BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

_Kaiser_

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You where attempting to use the current 'network' in a way it simply hasn't been designed to be used. Frequency and inter change are at the heart of this plan

You're missing the point.

If simple interchanges on the existing network can't be managed because of buses leaving early or not showing, or trains not running on time in a straight line on a track to themselves, then what hope is there that the same groups can manage to run a vastly more complex system of interchange that is even more dependent on that reliability?

It's a nice plan, it's even a good idea, but I have very little faith that even if it was implemented as proposed (which is unlikely, especially with an election probably on the way) that it'll be run anywhere near to target by Dublin Bus and Irish Rail

Podge_irl

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You're missing the point.

If simple interchanges on the existing network can't be managed because of buses leaving early or not showing, or trains not running on time in a straight line on a track to themselves, then what hope is there that the same groups can manage to run a vastly more complex system of interchange that is even more dependent on that reliability?

Except buses leaving early/not showing up will be less of an issue with the BusConnects set up as the frequency will be increased and thus, if you miss your connection, the wait time will be reduced.

Qrt

LeinsterDub wrote: »

"But but the lines don't link up" remember people struggled to understand that you needed to change around OCS. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Don't forget the "why can't I get a luas to Dundrum from Tallaght? They should be direct!"

cgcsb

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It sounds to me (and I admit that I haven't read much of this plan beyond what's being posted and debated here) that this whole thing is an overcomplicated mess that very few seem to fully understand (enthusiasts here don't really represent the masses) and that this is in turn being used to make it mean "whatever we want it to mean" in response to each specific question.

Unless the people behind this start getting their message out clearly and quickly, it'll all fall apart in the face of electioneering and misunderstandings.

The NTA can't improve literacy of politicians though.

Stephen15

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You're missing the point.

If simple interchanges on the existing network can't be managed because of buses leaving early or not showing, or trains not running on time in a straight line on a track to themselves, then what hope is there that the same groups can manage to run a vastly more complex system of interchange that is even more dependent on that reliability?

It's a nice plan, it's even a good idea, but I have very little faith that even if it was implemented as proposed (which is unlikely, especially with an election probably on the way) that it'll be run anywhere near to target by Dublin Bus and Irish Rail

The current isin't designed for interchanging. Journeys aren't timed to intersect with other bus routes, stops aren't properly laid out to facilate people changing buses or to other modes of transport. People also have to pay twice this is also planned to be changed.

The fact is that this project aims to change the elements of Dublin's transport which are currently sub par such as interchanges, frequency and the current network is too complex.

Stephen15

There is too much emphasis being put on the fact some people who will be in the minority will have to change buses. Most areas will still have a direct bus into town with more opportunities for people to go to other areas other than city.

The only people who will have to change for the most are people living in local areas who will likely be able to walk to a bus on a nearby road or people living in outlying areas such as Blessington, Dunboyne, Maynooth and Skerries these areas will benefit from improved frequency despite losing a direct connection.

ThunbergsAreGo

Stephen15 wrote: »

There is too much emphasis being put on the fact some people who will be in the minority will have to change buses. Most areas will still have a direct bus into town with more opportunities for people to go to other areas other than city.

The only people who will have to change for the most are people living in local areas who will likely be able to walk to a bus on a nearby road or people living in outlying areas such as Blessington, Dunboyne, Maynooth and Skerries these areas will benefit from improved frequency despite losing a direct connection.

And those commuting to work lose a direct connection through the port tunnel (in Skerries case) to one that requires going to Swords and then down the Swords Road.

Its clearly going to take longer getting to and from work for these people and the other North Dublin areas that have "lost" the Port Tunnel run

Unless I have missed something and the "commuting buses" are being retained?

Stephen15

naughtb4 wrote: »

And those commuting to work lose a direct connection through the port tunnel (in Skerries case) to one that requires going to Swords and then down the Swords Road.

