BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

Capel Street would be a great option as a two way bus only street carrying the A/E routes over to George's st

Yeah but presumably they want the Connolly interchange for the A spine, and the O'Connell Street/Luas interchange for the E spine?

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

My only gripe is that there seems to be complete ignorance that Church St Chancery St Jervis St and Capel St exist and can provide good north-south access.

Remember the goal is to avoid the city centre and duplication. These are all accessible from the Red Line.

thomasj

dfx- wrote:

The 10, 51B, 51C, 77, 78A and 27 were not falling apart at the seams operationally at least (you could set your watch by the 51B and 51C), so why are they now...

One little thing, the majority of those routes you mentioned, terminated in the city centre, given the way the city centre is today , it wouldn't be possible to maintain these routes in the form they were ?

cgcsb

College Green, Parnell Sq, and O'Connell St will be congested with buses under the plans, and there are plenty of alternatives. I see they plan on using Gardener St more which is positive. Even assuming a total car ban College Green and no east-west movements it'll still be extremely busy. The plan also requires a North-Quays and Parliament st car ban to work.

To add future capacity we'll need to add more north-south streets to the network. In my view there should be a total taxi ban on using the core route bus lanes also to ensure reliability. Cruicially we also need ENFORCEMENT via front facing cameras on buses and fixed cameras at key junctions. The present bus lanes mean nothing to drivers, so the newer versions won't be any different if there's no enforcement.

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

You don't need to be a world recognised expert for 20 years to spot the problem with the 40 and 13, 4 and 27 and 16 amongst a handful of others - 39A being another. It's almost all caused by Network Direct joining up two routes to save money, cut services and cut capacity. Ten years ago.

The 10, 51B, 51C, 77, 78A and 27 were not falling apart at the seams operationally at least (you could set your watch by the 51B and 51C), so why are they now...

What should not be the case is that the problems with the 27 and 40 impacting the 70 or any other number of routes which are fine as they are.

Thi is actually a very pertinent point,and possibly not fully on Jarrett Walkers NTA supplied brief.

Network Direct was a Surival Strategy,and as such,it worked.
The significant error,was in having Bus Atha Cliath remain operationally in Network Direct mode for a decade.

What has now evolved is the development of a Bus Based public transport requirement,which BAC were slow to recognise,and even slower to respond to,as the management ethos remained firmly in "Survival" mode.

I am a supporter of Jarret Walkers approach from the outset,however I am somewhat disappointed with the finished package from a frequency POV.

In PT terms,"frequency sells",always has done,and always will.
Turn Up and Go,but apart from a few routes,Im less than confident that 15-40 headways on the outer/peripheral routes will actually attract folks on to the bus as a viable alternative.

All of this plan,is conjecture,until the completion of this "Public Consultation" phase,always a red-warning light,in Irish terms as it almost certainly,will result in compromises at the very locations where direct and unequivocal action is the best action in the Greater Good.

It is perhaps just as well the NTA has emphasised at an early juncture,the "10- Year Plan" nature of the package,as I genuinely see this basically sound,sensible and desirable plan as rapidly becoming mired in the Irish equivalent of a bureaucratic swamp.

College Green stands,in full technicolour glory,as the template for BusConnects 2018.
Let's see if anybody has the bottle to take executive action and sort it out ? :eek:

Thrashssacre

Pretty happy with the plan overall (Clondalkin based) only problem I'd have is the lack of connection to clondalkin train station it's the only station on the heuston line that's been left out despite many routes passing nearby

Pity the W2 wasent routed past the station as the 9th lock road is a nightmare at peak times.

AlanG

Phil.x wrote: »

So b1 and b2 going through the blanch sc the same as they are today will not result in quicker journeys just more frequent loooong journeys!? And people are ment to be happy about bus connect.

I can see people alone the navan road will be happy with the extra frequency but not the poor souls who live further out in clonsilla, ongar area who have an unbearable travel time.

