BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

L1011

CatInABox wrote: »

The BusConnects survey is up.

Have your say here:

https://www.research.net/r/BusConnects

This survey format is awful for people with large amounts of constructive comments and seems to be designed to allow whining about single routes - not a good idea.

They do ask what you've read before commenting, I do hope the people who clearly haven't read the report don't lie...

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Stephen15

Patww79 wrote: »

Would you not have access to the stats?

Why do you think s/he would?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

devnull

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It is not acceptable to speculate on the identity of posters or even hint at it.

Attack the post and not the poster.

- Moderator

Dyr

CatInABox wrote: »

I think you're reading way more into it than neccessary. Most likely, it's because it's more important to get across the point of the most frequent services than the less frequent. If you want though, I can ask Jarrett Walker on twitter, he seems to be quite responsive.

Funny I was told that when I pointed out the NTA never put the full report in a single file. That's when I'm not being told that I haven't read any of this report

Ask Jarret, but the reason is that it's cute hoorism on his part, which does not bode well

Like his catchy statement

Under the plan, the average* Dubliner can get to 20% more useful places** in 45 minutes.***

Which sounds great but has so many qualified terms in it you should read it as the 9 out of 10 cat prefer Wiskas advertising guff it is.


What should be selling this plan is X amount more buses, X amount of entirely new routes and average waiting times across the network reduced by X.


Let's have a look at some of Lyle Lanleys oh so slightly passive aggressive attempts to address criticism

How dare I take away my direct route to the city? Because it’s really infrequent and inefficient, and we can get you there sooner another way

Is it? Really? There's plenty of very frequent routes in dublin right now that are efficient from the passenger perspective so straight off he's bull****ting, as for the claim that he can get you there sooner (not faster cos Jarret is an equivocating mofo ) via an alternate route, big words but not backed up with anything. Why not put a route planner on the busconnects site so people can see how much more efficient this proposed network is in practical terms? That would really sell it.

I'm not even sure that the bould Jarret knows why Irish people hate transfer services. Maybe someone should put him wide on twitter


How can people change buses, or walk to a different stop in an intersection, when it’s windy and raining? His answer is basically that the bus stops will be nice and anyway you'll just get used to it. Yeah, we get used to a lot of things but that's not a selling point for blowing all our tax euros. Frankly, based on the NTA attitude to bus stops and pedestrian space, the proposed bus shelter promise won't survive first contact with reality anyway

How will this affect older people and people with disabilities? There is an unavoidable tension between senior and disabled needs – which are much more inconvenienced by interchange and thats about it, mention of undefined measures to lessen the blow

So GFY gramps as far as Jarret is concerned

Tbh the more I see of this the more I go from thinking it's a generally good plan wrapped in some NTA horse manure to thinking it's an outright monorail. Still lot of money to be made off it. all that road widening and such.

ThunbergsAreGo

So under the new plan I cannot get from DCU to Swords in 45 minutes and can just about get to the airport?

That can't be right at all!

Interesting that 18 months were spent analysing data etc and no actual focus groups or taking to people who use buses

L1011

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And you'd be phenomenally wrong.

blah

naughtb4 wrote: »

So under the new plan I cannot get from DCU to Swords in 45 minutes and can just about get to the airport?

That can't be right at all!

Interesting that 18 months were spent analysing data etc and no actual focus groups or taking to people who use buses

I'm also finding that confusing. The isochrone suggests that it currently isn't possible to get to from DCU to Swords in 45 minutes (or else it would show up red, as lost access). Google maps is telling me I can make that trip in 30-40 minutes at 10pm on a Thursday.

Can anyone make sense of it?

Edit - I took this question to the consultants

L1011

The isochrones include walking time to stops and appear to assume that everyone walks at the speed of a 90 year old on a zimmer...

MJohnston

blah wrote: »

I'm also finding that confusing. The isochrone suggests that it currently isn't possible to get to from DCU to Swords in 45 minutes (or else it would show up red, as lost access). Google maps is telling me I can make that trip in 30-40 minutes at 10pm on a Thursday.

Can anyone make sense of it?

Edit - I took this question to the consultants

It says right on the diagrams that they're representing the journey time on a weekday at midday. That is more like 40-55 minutes on Google Maps.

blah

MJohnston wrote: »

It says right on the diagrams that they're representing the journey time on a weekday at midday. That is more like 40-55 minutes on Google Maps.

I'm assuming that with lower frequency of buses at night it should take longer than at midday...

L1011

blah wrote: »

I'm assuming that with lower frequency of buses at night it should take longer than at midday...

When looking for a time, Google assumes you are at the stop when the bus/tram/train is there, usually. Do a destination on a phone and it calculates the time to the stop and the wait. Two different sets of figures for slightly different questions.

MJohnston

blah wrote: »

I'm assuming that with lower frequency of buses at night it should take longer than at midday...

I would imagine that they're not trying to incorporate "waiting time" into these isochrones - Google Maps doesn't. For example if I look at DCU to Swords for right now (10:28pm as I'm typing), it shows me the 41 at 10:43pm, arriving in Swords at 11:21pm. That's a 53 minute "journey", but Google Maps displays it as 38 minutes.

blah

I see, but it does seem like they are erring on the side of overestimating the time a bit. But consistently.

MJohnston

blah wrote: »

I see, but it does seem like they are erring on the side of overestimating the time a bit. But consistently.

It might be what L1011 mentions with them exaggerating walking time, but as you say, it seems to affect both the red shaded areas and blue areas equally.

LionelNashe

blah wrote: »

I'm assuming that with lower frequency of buses at night it should take longer than at midday...