Its clearly going to take longer getting to and from work for these people and the other North Dublin areas that have "lost" the Port Tunnel run

Unless I have missed something and the "commuting buses" are being retained?

Even tough Skerries could potentially have the DART in a few years time and currently has an hourly train. Also there is the Fingal Express which serves Skerries which be perhaps expanded after bus connects.

dashcamdanny

Stephen15 wrote: »

There is too much emphasis being put on the fact some people who will be in the minority will have to change buses. Most areas will still have a direct bus into town with more opportunities for people to go to other areas other than city.

The only people who will have to change for the most are people living in local areas who will likely be able to walk to a bus on a nearby road or people living in outlying areas such as Blessington, Dunboyne, Maynooth and Skerries these areas will benefit from improved frequency despite losing a direct connection.

Is there any data on how many people will have to change?

I know some of my routes have a full bus in the first two to three stops in the morning.

Current plans will have them all out on the street after the 4th stop. Waiting for another bus.

I think a few express busses may need to be included in some areas at peak time.

XPS_Zero

L1011 wrote: »

This survey format is awful for people with large amounts of constructive comments and seems to be designed to allow whining about single routes - not a good idea.

They do ask what you've read before commenting, I do hope the people who clearly haven't read the report don't lie...

Thankfully popular consultations are more, in my exp, about the illusion of consultation rather than actual consultation hopefully that is the case here, because to be brutally honest, and I don't care if I sound like an elitist here here: people, esp in this era, tend to have incredibly strong, almost fanatical opinions on things they lack even the most basic knowledge of.

Look at the UK with Brexit (regardless of what one thinks of it): people talking about the lack of democracy in the EU when all the laws are passed by elected representatives, they talk about the UK being "dictated to" on EU laws when the UK was on the winning side of 97% of all votes, they complain about EU directives but can't name specific ones that bother them.


But this is more dangerious this is lack of knowledge about something COMBINED with parish pump populism and local-only thinking pumped up by flaws in our political system, and that toxic combination could damage or destroy this plan. In order to stop that happening it's critical they explain it properly in a simple easy to understand way.

MJohnston

naughtb4 wrote: »

And those commuting to work lose a direct connection through the port tunnel (in Skerries case) to one that requires going to Swords and then down the Swords Road.

Its clearly going to take longer getting to and from work for these people and the other North Dublin areas that have "lost" the Port Tunnel run

Unless I have missed something and the "commuting buses" are being retained?

I'm guessing the Port Tunnel routes have been removed as they are inefficient in the sense of travelling several miles without any stops.


There could easily be an expansion of the Fingal Express route once the 33X no longer runs. In addition, Skerries will benefit from the DART expansion and the MetroLink in the future.

MJohnston

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Thankfully popular consultations are more, in my exp, about the illusion of consultation rather than actual consultation hopefully that is the case here, because to be brutally honest, and I don't care if I sound like an elitist here here: people, esp in this era, tend to have incredibly strong, almost fanatical opinions on things they lack even the most basic knowledge of.

Look at the UK with Brexit (regardless of what one thinks of it): people talking about the lack of democracy in the EU when all the laws are passed by elected representatives, they talk about the UK being "dictated to" on EU laws when the UK was on the winning side of 97% of all votes, they complain about EU directives but can't name specific ones that bother them.


But this is more dangerious this is lack of knowledge about something COMBINED with parish pump populism and local-only thinking pumped up by flaws in our political system, and that toxic combination could damage or destroy this plan. In order to stop that happening it's critical they explain it properly in a simple easy to understand way.

I basically agree with this, however I would hope that Jarrett Walker is a real benefit to the BusConnects plan, being as vocal and available as he is. He might provide a much-needed expert counterweight to the public consultation that our infrastructure projects rarely receive. He's also no-nonsense and uses plain language to get his point across, which is very welcome.

ThunbergsAreGo

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm guessing the Port Tunnel routes have been removed as they are inefficient in the sense of travelling several miles without any stops.


