BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

LionelNashe

gmisk wrote: »

From looking at this proposal it looks like a disaster from where I am based.
I can now get the 79 79a and fly into town in 15 minutes. It now looks like I would have to change bus and it would wind through Inchicore, killmainham, and Thomas Street which is always jammed... So will take an absolute age to get to city centre! Where is the logic in that?

Where do you think you will need to transfer? The G1 and G2 run all the way into town; you don't have to change, for example, from a G1 to a G, or a G2 to a G.

Zebra3

murphaph wrote: »

Honestly if this is implemented they need to really make bringing a car inside the canal rings very awkward. There's only so much you can achieve in the city centre with bus lanes.

And let the Oireachtas lead the way by removing their car parking.

Victor

Qrt wrote: »

I don't seem to see an S1? I find that a bit odd.

The number sequence has been given growing space.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

The orbital routes highlighted. Doesn't include Swords-Malahide, Maynooth-Leixlip-Celbridge-Newcastle, some local routes and some peak-only routes that skim the city centre.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=455092&stc=1&d=1530865470

I've expanded this map and made some colour changes to routes I had already mapped. Note Blessington and Balbriggan are off-map.

Apologies for the size.

bk

dashcamdanny wrote: »

The major fuel costs are pulling away from stops, I was told they can use as much as half a litre on a hill from one stop. So picking up frequent short hop fare evaders actually cost a fortune. What im saying is that the same route can vary greatly of fuel cost depending on how they are driven and how many time the bus has to stop.

This is why Hybrid buses work so well, charge the battery while breaking to a stop, release the energy when accelerating off the stop. Prefect. It allows the Diesel engine to run in it's sweet spot and not have to constantly rev up and down, which is very inefficient for Diesel engines.

Of course hybrid buses are move expensive then Diesel then that.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Irrespective of the Big-Ticket Busconnects plans,ensuring that the TGX defaults to Card would bring IMMEDIATE and noticeable improvements for Customers (and Drivers).

Yes, I agree completely, it is totally mad. I can only assume there is some technical reason why it can't default to Secure mode. Or perhaps some idiotic contract reason.

Otherwise it is just shocking ineptitude.

howiya wrote: »

Who pays for the shortfall in revenue if we discourage this type of usage?

Why would there be. The problem is usually that people going short journeys take up the space of people who want to go long journeys and they get left behind.

Public transport systems all over Europe tend to discourage short journey PT use, encouraging people to walk or cycle instead (e.g. Amsterdam).

You can see they do the same with Luas, that has relatively high fares for even short journeys.

Does Luas have a shortfall in revenue? Because last time I checked, it was the most consistently profitable form of public transport in Ireland despite discouraging short trips.

Of course we aren't talking about elderly or disabled here who are covered by free travel pass.

Lets be honest, there won't be any shortfall, the current problem that is being had is that passenger numbers across PT has jumped massively over the last 2 years and is expected to continue. They are struggling to keep up with the demand. Some people walking/cycling would actually help take some pressure off.

Interestingly Amsterdam decided to invest in cycling infrastructure, so that they wouldn't need to spend so much on public transport, it was a lot cheaper.

It isn't like DB isn't already heavily subsidised and it isn't like we aren't going to throw another 2 billion at buses, ontop of 3 billion on Metrolink and 2 billion on DART expansion.

Perhaps encouraging at least some people to walk/cycle instead of PT would actually be more cost effective for us.

murphaph wrote: »

And short journies (or more precisely legs thereof) will be much more commonplace if BusConnects is implemented as outlined.

Yes, though that is slightly different, those would be covered under the 90min ticket.

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

Perhaps encouraging at least some people to walk/cycle instead of PT would actually be more cost effective for us.

To a degree you can call Bus connects a major cycling project too.

AndrewJRenko

Zebra3 wrote: »

And let the Oireachtas lead the way by removing their car parking.

Nah, they're too busy removing bike parking instead.

https://twitter.com/kenfoxe/status/1014843886626369537

thomasj

It's becoming a common thing now that at this time on a Sunday evening , you are unable to board a 39 or 39a outbound after blanchardstown centre.

This is because there's no room down to long gaps between buses and the shopping centre clearing with customers and employees.

Hopefully bus connects will help resolve this.

Dyr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Nah, they're too busy removing bike parking instead.

https://twitter.com/kenfoxe/status/1014843886626369537

Hopefully they'll remove their bike stations from the entrances to pedestrian bridges while they're at it.