On Googlemaps you can also check for the journey time at specific times of day and days of week. I'm seeing 37 to 43 minutes for DCU to Swords at midday, not counting walking time to the stop and waiting time for the bus.

I think that the isochromes do count both; it's mentioned in the documentation that journey time includes waiting time(which is part of their rationale for increasing frequency), and you can tell from the circular shaded areas that are surrounding train stations, Luas stops and bus-stops that they are counting walking times at the end of the journey, so this would imply they are counting the walking time at the start as well.

Uriel.

I've also raised the swords issue in the consultation.
I've been saying it to Dublin bus and Swords express regularly that the time it takes to get out of Swords is absolutely ridiculous.

The isos are still showing a 30 minute time to the airport which is about what it can be at present.

Of course I've also raised with them the issue of reliability of service. Pretend frequency is grand but right now I have a folder of 9 feedback emails from the last 13 days of scheduled buses either not showing up or showing up over 10 minutes late.

dublinman1990

I submitted my survey about 25 minutes ago. For infrastructure; I had written things about the improving of infrastructure provision for the stretch of road for the S8 from Sandyford Business District to Benamore Road. I also talked about the stretch from Stradbrook Hill roundabout to near the burn night club at N11 Stillorgan. For the routes themselves like the 225, 227 & S8; I said that the proposed frequencies being given to them were very positive. I won't go into too much detail though as it was a really long submission being given to them. I will give more detail later if you ask me for it though.

ThunbergsAreGo

blah wrote: »

I'm also finding that confusing. The isochrone suggests that it currently isn't possible to get to from DCU to Swords in 45 minutes (or else it would show up red, as lost access). Google maps is telling me I can make that trip in 30-40 minutes at 10pm on a Thursday.

Can anyone make sense of it?

Edit - I took this question to the consultants

They also seem to indicate I cannot get from malahide to Dublin in 45 mins despite the existing 142 doing exactly this

It's very confusing.

Maybe the lack of an Express comparison is why they went with 12.00 (must read up on it).it seems very odd to have not included the work rush

markpb

naughtb4 wrote: »

Interesting that 18 months were spent analysing data etc and no actual focus groups or taking to people who use buses

The public are being consulted right now. What does it matter if they consult with the public before or after the first draft, input is being sought. Arguably, the input will be better now because there's something concrete to talk about instead of asking people for their opinions.

Anyway, Leap gives transport planners in Dublin a wealth of information about the trips people are making. I'm not involved in the process but I can only assume that DB and NTA shared an anonymised version of the data with JW. It was posted here last week that Leap makes up 80% of the trips on DB now and Dart and Luas would have similarly detailed data between Leap and ticket sales. Every trip, every connection is available to them already. This is phenomenally useful information.

dashcamdanny

In the history of public consultation in Ireland with regards infrastructure.

Has a draft plan ever been changed to accommodate the public's suggestions or are they just paying us lip service?

howiya

markpb wrote: »

The public are being consulted right now. What does it matter if they consult with the public before or after the first draft, input is being sought. Arguably, the input will be better now because there's something concrete to talk about instead of asking people for their opinions.

Anyway, Leap gives transport planners in Dublin a wealth of information about the trips people are making. I'm not involved in the process but I can only assume that DB and NTA shared an anonymised version of the data with JW. It was posted here last week that Leap makes up 80% of the trips on DB now and Dart and Luas would have similarly detailed data between Leap and ticket sales. Every trip, every connection is available to them already. This is phenomenally useful information.

Agree with most of that but imagine how more useful the Leap information would be if we had a tag-off situation for DB

loyatemu

markpb wrote: »

The public are being consulted right now. What does it matter if they consult with the public before or after the first draft, input is being sought. Arguably, the input will be better now because there's something concrete to talk about instead of asking people for their opinions.

Anyway, Leap gives transport planners in Dublin a wealth of information about the trips people are making. I'm not involved in the process but I can only assume that DB and NTA shared an anonymised version of the data with JW. It was posted here last week that Leap makes up 80% of the trips on DB now and Dart and Luas would have similarly detailed data between Leap and ticket sales. Every trip, every connection is available to them already. This is phenomenally useful information.

With no tag-off on DB, how useful is the info though?

L1011

dashcamdanny wrote: »

In the history of public consultation in Ireland with regards infrastructure.

Has a draft plan ever been changed to accommodate the public's suggestions or are they just paying us lip service?

Metrolink.

There are minor examples also but there hasn't been projects of this scale very often.

Stephen15

loyatemu wrote: »

With no tag-off on DB, how useful is the info though?

People tagging on using the drivers ticket machine would give stats as to how far people are travelling if they are going a short distance. Also people tagging on to a DB bus and then tagging on to the Luas, DART or another bus.

LionelNashe

https://twitter.com/BusConnects/status/1017751207132229632

markpb

dashcamdanny wrote: »

In the history of public consultation in Ireland with regards infrastructure. Has a draft plan ever been changed to accommodate the public's suggestions or are they just paying us lip service?

Metro North changed dramatically during public consultation. Network Direct also had considerable customer input.

loyatemu wrote: »

With no tag-off on DB, how useful is the info though?

If you get a bus from A to somewhere (unknown to DB) and later get the bus from B back to A, it's reasonable to assume that you got off the bus at B, especially if you do it regularly.

Qrt

L1011 wrote: »

The airlink routes are commercial and weren't in scope for this, no more than aircoach or airport hopper were

Airport Hopper's routes are NTA designated.

devnull

Qrt wrote: »

Airport Hopper's routes are NTA designated.

They're not Public Service Obligation routes, they are commercial routes the same way that the Aircoach and Dublin Bus Airlink routes are.