There could easily be an expansion of the Fingal Express route once the 33X no longer runs. In addition, Skerries will benefit from the DART expansion and the MetroLink in the future.

Removing the 142 from Malahide (a very well used service) seems a backwards step

The trains mentioned above are already at capacity, with increasing population and a reduced service from the buses (and the port tunnel is the only way the bus service can compete with trains) . So this plan doesn't serve those people who commute into the city from North Dublin towns. It offers them a degraded service.

MJohnston

naughtb4 wrote: »

Removing the 142 from Malahide (a very well used service) seems a backwards step

The trains mentioned above are already at capacity, with increasing population and a reduced service from the buses (and the port tunnel is the only way the bus service can compete with trains) . So this plan doesn't serve those people who commute into the city from North Dublin towns. It offers them a degraded service.

Meh, I think this is an exaggeration. The 142 runs through Malahide 5 times in the morning, only 4 times in the evening. Meanwhile under BusConnects Malahide will have a D spine route running every 30 minutes, a connection with the Swords spine routes, and a DART line right in the town.

I think Malahide residents are well served.

XPS_Zero

Bambi wrote: »

Funny I was told that when I pointed out the NTA never put the full report in a single file. That's when I'm not being told that I haven't read any of this report

Ask Jarret, but the reason is that it's cute hoorism on his part, which does not bode well

Like his catchy statement

Under the plan, the average* Dubliner can get to 20% more useful places** in 45 minutes.***

Which sounds great but has so many qualified terms in it you should read it as the 9 out of 10 cat prefer Wiskas advertising guff it is.


What should be selling this plan is X amount more buses, X amount of entirely new routes and average waiting times across the network reduced by X.


Let's have a look at some of Lyle Lanleys oh so slightly passive aggressive attempts to address criticism

How dare I take away my direct route to the city? Because it’s really infrequent and inefficient, and we can get you there sooner another way

Is it? Really? There's plenty of very frequent routes in dublin right now that are efficient from the passenger perspective so straight off he's bull****ting, as for the claim that he can get you there sooner (not faster cos Jarret is an equivocating mofo ) via an alternate route, big words but not backed up with anything. Why not put a route planner on the busconnects site so people can see how much more efficient this proposed network is in practical terms? That would really sell it.

I'm not even sure that the bould Jarret knows why Irish people hate transfer services. Maybe someone should put him wide on twitter


How can people change buses, or walk to a different stop in an intersection, when it’s windy and raining? His answer is basically that the bus stops will be nice and anyway you'll just get used to it. Yeah, we get used to a lot of things but that's not a selling point for blowing all our tax euros. Frankly, based on the NTA attitude to bus stops and pedestrian space, the proposed bus shelter promise won't survive first contact with reality anyway

How will this affect older people and people with disabilities? There is an unavoidable tension between senior and disabled needs – which are much more inconvenienced by interchange and thats about it, mention of undefined measures to lessen the blow

So GFY gramps as far as Jarret is concerned

Tbh the more I see of this the more I go from thinking it's a generally good plan wrapped in some NTA horse manure to thinking it's an outright monorail. Still lot of money to be made off it. all that road widening and such.

How would seniors or disabled be harmed by having to change busses? They already change to DARTs or Luas's or to other routes now, today. What disability makes it impossible for you to step off a bus onto a bus shelter, wait there for a 5 min and then step back onto another bus? How does age prevent one doing this or make it harder, I'm not seeing it?

The weather point I do see, and I can totally see them cheaping out on shelters which is a point that needs to be majorly pushed, that bus stop/interchange commitment needs to be pressured (imo far more would be gained using political capital and pressure on politicos to force promises like this to be kept than whinging about losing my own micky mouse route). Examples abound of them doing this already. The stop on Wyatville road at the flyover (nearest stop to the end of the Luas Green line for the 145s) and the one AT the Luas Brides Glen Stop for the 7's and 84s are both just a pole in the concrete, it's absoloutly horrible to stand there (esp since it's at height) in the lashings of rain with no shelter whatsoever, and the Luas stop one was only built recently, the fact that they never considered a bus shelter or seats in a stop where there are huge gaps between busses at a major interchange worries me, but at least this will be the NTA not DB.