Will there be less bus stops on the b1/b2 route

Will the 39x continue?

Bringing so many routes into the Blanc Center seems to be a recipe for disaster given that for most of November and December it it already at a standstill and will add 20-30 mins to any journey. Also expecting people form the Clonsilla road, blanch village and waterville to travel back out to the center through the associated traffic before going into town seems like a massive addition to any journey. An interchange at the hospital flyover near the M50 would make a lot more sense.

AlekSmart

AlanG wrote: »

Bringing so many routes into the Blanc Center seems to be a recipe for disaster given that for most of November and December it it already at a standstill and will add 20-30 mins to any journey. Also expecting people form the Clonsilla road, blanch village and waterville to travel back out to the center through the associated traffic before going into town seems like a massive addition to any journey. An interchange at the hospital flyover near the M50 would make a lot more sense.

This is where the Ten-Year Plan element comes into play......expect this to suffer from Administrative Pushback...:(

Qrt

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And for every route (and let's be honest here you mean a certain section of the route when the frequency happens to match your timetable perfectly). I'll show you 4 that are falling apart at the seams. Let's start with the 40, 13 ,4 and 17a

I was walking through Mount Brown yesterday and one 13 and four 40's passed by within a stretch of 500m. I later saw the RTPI with an 18min wait for the next 40.

L1011 wrote: »

Permeability measures are in basically every new planning requirement, if even a small development is going in that could increase permeability the council will be interested in it. Often residents associations are actually against it due to insane ideas that it'll "make it easier for burglars".

Two 1990s estates in Maynooth will be getting new pedestrian entrances (one of them in two different places) to a new estate that'll cut probably 25 minutes off getting to the 67/future W8 route. 25 minute walk plus journey time means people currently would always drive any short trip.

Thankfully planners seemed to have copped on about this. My estate has no cul de sacs of significance, but there is a wall surrounding it with two vehicular entrances and another two pedestrian entrances into the neighbouring Celtic Tiger era estate. Some wagon in the residents' assoc. facebook group tried to get the council to block the whole thing off, turning my 1.5km walk to the luas (800m as the crow flies) into a 2km walk. I objected, got told it was to "stop the undesirables", most of which live in the estate anyway, then got removed from the group.

CircleofLife

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Pretty happy with the plan overall (Clondalkin based) only problem I'd have is the lack of connection to clondalkin train station it's the only station on the heuston line that's been left out despite many routes passing nearby

Pity the W2 wasent routed past the station as the 9th lock road is a nightmare at peak times.

Just curious, as a fellow Clondalkin person, what are you happy with? We are losing 3 direct connections to the city. From the part of Clondalkin that I am in (village) I will now need to get 2/3 buses to work (Aungier St). Two of those buses have a 15 minute wait, so there is no increased frequency at all for those lines. I personally will go from having the option of 3 buses that leave me close enough that I can walk to 2 that will leave me on the other side of the city, and then at least one more to get to work. I'm disabled so this will leave me totally exhausted before I even start work, especially given how packed the connection buses will be by the time I get onto them- and there is zero hope of being offered a seat as I don't look disabled.

Anyway, sorry for the rant!

Qrt

CircleofLife wrote: »

Just curious, as a fellow Clondalkin person, what are you happy with? We are losing 3 direct connections to the city. From the part of Clondalkin that I am in (village) I will now need to get 2/3 buses to work (Aungier St). Two of those buses have a 15 minute wait, so there is no increased frequency at all for those lines. I personally will go from having the option of 3 buses that leave me close enough that I can walk to 2 that will leave me on the other side of the city, and then at least one more to get to work. I'm disabled so this will leave me totally exhausted before I even start work, especially given how packed the connection buses will be by the time I get onto them- and there is zero hope of being offered a seat as I don't look disabled.

Anyway, sorry for the rant!

Just looking at the map, could you not the D3 to the O? Though I will admit I have no idea how close Aungier Street is to the canal, whole thing is George's Street to me.

