BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

I'd take 90 minutes if I didn't have to use a bus station at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre to do it.

How dare I take away my direct route to the city? Because it’s really infrequent and inefficient, and we can get you there sooner another way. If we give you more frequent service to a nearby hub, we can connect you to much faster service to the city, so in the end, counting waiting time, you get there sooner. We can also connect you to countless places you can’t get to now at all.

I think he's taking too you.
http://humantransit.org/2018/07/dublin-a-new-bus-network-for-a-more-liberated-city.html

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

bk

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, connections are pretty much fundamental to any high quality public transport system.

No one in London thinks twice about changing London Underground lines or changing from London Underground to London bus to complete their journey.

L1011

The people of Dunboyne have no issues with connecting for trains, all day long - transferring to Pearse services when the Docklands direct is on or using the shuttle otherwise. Why are we to believe they can't do it in lieu of one or the worst served bus routes on the entire network?

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

I have zero interest in other passengers.

We've a name for that sort of service. We call it a taxi

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Peregrine

Patww79 wrote: »

I'm giving my point of view on how I feel about it, and I don't like how it works for me. I have zero interest in other passengers.

I know I can't change this new big plan but from my own point of view I don't have to like the shambles. Connections are always a step backwards in any transport.

I know people in Dunboyne who think this would be much better than the bus service they have now.

Connections are a step backward in transport in your opinion. In reality, it has been shown to be vital in designing an efficient transport network. All of modern practice disagrees with your opinion which is based on zero research. So I'm going to go ahead and say your opinion is just wrong. You're entitled to hold a wrong opinion but hopefully sense will prevail.

mille100piedi

is there any reason why there is no public transport in the Phoneix Park?

Also Broombridge is one way bridge how is the 36 Bus suppose to travel in both direction over the bridge?

Peregrine

mille100piedi wrote: »

Also Broombridge is one way bridge how is the 36 Bus suppose to travel in both direction over the bridge?

Probably going to turn the access roads either side into one lane each way and put traffic lights either side of the bridge. Hopefully bus only with three bus routes going over it each way.

StreetLight

mille100piedi wrote: »

is there any reason why there is no public transport in the Phoneix Park?

The Office of Public Works won't allow it. They put the kybosh on the proposed 90Z route last year, which was supposed to run from the Zoo along the Quays to Tara Street station.

Yer Da sells Avon

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And they have zero interest in you either, but that's the thing about public transport: it has always been - and always will be - necessary to sacrifice the desires and whims of the individual in favour of the greater good. If individual 'concerns' are ignored (which will be difficult with local elections coming up next year, and candidates, many of whom won't bother reading the BusConnects proposals in full, all competing for airtime), then BusConnects is far more likely to be a success. Any attempt to pander to the whims of those with the loudest voices will result in a crap compromise that helps nobody.

Dyr

Peregrine wrote: »

I know people in Dunboyne who think this would be much better than the bus service they have now.

Connections are a step backward in transport in your opinion. In reality, it has been shown to be vital in designing an efficient transport network. All of modern practice disagrees with your opinion which is based on zero research. So I'm going to go ahead and say your opinion is just wrong. You're entitled to hold a wrong opinion but hopefully sense will prevail.

Neatly ignoring the fact that the irish experience of connecting services has been horrendous.

Stephen15

Bambi wrote: »

Neatly ignoring the fact that the irish experience of connecting services has been horrendous.

The Irish experience of public transport has been generally horrendous also. Bus Connects aims to change that.

Peregrine

Bambi wrote: »

Neatly ignoring the fact that the irish experience of connecting services has been horrendous.

Neatly ignoring that one of the main aims of the project is to fix that. I'm still not convinced that you've even read the proposal.

"We shouldn't fix it because we were bad at it in the past!"

Good grief.

dublinman1990

A DCU professor wants to have bendy buses put back in Dublin.

But this time he wants to have them back for mainstream use for BusConnects as being used in the entire Dublin Bus fleet. Is he for real?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/call-for-use-of-bendy-buses-in-dublin-853915.html

A social scientist wants transport bosses to bring 'bendy buses' to Dublin.

Public consultation on a massive redesign of the capital's bus network is currently underway.

Fares would be simplified and the numbering of routes would be scrapped in favour of a letter-based system.

But Associate Professor at DCU, Eoin O' Malley, believes a new fleet is needed to make services efficient.

"I'd be inclined to get away from double-decker buses, which are kind of jerky and uncomfortable," he said.

"They're bad for people with disabilities, you can't get two or three people with small children with buggies onto a bus.

