's still going to be a long and slow route even with extra buses.

And to add, your points are all invalid as you a bus fanboy so not matter what is said by joe public they will always be wrong to you, a bit like an alcoholic wine connoisseur, everything is great.

LeinsterDub

burtz wrote: »

What do you think the running time is going to be for the E spine?
Ballymun to Bray
Consider the following, the 145 can regularly take over 120 minutes too travel from Houston to Bray, it is regularly full by Nassau street, how will it cope with a huge catchment area added on to the route before it even gets to Nassau street.

We are looking at busses packed in rush hour before they get to Nassau street and 150+minute running time, that will be a complete and utter failure.

Why would you go Ballymun to Bray on the bus . Get the bus to the Dart. change FOC .

LeinsterDub

burtz wrote: »

s , when the answer is available for free

What is this simple and free answer?

G_R

burtz wrote: »

Probable the same people who get the bus from Hueston to Bray

But under this new system those people will have the option to get a luas to Connolly and then get a dart to Bray all for the one fare

bk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Sure the N2 radial need better frequency than every 20-25 minutes?

The N2 looks like great, finally it allows people from all along Griffith Avenue to access Phoenix Park, Hueston Station, Clontarf Dart Station and East Point Business Park (change at Clontarf Dart station to business park bus) without needing to get a bus into town first and then back out. It fixes a very obvious gap IMO and is exactly the type of orbital service we need.

But yes, it isn't frequent enough IMO.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ideally the bus would go from my doorstep to the doorstep of where I want to go but that's not practical. Gardiner Street should have much higher bus usage.

I note they are planning to have the A routes, the current 16, 13, 41, etc. go down Gardiner Street, around Custom House and along the quays.

I get why they are doing that, but it will be controversial, lots of people from the Northside get off at O'Connell St to shop at Henry St. Gardiner Street is a bit far and a bit of a pain to walk to/from.

bk

I think overall, this looks very positive. If all this can get done, along with the improved bus lanes and fixing ticketing, dwell time issues, 24/7 services, then we would finally fix most of the issues with buses in Dublin.

I know it won't be easy, but it is badly needed if we want to keep our city moving and growing.

LionelNashe

bk wrote: »

....


I note they are planning to have the A routes, the current 16, 13, 41, etc. go down Gardiner Street, around Custom House and along the quays.

I get why they are doing that, but it will be controversial, lots of people from the Northside get off at O'Connell St to shop at Henry St. Gardiner Street is a bit far and a bit of a pain to walk to/from.

As someone who used to live in Mountjoy Square, I can see a few benefits for people in that area though. Hopefully, people who are in favour of the changes make submissions to the consultation process and balance the complaints.

LionelNashe

Are there specific details out yet of which roads will be widened/changed over the next while? I was on the 16 bus yesterday from Beaumont area, and it was stuck behind a line of cars on Collins Avenue by the bingo hall before it turned left towards town and got onto a bus lane. One the one hand, I can see some merit to getting the buses past this stretch more quickly, but on the other hand, do residents and pedestrians want another lane (or two) added to Collins Avenue at that point. I'd be very curious to see how they're planning to deal with these kinds of places.

L1011

Boulevardier wrote: »

Firstly, because far too many things can and probably will go wrong.

Secondly, the likely changes, even if they do not go wrong, are hugely disruptive. They will certainly make my life a lot harder, and I bet that goes for many others.

So you want to retain an utterly nonfunctional network for personal benefit.

Fairly sure thats the answer everyone expected

How about identifying any specific causes of problems - having to change bus is not a problem - and making a worthwhile submission

bk

LionelNashe wrote: »

Are there specific details out yet of which roads will be widened/changed over the next while? I was on the 16 bus yesterday from Beaumont area, and it was stuck behind a line of cars on Collins Avenue by the bingo hall before it turned left towards town and got onto a bus lane. One the one hand, I can see some merit to getting the buses past this stretch more quickly, but on the other hand, do residents and pedestrians want another lane (or two) added to Collins Avenue at that point. I'd be very curious to see how they're planning to deal with these kinds of places.

The plan is for road widenings throughout the city, including the removal of onstreet parking, etc.

I'm not sure there is a plan for Collins Avenue, it wasn't part of the outline that was published two weeks ago.

I think the 16 will be becoming the A2 and won't be going to Beaumont any more. Instead Beaumont will be serviced by the A1, though that will use the same route you mention.

LionelNashe

North & west of the centre, there's a bit of a pattern to the lettering that should help people remember which route is which.

A --> Airport
B --> Blanchardstown
C --> through Chapelizod, on to Celbridge
D --> Through Donnycarney (I know, I'm reaching now).
E --> Ikeeeeeea
F --> Finglas
G --> Can't think of one for this.