Thrashssacre

CircleofLife wrote: »

Just curious, as a fellow Clondalkin person, what are you happy with? We are losing 3 direct connections to the city. From the part of Clondalkin that I am in (village) I will now need to get 2/3 buses to work (Aungier St). Two of those buses have a 15 minute wait, so there is no increased frequency at all for those lines. I personally will go from having the option of 3 buses that leave me close enough that I can walk to 2 that will leave me on the other side of the city, and then at least one more to get to work. I'm disabled so this will leave me totally exhausted before I even start work, especially given how packed the connection buses will be by the time I get onto them- and there is zero hope of being offered a seat as I don't look disabled.

Anyway, sorry for the rant!

I'm very close to the core of the villiage so the D3 and 63 will be within a 5 minuite walk tmfor me so my frequency to town is fine also the D3 seams to be taking a route which will be faster then the 13 at peak times due to having bus lanes the entire way (apart from watery lane and the Kylemore road though I suspect that may change) I'm much better connect to rail and Luas (with the standard 90 minute Luas/bus/Raul fare this will be of much use considering how fast the heuston commuter is especially when compared to bus times at peak) and overall more journeys are possible within a reasonable journey time

Sorry to hear about your specific case but I feel overall Clondalkins changes will be positive and there is scope in the public consultation to improve it even further especially with the 255 which i feel due to the w4 and 256 serves no real purpose.

CircleofLife

Qrt wrote: »

Just looking at the map, could you not the D3 to the O? Though I will admit I have no idea how close Aungier Street is to the canal, whole thing is George's Street to me.

The D3 does not connect to the O. It connects to either the LUAS or the D which both then connect to the O. I just realised that I misread the waiting times for the D line- it's every 7 minutes, not 15. But that is still changing one 15 minute wait to one 15 minute wait and two 7 minute waits- basically doubling the waiting time, potentially with an added walk at the end.

I am so confused and stressed by all this at the moment.

LeinsterDub

CircleofLife wrote: »

The D3 does not connect to the O. It connects to either the LUAS or the D which both then connect to the O. I just realised that I misread the waiting times for the D line- it's every 7 minutes, not 15. But that is still changing one 15 minute wait to one 15 minute wait and two 7 minute waits- basically doubling the waiting time, potentially with an added walk at the end.

I am so confused and stressed by all this at the moment.

The will be no D buses. A D3 will follow the D corridor.

Stephen15

The scaremongering is alive have they even read the proposals?

http://wicklownews.net/2018/07/worry-and-outrage-over-ntas-plans-for-the-bray-145-bus-route/

Telchak

CircleofLife wrote: »

Qrt wrote: »

Just looking at the map, could you not the D3 to the O? Though I will admit I have no idea how close Aungier Street is to the canal, whole thing is George's Street to me.

The D3 does not connect to the O. It connects to either the LUAS or the D which both then connect to the O. I just realised that I misread the waiting times for the D line- it's every 7 minutes, not 15. But that is still changing one 15 minute wait to one 15 minute wait and two 7 minute waits- basically doubling the waiting time, potentially with an added walk at the end.

I am so confused and stressed by all this at the moment.

D3 doesn't connect t to D with a switch, it is D. The D spine will have all the D buses traveling the core section, and then fork at the ends.

murphaph

CircleofLife wrote: »

The D3 does not connect to the O. It connects to either the LUAS or the D which both then connect to the O. I just realised that I misread the waiting times for the D line- it's every 7 minutes, not 15. But that is still changing one 15 minute wait to one 15 minute wait and two 7 minute waits- basically doubling the waiting time, potentially with an added walk at the end.

I am so confused and stressed by all this at the moment.

The D3 makes up the D. There is no D bus. D buses are D1, D2 etc. buses coming together at a certain point and following the same route.