"I would move to bendy buses, or articulated buses. You get far more people on it, they're much smoother, they're much more comfortable."

Peregrine

I don't really understand why the media keeps publishing these people's opinions. It's looking more and more like academics call up media outlets and say "Hello, I'm a professor and I have an opinion" and it gets published. Let's not forget the McCarthy and Morgenroth debacles.

Professor of what, like?

Eoin O'Malley is an Associate Professor (senior lecturer in old money) in political science at the School of Law and Government, Dublin City University. There he teaches politics and public policy and is the Director of the MSc. in Public Policy. He has authored over forty articles in peer-review journals. His research is mainly on Irish politics and particularly on the position of the Taoiseach and cabinet government in Ireland, though he also does work on the Irish party system, media coverage of Irish elections and public policy. He recently conducted research which included experiments on the impact of information on opinion change. His latest work is on policy success and policy failure in Ireland.

Political science. Get outta here, Eoin!

bk

Well I would be supportive of the original Swiftway BRT plan.

Though of course not for the whole fleet, just for those planned routes with the high quality infrastructure needed to make it work and not because double deckers are "kind of jerky".

But he does have a point on single deckers being more accessible for elderly, disabled and buggy users. But they need to be supported by multiple doors and off bus ticketing.

Stephen15

dublinman1990 wrote: »

A DCU professor wants to have bendy buses put back in Dublin.

But this time he wants to have them back for mainstream use for BusConnects as being used in the entire Dublin Bus fleet. Is he for real?

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/call-for-use-of-bendy-buses-in-dublin-853915.html

I would actually agree with him. On straight routes such as the new proposed corridors bendy buses would be favourable. Obviously the needed infrastructure for them would have to be there such as longer stops and provision to use all four or five doors on them.

I wouldn't be going for the likes of the buses in the Swiftway or the Belfast Glider plans but rather regular bendy buses such as Mercedes Citaros or other European bus manufacturers such as MAN, Iveco, Scania or Solaris. Bendy buses can carry up to 200 people whereas double deckers can only carry about 90 people even the the TRI axle VTs can only carry 125 people.

Double deckers are actually quite inefficient as they use more fuel, are heavier and don't carry near as much passengers for their size to justify.

On the continent bus operators utilise bendy buses in a similar way that DB would utilise VTs on high capacity routes and their regular single deckers can carry as many people as a DB double decker due to having far more standing room than a double decker. These buses also generally have 3 doors rather than 1 or 2.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldn't be going for the likes of the buses in the Swiftway or the Belfast Glider plans but rather regular bendy buses such as Mercedes Citaros or other European bus manufacturers such as MAN, Iveco, Scania or Solaris.

Just FYI The Belfast Glider is made by the Belgian company Vanhool. One of the highest quality bus and coach manufacturers in Europe. Certainly a higher quality then some of the above brands. You mightn't like the Luas-esq look, but it is fundamentally different then any other bendy bus.

Peregrine

I think BRT has its place in Dublin but he comes across as someone who doesn't quite understand what he's even proposing. I'm more concerned as to see why a political scientist's opinion on buses is published by a news outlet.

john boye

Artics could possibly work on some of the orbital routes if the demand is there for them and the right infrastructure is put in place. For the love of God keep them away from town though!

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Just FYI The Belfast Glider is made by the Belgian company Vanhool. One of the highest quality bus and coach manufacturers in Europe. Certainly a higher quality then some of the above brands. You mightn't like the Luas-esq look, but it is fundamentally different then any other bendy bus.

The buses still only have 3 doors compared to 4 or 5 on most continental bendy buses and look considerably shorter and narrower. I'm not mad on having buses which are branded differently to regular buses would prefer if all had the same branding, livery and fare structure.

Also VanHool make regular bendy buses also aswell as BRT buses.

https://www.vanhool.be/en/public-transport/agamma/diesel

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

The buses still only have 3 doors compared to 4 or 5 on most continental bendy buses and look considerably shorter and narrower. I'm not mad on having buses which are branded differently to regular buses would prefer if all had the same branding, livery and fare structure.

That is because they choose the shortest length available. Longer versions are available from Vanhool in that range.

I could certainly see why you would want different branding and livery. A service like this should be much better then your typical Dublin Bus, you certainly wouldn't want to solely a new service like this with an existing brand.

Fare structure, should they should be the same, though different in operation. Off bus ticketing like Luas versus DB style driver interaction. And this is points to why you might want to brand it differently then a Dublin Bus.