I have to admit mate, I could not help but laugh at the idea of "efficient from a passenger perspective"...that's not how this stuff works. It's about what works for wider society on a macro scale when you zoom out. The Ballybrophy line costing more than a plane ticket to Isreal per passenger is efficient from the perspective of the 7 people who take it every day. We have to look at doing the greatest good for the greatest number.


I agree a mock planner app on the website would be ideal.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It sounds to me (and I admit that I haven't read much of this plan beyond what's being posted and debated here) that this whole thing is an overcomplicated mess that very few seem to fully understand (enthusiasts here don't really represent the masses) and that this is in turn being used to make it mean "whatever we want it to mean" in response to each specific question.



Unless the people behind this start getting their message out clearly and quickly, it'll all fall apart in the face of electioneering and misunderstandings.

They don't understand it YET, they will. They didn't understand Leap at first, but we got the hang of it.

I agree ie public reps which is why Busconnects should be doing breifings to TDs and council members, even a video breifing they can all watch, or one that can be posted to youtube, anyone with an ounce of PR sense could have told them this.

Never underestimate the stupidity of elected representatives, they really do represent the electorate in many ways, including their ability to grasp basic information. However you should never rule out that some of them, who might fully understand the plan, might be spreading misinformation about it if they think local outrage will give them some advantage or get them some press. Put nothing past any of them.

I nearly got a migrane when I first looked at it too, but when you get used to it it's quite simple, you have a few high speed frequent routes, and others branch off that and further away they branch more frequency drops, you change bus once in exchange for getting to your destination faster.

If they could just explain this in a snappy youtube video complete with maps and animations alongside providing a mock route planner people would get it. I refuse to believe amatuer movie channels like Ralphthemoviemaker can review movies using clips, animations and voiceovers but the government can't find someone to do this for a simple bus plan.

Make one, then promote the hell out of it on social media to get it out there, it's not rocket science lads. Remember not everyones an anorak.


I think some of you are being unfair to Kiasers point, I think he's saying that the Irish publics experience of transport has made them so cynical they just wont believe, flat out won't believe that when they get off bus A1 that bus A2 or whatever will show up within 10 min and they'll be sitting there drenched at some bus stop without a shelter for half an hour then 4 A2 will turn up at the same time, because tha'ts been their experience. I get that were trying to CHANGE that, but you undestimate just HOW cynical the public is about these projects.

Do you know what the universal reaction I found to this plan from people was? Not that it was too complex or they'd never do it right, the universal reaction was: great, my great great grandkids might see it. Thats their experience from MEtro and DU, they regularly hear about all these wonderful projects were gonna do but apart from Luas they never ACTUALLY MATERIALIZE. Metro and DU were reannounced twice by FF then canceled by FG during the recession then they came up with a metro plan as if it was their idea and it was the first time anyone had thought of it and basically told us it was at least 10 years away maybe more. The first line was due for completion in the late 2000s, that's 10 years ago, and were STILL farting around with planning permission and consultations for it.

Were also really bad with interchanges in this country. The Luas connections to Connoly and Heuston are a rare trickle of common sense. I already ranted about the stupidity of the bus/luas interchange at the end of the Green line. We had a tunnel connecting the two that we didn't use for decades.

It's not just with transport, any time a major reform plan is announced in Ireland it dies a death. People forget with how the HSE brand is poison it was Micheal Martins original plan to SAVE the health service from the creaky health board system, the idea was to abolish them and replace them with one unified board to make all the decisions. Instead of abolishing them though, due to union moaning they were MERGED and we ended up with massive staff duplication where wages and admin sucked up all the increaces in funds over the years taking cash away from font line services. Same with the proposed legal system reforms which have died twice just in the last 10 years.