AlekSmart

thomasj wrote: »

It's becoming a common thing now that at this time on a Sunday evening , you are unable to board a 39 or 39a outbound after blanchardstown centre.

This is because there's no room down to long gaps between buses and the shopping centre clearing with customers and employees.

Hopefully bus connects will help resolve this.

This aspect will largely be addressed by the imminent introduction of Monday-Saturday schedules on several major routes,which reflects a reality which has existed for several years now.

The additional services on Saturday & Sunday is not directly connected with busconnects,but is an integral part of the NTA/BAC agreement on the BMO introduction.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

I was in town today on the 70. 43 minutes from Dunboyne to the City centre.

Not a hope in hell two buses dragging me all around Blanchardstown with a changeover at the shopping centre will be quicker. No chance in hell, they'd want to be sending a taxi to make it quicker.

You wait 2 hours for your direct bus in the meantime I'll take the frequent bus that takes 10 minutes longer. I'll be in town having a nice pint while you're standing in the sun wishing for a glass of water

OldMrBrennan83

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AndrewJRenko

Bambi wrote: »

Hopefully they'll remove their bike stations from the entrances to pedestrian bridges while they're at it.

What bridges are these?

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

You think more frequent buses out here are any more than lip service?

Yes, that's the entire point of this process.

Patww79 wrote: »

It's very easy working around departure times anyway.

A 2 hour frequency is basically useless. Easy maybe. Useful? Convenient? Nope to put this in context the there are 4 buses from the Airport to Wexford for every 70 that runs.


What push and crush?

MJohnston

Jarrett Walker, the guy behind the BusConnects plan, 100% understands the concept of induced demand and how vital frequency is in bus networks for that. A good blog post by him:

http://humantransit.org/2015/07/mega-explainer-the-ridership-recipe.html?utm_source=smartertransport.uk&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Smarter%20Cambridge%20Transport%201%20March%202018

Some choice quotes:

People who are used to getting around by a private vehicle (car or bike) often underestimate the importance of frequency, because there isn’t an equivalent to it in their experience. High frequency means transit is coming soon, which means that it approximates the feeling of liberty you have with your private vehicle – that you can go anytime. Frequency is freedom!

if you live in a single family house with a driveway and usually get around by car, imagine that there were an automated gate at the end of your driveway that only opened once an hour, on the hour. When it’s closed, you can’t get your car in or out. If that were your situation, your biggest transportation problem would not be traffic congestion, or how fast you can go on the freeway; it would be how to get this frigging gate to open more often. That’s how low frequency feels to a potential transit customer, and why frequency often swamps other factors, like speed, in determining whether transit is actually useful.

Frequency has three independent benefits for the customer, which helps to explain why high frequency is so critical to sustained high ridership:

It reduces waiting, which is everyone’s least favorite part of a trip. (No, a smartphone that tells you when the bus comes doesn’t solve the problem of waiting; we are still talking about time when you’re not where you want to be.) The basic sensation of being able to go when you want to go is the essence of frequency.
It makes connections easy, which makes it possible for a pile of transit lines to become a network. In transit, this is huge. A transit line without good connections is useful for travelling in one dimension, along that line. A network of frequent lines makes it easy to travel in two dimensions – all over the city, or at least all over the part of it that supports frequent service. This network effect massively expands the usefulness of every line in the network, thus increasing each line’s ridership potential.
Finally, frequency is a backstop for problems of reliability. If a vehicle breaks down or is late, frequency means another will be along soon.

Finally, the duration of service matters, and it works much the way frequency does. Service later into the evening, or on weekends, initially appears to be a bad investment, because we’re adding lots of service when there aren’t as many riders. But in the long run, its availability tends to correlate with high ridership. That’s because riders won’t use the service in one direction unless they can get back, so evening service, even if the buses aren’t full, is a key part of how we build high ridership all day. The same is true of weekends. If you commute five days a week including some weekend days – like many people in the retail, entertainment, or service sectors – you are unlikely to rely on transit unless it works for you on all of those days.

This whole blog post is brilliant, in fact. I particularly like where he maps out how higher frequency actually has a better cost benefit to the operator than reduced frequency!

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

Not a hope in hell two buses dragging me all around Blanchardstown with a changeover at the shopping centre will be quicker.

Also I've just checked the map and it seems fairly direct from Dunboyne to Blanchardstown

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

But the 70 doesn't go to the Center at all, and it especially doesn't put you out there.

