BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Qrt

devnull wrote: »

They're not Public Service Obligation routes, they are commercial routes the same way that the Aircoach and Dublin Bus Airlink routes are.

They're still NTA-designated. There's NTA notices to drivers when you get on the bus, incl. leap card instructions.

devnull

Qrt wrote: »

They're still NTA-designated. There's NTA notices to drivers when you get on the bus, incl. leap card instructions.

There's no such thing as an NTA designated route.

There are two types of route in Ireland in general
- Public Service Obligation
- Commercial Routes

Public Service obligation routes are routes which are provided by companies under contract to the NTA who pays such companies to run such routes and supplies them with buses and other items to do so. The NTA sets the fares for these routes, the timetable and the ticketing arrangements.

Commercial routes are free market routes which are entirely self funded, supply their own vehicles, fare structure and timetable within the licensing regulations that are on the NTA website. The NTA has no direct control over these services other than granting a license for them.

The NTA do issue some literature to commercial operators that they can choose or choose not to use. It's entirely their choice. The Leap Card is an NTA system so therefore operators accepting the Leap Card are mandated to use NTA supplied systems and equipment in order to process use of it.

Commercial routes are completely outside the scope of BusConnects.

Stephen15

I've only got around to looking at the full report now. I see on the existing network map it shows commercial DB routes 747 and 757 Airlink services these however do not appear on the proposed network map.

GM228

Qrt wrote: »

They're still NTA-designated.

The routes of commercial services are not "designated" by the NTA, rather they are bound by the conditions of the licence they are granted by the NTA.

When seeking a licence from the NTA the operator (not the NTA) propose their route, stops, service frequency etc and if accepted they become a condition of the licence.

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

Metro North changed dramatically during public consultation. Network Direct also had considerable customer input.

is didn't happen the same as changed drastically :pac::pac:

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

I've only got around to looking at the full report now. I see on the existing network map it shows commercial DB routes 747 and 757 Airlink services these however do not appear on the proposed network map.

Most likely an oversight considering they are outside the scope of the project.

jd

Another Public Rep misunderstands Bus Connects. Most of Swords ids probably leafleted with misinformation

https://twitter.com/humantransit/status/1018083183579918336

dashcamdanny

it looks like the 65 to Blessington is dew for the chop , I cant seem to find anything on the new proposed routes that accommodate it.

Stephen15

dashcamdanny wrote: »

it looks like the 65 to Blessington is dew for the chop , I cant seem to find anything on the new proposed routes that accommodate it.

Hourly route 254 from Tallaght to Blessington. Also peak time only route 344 from Tallaght to Ballyknockan. Don't know what's being proposed for Ballymore Eustace perhaps every second 254 might go there.

Green Party: Ossian Smyth

MJohnston wrote: »

I would imagine that they're not trying to incorporate "waiting time" into these isochrones - Google Maps doesn't. For example if I look at DCU to Swords for right now (10:28pm as I'm typing), it shows me the 41 at 10:43pm, arriving in Swords at 11:21pm. That's a 53 minute "journey", but Google Maps displays it said @as 38 minutes.

I asked Mr Walker this and he said trip times "include average waiting time, which is half of the scheduled time between buses"

https://twitter.com/humantransit/status/1014036608969035776

_Kaiser_

It sounds to me (and I admit that I haven't read much of this plan beyond what's being posted and debated here) that this whole thing is an overcomplicated mess that very few seem to fully understand (enthusiasts here don't really represent the masses) and that this is in turn being used to make it mean "whatever we want it to mean" in response to each specific question.

Unless the people behind this start getting their message out clearly and quickly, it'll all fall apart in the face of electioneering and misunderstandings.

LeinsterDub

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It sounds to me (and I admit that I haven't read much of this plan beyond what's being posted and debated here) that this whole thing is an overcomplicated mess that very few seem to fully understand (enthusiasts here don't really represent the masses) and that this is in turn being used to make it mean "whatever we want it to mean" in response to each specific question.

Unless the people behind this start getting their message out clearly and quickly, it'll all fall apart in the face of electioneering and misunderstandings.