Is a BRT/bendy bus with 4/5 doors, entry/exit through any door and off bus ticketing more like a Luas or more like a bus? It sounds a lot more like a Luas to me then it sounds like a bus. I know it obviously doesn't have tracks and overhead cables, but the operation feels more like what we are use to with Luas, so I can certainly see why it might not make sense to brand it like a DB.

MightyMunster

bk wrote: »

Well I would be supportive of the original Swiftway BRT plan.

Though of course not for the whole fleet, just for those planned routes with the high quality infrastructure needed to make it work and not because double deckers are "kind of jerky".

But he does have a point on single deckers being more accessible for elderly, disabled and buggy users. But they need to be supported by multiple doors and off bus ticketing.

His main point in his radio interview was that it takes too long to get people on/off a double decker bus with only 1 door and not enough buggy/wheelchair spaces.

Single ticket prices and being able to swipe your leap card after boarding would help.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

LeinsterDub

Patww79 wrote: »

That's the thing though. My bus now isn't horrendous. It works spot on.

Remind me on Sunday. I'll offer you a million euro if you get to town on the bus in the next 60 minutes.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Stephen15

Patww79 wrote: »

That's the thing though. My bus now isn't horrendous. It works spot on.

Works well for you. The public transport in my area generally works well also for me but I see the bigger picture and even though it may work well I can see room for improvement. While it may work ok for me it doesn't work well for others.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

That is because they choose the shortest length available. Longer versions are available from Vanhool in that range.

I could certainly see why you would want different branding and livery. A service like this should be much better then your typical Dublin Bus, you certainly wouldn't want to solely a new service like this with an existing brand.

Fare structure, should they should be the same, though different in operation. Off bus ticketing like Luas versus DB style driver interaction. And this is points to why you might want to brand it differently then a Dublin Bus.

Is a BRT/bendy bus with 4/5 doors, entry/exit through any door and off bus ticketing more like a Luas or more like a bus? It sounds a lot more like a Luas to me then it sounds like a bus. I know it obviously doesn't have tracks and overhead cables, but the operation feels more like what we are use to with Luas, so I can certainly see why it might not make sense to brand it like a DB.

I see your point but plenty of European cities operate bendy buses efficiently in the same livery and branding as regular buses and they operate just as efficiently as BRT. In fact many cities have buses, trams and metro in the same livery and branding Eg. Paris.

Realistically we should going for a network of integration which means buses, trains and trams in the same livery and branding like many other cities across Europe.

bk

MightyMunster wrote: »

His main point in his radio interview was that it takes too long to get people on/off a double decker bus with only 1 door and not enough buggy/wheelchair spaces.

Well he is perfectly correct about it taking too long to get people on/off single door or the practically single door double deckers. Boarding time and dwell time on Dublin Bus is atrocious, worst I've experienced in any European city. DB's operating model is not suitable for a busy city bus service.

He is also correct about insufficient buggy/wheelchair space. I'm very aware of this topic myself, given that I take my 2 year old on the bus all the time. It can be a real issue when multiple buggies want to get on. It has improved somewhat since they moved to two bays rather then one on the newer buses, but still not great. BE buses in Cork seem to have more room for multiple buggies.

Where possible we would take Luas/Dart, far more space for buggy, but obviously only serve limited areas. Trying to squeeze unto very busy buses is incredibly stressful.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I see your point but plenty of European cities operate bendy buses efficiently in the same livery and branding as regular buses and they operate just as efficiently as BRT. In fact many cities have buses, trams and metro in the same livery and branding Eg. Paris.

Realistically we should going for a network of integration which means buses, trains and trams in the same livery and branding like many other cities across Europe.

The thing is those cities also run the same multi-door, zero driver interaction model across their whole fleet of buses, including all their single deckers. So people are use to that model across all their buses and the bendy buses are simply extra long buses with no other difference.

That isn't the reality of the Dublin operating model. I really wish it was, but it isn't. So a different brand for an entirely different operating model makes sense to me, to stress to people that getting on a BRT will be very different then the typical DB experience. To help encourage them to use any door, not to approach the driver, etc.

I do agree with what you are saying about a consistent brand across services and yes that should be the long term goal, but I'd come at it from the opposite direction as you.

Rather then sully the new BRT buses with Dublin Buses poor brand and reputation, I'd use a new brand for the BRT's, show people how good buses can operate and get them excited by the new brand and then over a period of ten years, start introducing new buses to DB with similar features (e.g. three door, two stairs double deckers and three door single deckers, all doors passenger operated) and brand those buses with the same BRT brand.

Of course the most important part is the operating model. But psychology is important to. The goal is to attract people out of cars. No one is leaving their cars for just poor Dublin Bus buses. But new Luas-esq operated and branded buses just might help do the trick.