I'm aware of that. Is there anything else you want to add to it?

You're happy with a bus every hour weekday off peak while BC will deliver a bus every 20-25 minutes meeting with a bus with better than 5 minute frequency.

Also this opens up the rail link to Dunboyne.

murphaph

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm aware of that. Is there anything else you want to add to it?

You're happy with a bus every hour weekday off peak while BC will deliver a bus every 20-25 minutes meeting with a bus with better than 5 minute frequency.

Also this opens up the rail link to Dunboyne.

And easy access to the Blanchardstown Centre itself (which would be a major trip generator in its own right) with easy onward connection not just to the city centre but now also to destinations served by the orbital routes that will serve the centre.

howiya

bk wrote: »

Why would there be. The problem is usually that people going short journeys take up the space of people who want to go long journeys and they get left behind.

Public transport systems all over Europe tend to discourage short journey PT use, encouraging people to walk or cycle instead (e.g. Amsterdam).

You can see they do the same with Luas, that has relatively high fares for even short journeys.

Does Luas have a shortfall in revenue? Because last time I checked, it was the most consistently profitable form of public transport in Ireland despite discouraging short trips.

Of course we aren't talking about elderly or disabled here who are covered by free travel pass.

Lets be honest, there won't be any shortfall, the current problem that is being had is that passenger numbers across PT has jumped massively over the last 2 years and is expected to continue. They are struggling to keep up with the demand. Some people walking/cycling would actually help take some pressure off.

Interestingly Amsterdam decided to invest in cycling infrastructure, so that they wouldn't need to spend so much on public transport, it was a lot cheaper.

It isn't like DB isn't already heavily subsidised and it isn't like we aren't going to throw another 2 billion at buses, ontop of 3 billion on Metrolink and 2 billion on DART expansion.

Perhaps encouraging at least some people to walk/cycle instead of PT would actually be more cost effective for us.



Yes, though that is slightly different, those would be covered under the 90min ticket.

The post I replied to mentioned York Road to Dun Laoghaire. These short journeys aren't taking the place of anyone wanting to travel further. Its money for jam for the operator.

Not every journey that Stephen15 wants to discourage will be replaced by another passenger making a longer journey.

Spanish Eyes

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Is the train no good for you at all? At least you have a choice, many commuters do not have any, it's DB or nothing.

That is why I fully support the project. It will be a pain for some, but they may have choices (some areas have bus, train and Luas), but others are stuck with just the bus.

dazberry

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That is why I fully support the project. It will be a pain for some, but they may have choices (some areas have bus, train and Luas), but others are stuck with just the bus.

It would appear that the project is moving resources away from areas with Luas/Dart to concentrate them in areas that don't. For instance 6/7 buses per hour down the Naas Rd, Bluebell and Inchicore (Southwest end) will become 1 per hour, so actively forcing people onto the Luas.

cgcsb

I've heard down the grapevine that Tallaght, Liffey Valley, Broombridge and Blanch will have new mini bus stations with dedicated approach roads for buses only. This will make the transferring much more reliable than having to walk around to different bus stops.

murphaph

cgcsb wrote: »

I've heard down the grapevine that Tallaght, Liffey Valley, Broombridge and Blanch will have new mini bus stations with dedicated approach roads for buses only. This will make the transferring much more reliable than having to walk around to different bus stops.

To be honest I assumed from the start that this would be the case. They have earmarked a lot of money for this project so the funding should be there. It won't work unless these hubs are well laid out, including access roads.

CatInABox

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest I assumed from the start that this would be the case. They have earmarked a lot of money for this project so the funding should be there. It won't work unless these hubs are well laid out, including access roads.

Yeah, I can see a car park or two getting decimated out in blanch. Seems like they're really using this as a means to push people to public transport if at all possible.

bk

thomasj wrote: »

It's becoming a common thing now that at this time on a Sunday evening , you are unable to board a 39 or 39a outbound after blanchardstown centre.

This is because there's no room down to long gaps between buses and the shopping centre clearing with customers and employees.

Hopefully bus connects will help resolve this.

Yes, the buses from Portmarnock once an evening were simply insane! :eek:

BTW Is there no plan or system at all to lay on extra buses on routes like these during good weather? Lots of poor people were being left behind on routes with only 1 hour frequency, poor people, mad stuff.