A major change to the education system to make it the best funded in Europe was announced at the start of the last govt in 2011, I rememer Fintin OToole calculating how much it would require in funds and predicting that the govt would go for the more short term popular options of tax cuts and welfare increaces instead and that is EXACTLY what they did - plan was quietly abandoned.


I could give you 10 more examples.

You can see how people would be cynical.

Qrt wrote: »

Don't forget the "why can't I get a luas to Dundrum from Tallaght? They should be direct!"

I remember asking that, seeing the connections on the tracks and asking why every second tram or so didn't connect the lines and it was explained to me that worldwide changing lines is the norm because it's faster, and it made sense to me. This will work IF IT'S EXPLAINED properly. If they just assume people will get it on their own (which is the approch they seem to be taking now) it will fall apart.


They need to do a better job promoting this plan.

Daith

XPS_Zero wrote: »

How would seniors or disabled be harmed by having to change busses? They already change to DARTs or Luas's or to other routes now, today. What disability makes it impossible for you to step off a bus onto a bus shelter, wait there for a 5 min and then step back onto another bus? How does age prevent one doing this or make it harder, I'm not seeing it?

What? Also what happens if the bus you're on has a free wheelchair space but the bus you're transferring to doesn't? You just wait longer? Getting somewhere quicker may mean less to people than getting a wheelchair or pram space.

I'm for the changes but you can't dismiss that transferring could impact these people and not all of them currently do any transfers. I do think this wouldn't impact a huge majority but just something to take account of.

jd

MJohnston wrote: »

Meh, I think this is an exaggeration. The 142 runs through Malahide 5 times in the morning, only 4 times in the evening. Meanwhile under BusConnects Malahide will have a D spine route running every 30 minutes, a connection with the Swords spine routes, and a DART line right in the town.

I think Malahide residents are well served.

Dart will go to 20 minute frequencies.
Also the 381 will be a twice daily Malahide-Portmarnock-UCD express service (with reverse in evening)

Stephen15

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm guessing the Port Tunnel routes have been removed as they are inefficient in the sense of travelling several miles without any stops.


There could easily be an expansion of the Fingal Express route once the 33X no longer runs. In addition, Skerries will benefit from the DART expansion and the MetroLink in the future.

Also DB could apply for a licence to the NTA to continue to operate some of the Port Tunnel services as non PSO routes to compete with the Swords and Fingal Express.

jd

There are peak services from/to Swords that use the tunnel. 382 and 384

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1248/map3-peakonly.pdf

Podge_irl

Daith wrote: »

What? Also what happens if the bus you're on has a free wheelchair space but the bus you're transferring to doesn't? You just wait longer? Getting somewhere quicker may mean less to people than getting a wheelchair or pram space.

How is that any different from now apart from where the problem occurs? The fact that frequency is increasing means that this will be less of an issue. If the wheelchair space is taken on a once-hourly route then you are screwed for an hour. Now it means that there should be another bus in 20/30 mins if you are on an outer route. On the spine routes there is a bus every 5 minutes, so you might have to wait 5 mins - potentially irritating but not debilitating.

Muahahaha

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's a nice plan, it's even a good idea, but I have very little faith that even if it was implemented as proposed (which is unlikely, especially with an election probably on the way) that it'll be run anywhere near to target by Dublin Bus and Irish Rail

Kinda the way I feel about it. Everything looks great on paper now and Im fully behind the plan as a concept but I also think that as soon as Jarret Walker and his team leave Dublin things could fall apart.

I think at a minimum for the plan to work we need the NTA to force Dublin Bus to publish true and accurate stats for buses that dont show up/are cancelled, etc. In fact it shouldnt even be left to DB, just have the GPS data of each bus displayed live online and soon people will be able to prove they are not delivering the service that they claim they are to the NTA.