It's unbelievably simple. What don't you understand?

Dyr

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It sounds to me (and I admit that I haven't read much of this plan beyond what's being posted and debated here) that this whole thing is an overcomplicated mess that very few seem to fully understand (enthusiasts here don't really represent the masses) and that this is in turn being used to make it mean "whatever we want it to mean" in response to each specific question.

Unless the people behind this start getting their message out clearly and quickly, it'll all fall apart in the face of electioneering and misunderstandings.

All they have to do is create a dummy route planner for the project so people can see for themselves how it will work in real terms against their current commute

That they haven't taken fairly simple steps like that (or even producing a single PDF of the full report ) speaks volumes.

_Kaiser_

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's unbelievably simple. What don't you understand?

Look at some of the tweets and misunderstandings from the media and tds over the last week.

Perception here is everything. It might BE unbelievably simple (to enthusiasts), but average Joe and Mary won't be trawling through pdfs and maps to make sense of it - they'll rely on news reports and leaflets to summarise it for them.

Like it or not, that's the reality.

It makes no difference to me personally as I don't live in Dublin anymore myself and haven't been on a Dublin Bus in about 4 years... But the benefits seem to be getting lost among talk of wait times and mid-journey changes (which we don't have good experiences of historically).

There's a lot to be done to win the hearts and minds in my view, and it's essential if this is to have any hope of succeeding

Zebra3

There is no misunderstanding from politicians.

Calculated grandstanding is all they engage in.

Lowlifes.

Stephen15

I think the NTA and Jarrett Walker should come out saying about the plan that people may have to switch buses at certain even though most journeys now can still be done direct. It's very easy to understand I've even explained it to people who don't know much about transport and they got it. It's actually far simpler to someone not in the know now than the current network is.

I firmly believe the silent majority are in favour of the plan but it will be a vocal minority who are against it.

loyatemu

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It sounds to me (and I admit that I haven't read much of this plan beyond what's being posted and debated here) that this whole thing is an overcomplicated mess that very few seem to fully understand (enthusiasts here don't really represent the masses) and that this is in turn being used to make it mean "whatever we want it to mean" in response to each specific question.

Unless the people behind this start getting their message out clearly and quickly, it'll all fall apart in the face of electioneering and misunderstandings.

The existing network is already an overcomplicated mess, it's just that people are used to the small bits that they use regularly.

Part of the problem is that people don't use the existing system as a "network" because they don't understand the bits they don't regularly use, and the fare system and lousy frequency on many routes discourages changes. The new network tries to address this.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

loyatemu

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

that's true - people will use the same routes regularly, but currently people will avoid going to destinations (whether for work or leisure) that involve changing buses, because you just can't rely on it or because it takes too long.

BusConnects aims to bring more destinations into reach in a reasonable journey time and to make connections reliable (obviously the infrastructure improvements are key to this as well).

Hopefully people will be able to look a journey and say "well that involves the A bus which is every 5 minutes" in the same way they would be able to do currently with the Luas and be confident they won't be left waiting at a bus stop for half an hour.

LeinsterDub

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Look at some of the tweets and misunderstandings from the media and tds over the last week.

Perception here is everything. It might BE unbelievably simple (to enthusiasts), but average Joe and Mary won't be trawling through pdfs and maps to make sense of it - they'll rely on news reports and leaflets to summarise it for them.

Like it or not, that's the reality.

It makes no difference to me personally as I don't live in Dublin anymore myself and haven't been on a Dublin Bus in about 4 years... But the benefits seem to be getting lost among talk of wait times and mid-journey changes (which we don't have good experiences of historically).

There's a lot to be done to win the hearts and minds in my view, and it's essential if this is to have any hope of succeeding

But it is unbelievably simple.

Quicker buses more often, you may have to change buses.

Cookie_Monster

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Look at some of the tweets and misunderstandings from the media and tds over the last week.

Perception here is everything. It might BE unbelievably simple (to enthusiasts), but average Joe and Mary won't be trawling through pdfs and maps to make sense of it - they'll rely on news reports and leaflets to summarise it for them.