BusConnects will definitely give lots of more buses and frequncy off peak weekdays and Saturdays. Sundays there appears to be some what more frequency, but not to the same extent.

The issue seems to be the extra Sunday pay rates that drivers earn those days, it makes it uneconomic.

AlekSmart wrote: »

This aspect will largely be addressed by the imminent introduction of Monday-Saturday schedules on several major routes,which reflects a reality which has existed for several years now.

The additional services on Saturday & Sunday is not directly connected with busconnects,but is an integral part of the NTA/BAC agreement on the BMO introduction.

I'm sure they were already working towards this anyway. However Walker if you read his blog is obviously a big fan of all day, including off peak and weekend high frequency services, it is a major part of all his designs.

The first report Walker did last year seemed to study this in particular and look at the cost of off peak services and came out very much in favour of it. So that likely feedback into NTA/BAC agreements and then into the BusConnects network redesign.

cgcsb wrote: »

I've heard down the grapevine that Tallaght, Liffey Valley, Broombridge and Blanch will have new mini bus stations with dedicated approach roads for buses only. This will make the transferring much more reliable than having to walk around to different bus stops.

They did this on a small scale in Cork with the 202 at Mahon Shopping Center. They built a dedicated bus only * entrance road into the shopping center so that they could avoid the normal traffic. It has been a great success.

Now obviously Blanc, Liffey Valley, etc. will be a much bigger scale, but I suspect the concept is relatively similar.

* The bus only route is controlled by a barrier that is opened by the bus driver somehow, so literally a bus gate. No cars or taxis can use it.

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

MJohnston wrote: »

This whole blog post is brilliant, in fact. I particularly like where he maps out how higher frequency actually has a better cost benefit to the operator than reduced frequency!

Walker is 100% correct about this. Frequency is absolutely what makes public transport work. Just turn up and go when you want, no "planning".

I've been thinking a lot about this both in terms of stops near your house, versus far away and frequency.

I've experienced both. I grew up in Cork, where there was a bus stop 5 meters from my parents house. Great, except at best it was scheduled every 30 minutes and realistically you could wait an hour and a half before one would turn up.

Needless to say, we usually didn't bother waiting. It was just a 30 minute walk into town anyway and much faster by car. This is why bus use in Cork is so poor.

When I moved to Dublin it was a bit of a revelation how good buses could be, at least compared to Cork.

I'm a 10 minute walk from my nearest bus stop, which is a little long and tiring, but I'd never complain, because when I get there, it is one of those core lettered routes and other then a Sunday, I've never had to wait more then 5 minutes for a bus to come along.

It truly is freeing. I never think about bus schedules like I use to Cork anymore, I simply head out and go whenever I want, no planning needed, it is fantastic.

I'd happily walk for 10 minutes and wait 5 minutes, then walk 5 meters and have to sit around for 30+ minutes anytime.

Also it helps hide any unreliability issues with buses. Bus breaks down, driver out sick, not a bother, there will be another bus along in 2 minutes. In Cork if the above happened and it did VERY frequently then you will be sitting there for another 30 minutes at least! Mad stuff.

BTW buses in Cork are starting to improve a lot, with some routes going to a high 10 minute frequency. Guess what, massively successful, those routes are seeing big increases in passenger numbers, so much so that they have had to replace single deckers with double deckers to keep up with the demand!

Frequency works. It is the most important aspect of public transport.

TheChrisD

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

43 minutes, but being shoehorned into one of the seven/eight departures of the day once every two hours, with no departure from Dunboyne until 10am -v- let's assume 51 minutes, but having the flexibility of leaving every half an hour from 8am.

I think I know what the choice for most people that aren't you (aka me) would be.

OldMrBrennan83

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TheChrisD

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You keep saying that like Blanch is going to be the death of you or something.

There are bus lanes or specific bus paths in all directions towards and mostly from the centre, not to mention that with the funding for the project they could also do a massive revamp of the current interchange layout and approach roads into something that could be even quicker for bus services.

Plus it's not like the Centre is all that way away from the N3 anyway. Two minutes to exit the N3 and drive to the interchange, 5-10 minutes (depending on day) to change to a B bus, then another 1 minute to get back onto the N3 via the on-ramp. Wow, such a travesty!

You should probably also think about those who are actually trying to get to the Centre too, now they have an even more regular service at the same time. Great for workers to whom the current Dunboyne departure times are fúcking useless for getting in to start work at the top of the hour.