Dyr

Muahahaha wrote: »

I think at a minimum for the plan to work we need the NTA to force Dublin Bus to publish true and accurate stats for buses that dont show up/are cancelled, etc. In fact it shouldnt even be left to DB, just have the GPS data of each bus displayed live online and soon people will be able to prove they are not delivering the service that they claim they are to the NTA.

Dublin Bus regularly run buses along their route that are actually out of service so GPS wont work in those instances.

I have a feeling JW didn't put boots on the ground very much when they were researching this plan.

Muahahaha

Bambi wrote: »

Dublin Bus regularly run buses along their route that are actually out of service so GPS wont work in those instances.

I have a feeling JW didn't put boots on the ground very much when they were researching this plan.

Hadnt thought of buses As Seirbhis. Regardless there has to be someway of collating data of how many buses are running against how many are supposed to run. If it means linking the ticket machines to NTA HQ for analysis then so be it. Im not a frequent user myself so when I do use DB I must be awful unlucky to come across buses that dont show up or else the problem is actually bigger than Dublin Bus is willing to admit. This whole plan is predicated on spines that have high frequencies which on paper is a good idea. But if what is promised is not delivered then it quickly falls apart and people are left waiting too long for a transfer. Very quickly widespread annoyance will set in and people will be calling for a reversal to the old system.

I filled in the survey earlier stating Im behind the plan but including the above as a caveat. That and for Blanch SC to work as a hub there needs to be serious investment in bus lanes and priority in the area. Right now the SC is over capacity and the area suffers from huge traffic problems. If buses do not have priority then they will be snarled up in traffic like everyone else and the plan fails.

thomasj

This was was from roderic O'Gorman

http://rodericogorman.com/?p=2682

The NTA understand that, in order for the proposed new plan to work, major changes will have to be made to the Blanchardstown Town Centre as it will be the major hub for Dublin 15. They will be bringing forward details in October about the infrastructure changes they are proposing to make here.

However, they accepted that there will have to be a significant improvement in waiting facilities at the Town Centre and that the needs of persons with disabilities would be taken account of here.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Qrt

I was in the German city of Flensburg today. They have a large island platform akin to a train station where multiple buses pull in and out. Flensburg ZOB I think they refer to it as. That should be our aim.

AlekSmart

Qrt wrote: »

I was in the German city of Flensburg today. They have a large island platform akin to a train station where multiple buses pull in and out. Flensburg ZOB I think they refer to it as. That should be our aim.

Very Germanic,and far too simple in execution for where the NTA currently are.....The Blanch rework will,most likely require a totally seperate planning application,environmental impact assessment,and be subject to an appeals process,and end up in a compromise..mainland Europe is FULL of such simplistic and functional infrastructure......TOO simple.....:eek:

_Kaiser_

AlekSmart wrote: »

Very Germanic,and far too simple in execution for where the NTA currently are.....The Blanch rework will,most likely require a totally seperate planning application,environmental impact assessment,and be subject to an appeals process,and end up in a compromise..mainland Europe is FULL of such simplistic and functional infrastructure......TOO simple.....:eek:

The other difference I think is that after the War, much of the continent's cities were in ruins and so the idea of decent public transport infrastructure could be built from scratch and expanded upon over time.

Whereas in Ireland we ripped up tram and rail lines and spent a fortune relaying 2 of them in Dublin, and removed most of any remaining space with urban sprawl.

Dyr

Qrt wrote: »

I was in the German city of Flensburg today. They have a large island platform akin to a train station where multiple buses pull in and out. Flensburg ZOB I think they refer to it as. That should be our aim.

Like busaras? Real benefit to the environs that is

Or Perhaps like the giant bus shed they wanted to turn temple bar into

Can't see a giant bus stop being too popular an idea

Qrt

Bambi wrote: »

Like busaras? Real benefit to the environs that is

Or Perhaps like the giant bus shed they wanted to turn temple bar into

Can't see a giant bus stop being too popular an idea

I'm talking for suburban centres, The Square and Blanch and the like. It was essentially a large island platform with a kiosk and nice shelter.

There's an image on google maps here.