Thrashssacre

CircleofLife wrote: »

The D3 does not connect to the O. It connects to either the LUAS or the D which both then connect to the O. I just realised that I misread the waiting times for the D line- it's every 7 minutes, not 15. But that is still changing one 15 minute wait to one 15 minute wait and two 7 minute waits- basically doubling the waiting time, potentially with an added walk at the end.

I am so confused and stressed by all this at the moment.

The D is just a corridor where all D suffix busses will run (D1, D2, D3 and D4) giving a 5 minuite or less wait time to anyone traveling within the corridor at the end of the corridor the routes then separate towards there final destination giving a 10-15 minuite frequency then the D3 which serves clondalkin will be running from Grange castle to clongriffin dart station via the city center so you could switch between the D3 and O where the south circular road meets the D corridor

Thrashssacre

Stephen15 wrote: »

The scaremongering is alive have they even read the proposals?

http://wicklownews.net/2018/07/worry-and-outrage-over-ntas-plans-for-the-bray-145-bus-route/

No suprise the author doesn't even understand how the proposed system works.

TheChrisD

Qrt wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but how much would increased permeability in these areas help? I recall reading a Fingal CC report on it and Summerfield rings a bell.

Pedestrian accessibility between Summerfield Rise and the roundabout leading into Westend and the centre is desperately needed. Heck, I can still think back to walking from Roselawn up to the centre with my friends and hopping that wall seventeen years ago because it was the quickest way there.

AlanG wrote: »

Bringing so many routes into the Blanc Center seems to be a recipe for disaster given that for most of November and December it it already at a standstill and will add 20-30 mins to any journey.

Is it really that bad for buses though given there's practically a bus lane for the entire length of any approach road?

AlanG wrote: »

Also expecting people form the Clonsilla road, blanch village and waterville to travel back out to the center through the associated traffic before going into town seems like a massive addition to any journey. An interchange at the hospital flyover near the M50 would make a lot more sense.

Blanch village will still have a direct town link with the 35, which could also possibly be routed round the back of the centre and along the Clonsilla Road to keep a direct link there too.

Ultimately though, there will need to be one or two major B-spine stops along the N3 for access and interchanges. Ideally a stop built at the bridges over the Mill Road with pedestrian access built, and a proper interchange around Total Fitness - although who knows if the latter would even be considered as it might require the B-spine to turn off the N3 inbound and take the rather slumbering way across the M50 roundabout.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

The scaremongering is alive have they even read the proposals?

http://wicklownews.net/2018/07/worry-and-outrage-over-ntas-plans-for-the-bray-145-bus-route/

https://twitter.com/JOConnorTweets/status/1014142103511883777

Clearly he hasn't

bk

This seems to be a confusion that has come up multiple times.

There will be no just A, B, C, D buses. You don't get a D bus out of town and then change onto a D1 bus!

The D "corridor" will be made up by "routes" D1, D2, D3, etc. all of which will go direct from town, all leaving from the same bus stops. No interchange needed.

Let me give you a worked example based on the A route. Lets say I'm in town and I want to go to Drumcondra. I stand at an A bus stop and I can take any bus marked A1, A2, A3, A4. They will all stop in Drumcondra.

Now lets say I'm at the same bus stop and I want to go to the Airport. I have to wait until an A2 turns up at that stop in town as it is the only bus going to the Airport. Or if I want to go to Swords, then I wait for the A4 which will be the bus heading to Swords.

This really isn't that different to what currently happens. At the moment, if going to Drumcondra I can take the 11, 13, 16, 41, etc. But if I want to go to the Airport you take the 16, Swords the 41 (yeah I know, lets keep it simple), etc.

The letters will just give people a sense of which "corridor" the bus operates on, you still have individual routes that go directly to a particular place.