Like it or not, that's the reality.

It makes no difference to me personally as I don't live in Dublin anymore myself and haven't been on a Dublin Bus in about 4 years... But the benefits seem to be getting lost among talk of wait times and mid-journey changes (which we don't have good experiences of historically).

There's a lot to be done to win the hearts and minds in my view, and it's essential if this is to have any hope of succeeding

not just to enthusiasts but to anyone who has ever been on the continent or the UK. Just because some people live in tiny bubble in some specific part of Dublin and can't be bothered to even attempt to understand the documentation before whining on twitter doesn't mean it's not a simple system.

Lord Glentoran

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not just to enthusiasts but to anyone who has ever been on the continent or the UK. Just because some people live in tiny bubble in some specific part of Dublin and can't be bothered to even attempt to understand the documentation before whining on twitter doesn't mean it's not a simple system.

A lot of the Joes and Marys would think they were going to end up in Mars if they had to change buses, or indeed any mode of public transport. Big, simple and direct advertising campaign will be needed.

CatInABox

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

A lot of the Joes and Marys would think they were going to end up in Mars if they had to change buses, or indeed any mode of public transport. Big, simple and direct advertising campaign will be needed.

Presumably, that'll happen once the public consultation is over. Not much point advertising it much now, while it's still somewhat up in the air.

AndrewJRenko

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

A lot of the Joes and Marys would think they were going to end up in Mars if they had to change buses, or indeed any mode of public transport. Big, simple and direct advertising campaign will be needed.

Lots of Joes and Marys managing the switch between the Luas Red/Green line every day.

markpb

One of JWs blog posts says that he prefers to do transformations like this in a single big bang. If we did that in Dublin, I wonder how RPTI would manage without any historical data.

Stephen15

markpb wrote: »

One of JWs blog posts says that he prefers to do transformations like this in a single big bang. If we did that in Dublin, I wonder how RPTI would manage without any historical data.

I heard him being interviewed there recently and he said the new network would be implemented overnight as it would be too complex to implement in stages.

Also if was implemented at a quiet time such as between Christmas and New year or a BH weekend I think we might survive a few days without RPTI.

Dyr

markpb wrote: »

One of JWs blog posts says that he prefers to do transformations like this in a single big bang. If we did that in Dublin, I wonder how RPTI would manage without any historical data.

We could just carry on with the current fictional RTPI

_Kaiser_

As I said above, I think perception and public buy in will be key especially to the notions of changing mid-journey as its not something people generally have good experiences of with buses or rail.

Back when I used them, I took either 3 or 2 (if I fancied the An Lar detour) each way to and from work. The first option was so bad that I often had to pay for a taxi halfway because the connecting bus had left early or not shown at all.

Similarly when I changed jobs and got a commuter train to town and the DART back out, I'd often find myself stranded in Pearse for an hour in the evening because the DART had been late and I missed the connection - leaves on the line was a favorite excuse.

The success of this plan will very much depend on the operators and given that they won't be changing, I have my doubts to be honest.

LeinsterDub

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Lots of Joes and Marys managing the switch between the Luas Red/Green line every day.

"But but the lines don't link up" remember people struggled to understand that you needed to change around OCS. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

LeinsterDub

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As I said above, I think perception and public buy in will be key especially to the notions of changing mid-journey as its not something people generally have good experiences of with buses or rail.

Back when I used them, I took either 3 or 2 (if I fancied the An Lar detour) each way to and from work. The first option was so bad that I often had to pay for a taxi halfway because the connecting bus had left early or not shown at all.

Similarly when I changed jobs and got a commuter train to town and the DART back out, I'd often find myself stranded in Pearse for an hour in the evening because the DART had been late and I missed the connection - leaves on the line was a favorite excuse.

The success of this plan will very much depend on the operators and given that they won't be changing, I have my doubts to be honest.

You where attempting to use the current 'network' in a way it simply hasn't been designed to be used. Frequency and inter change are at the heart of this plan