CircleofLife

Thrashssacre wrote: »

The D is just a corridor where all D suffix busses will run (D1, D2, D3 and D4) giving a 5 minuite or less wait time to anyone traveling within the corridor at the end of the corridor the routes then separate towards there final destination giving a 10-15 minuite frequency then the D3 which serves clondalkin will be running from Grange castle to clongriffin dart station via the city center so you could switch between the D3 and O where the south circular road meets the D corridor

Ah, that makes a bit more sense. I read through the report and all and didn't quite absorb that information. The D line looks like it runs to Kevin St, so that is not too bad of a walk.

There will also be the bonus of being able to visit family in Crumlin easier I suppose.

I do know quite a few people who will be disadvantaged by though. I can see elderly and disabled people struggling with it, especially if there are not seats provided at the connection stops, which, although they talk about improvements to stops, I cannot see mentioned. I will say that even though I'm still a bit stressed and confused by it, it's a good idea in theory. It is definitely a good idea to link up the suburbs more. The O route is a really good idea.

kerplun k

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That’s where the whole improved frequency kicks in, you go to your normal stop, which has the same or increased frequency, you reach the outer ring, get off, and choose which destination you want to go, and because you have a direct corridor, your never waiting more than 3 minutes for the transfer and you get their super-fast with zero congestion.

People can't seem to get over the idea of transferring, but if frequency is as good as they say it will, and if the corridors are in place, I see no reason why it wouldn’t, then not only will you have increased frequency, but also much faster traveling times.

If you've ever been to Paris, London, etc, and travelled around the city via Metro, you'll know that transferring from one line to another to get from point A to point B, is not that big a deal as long as the frequency is good.

kerplun k

magicbastarder wrote: »

they've confirmed that taxis will be allowed in them though.

IMO, That’s a mistake.
I’m okay with normal bus lanes, but the corridors should be permitted for buses only.
In order for this to work at maximum efficiency, the bus service which carries many passengers must be prioritised, at least for the first couple of years anyway.

LeinsterDub

CircleofLife wrote: »

I do know quite a few people who will be disadvantaged by though. I can see elderly and disabled people struggling with it, especially if there are not seats provided at the connection stops, which, although they talk about improvements to stops, I cannot see mentioned.

I love the crocodile tears in all these sorts of discussions . Won't someone please think of the children, elderly, disabled (delete as appropriate). From people who don't think of the children, elderly, disabled from one end of the year to the next.

I'm going to be frank the bus network needs to be built to get the maximum amount of people to their destination in the minimum amount of time.

If we want to have a serious discussion about the children, elderly, disabled then lets do it in an other thread.

But before you create your thread consider think how much of an increase at the fare box you're willing to pay and what kind of service you would like for example I would love to see some "City Imps" and a halo type for the elderly or disabled which would get then to their bus stops.

Peregrine

kerplun k wrote: »

magicbastarder wrote: »

they've confirmed that taxis will be allowed in them though.

IMO, That’s a mistake.
I’m okay with normal bus lanes, but the corridors should be permitted for buses only.
In order for this to work at maximum efficiency, the bus service which carries many passengers must be prioritised, at least for the first couple of years anyway.

So that's what your public consultation submission should include. I will certainly be asking that taxis be removed from these vital core bus corridors.

n!ghtmancometh

Getting rid of the morning and evening 69x and 51D departures (both excellent, busy routes) a total of 6 journeys, in favour of one morning only departure of proposed route 355 is lunacy and wrong, I didn't care what PR spiel is put on it as an improvement.

loyatemu

Peregrine wrote: »

So that's what your public consultation submission should include. I will certainly be asking that taxis be removed from these vital core bus corridors.

classing taxis as public transport is ludicrous - a large number of the taxis driving around town have no passengers in them, so the number of people they are transporting is effectively zero. The majority of the rest are carrying 1 passenger with a small number carrying multiple passengers. I suspect the number of people transported averages at around 1 per taxi so no better than private cars.

loyatemu

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JOConnorTweets/status/1014142103511883777

Clearly he hasn't

what a muppet - there does seem to some confusion about the "trunk route" concept, but he's Labour's candidate for Wicklow basically saying he can't read and understand a consultation document.