BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

L1011

If you think the complaints about distance to routes is bad now, wait til the stop revision happens. There has to be a higher distance between stops and every single proposal will cause consternation

There's a thread here on ridiculously close stops, expect most of them to be revised but also generally across the network

monument

At the joint transport committee @DermotLeary is getting mad at @humantransit's idea of some people switching buses (so that there's an overall better network) and also getting mad that Walker said that the plan can't survive more than 15% changes. https://twitter.com/cianginty/status/1019628211511222274

Qrt

A2000 wrote: »

Qrt wrote: »

And people on tripods are unable to push a trolly. Who is generalising now?

You, as that would be a gross generalisation.

Cookie_Monster

Tae laidir wrote: »

I dip in and out of this forum and find it most interesting and frustrating.
As a user of buses in the south west of the city, I would like to keep myself informed about the minutiae of the south west of the city, but have limited interest in the minutiae of other areas.
As the main corridors appear to be defined and named, would it be appropriate for the moderators or any other of the well informed contributors to this site to set up separate forums for each of the corridors?
This forum could then be used general issues about Bus Connect.

there's already a thread in dublin county south for local discussion
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057891018

KD345

Zebra3 wrote: »

More scaremongering nonsense.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/some-areas-will-lose-out-under-dublin-bus-redesign-37130156.html

This is the opinion of the NBRU and I think they’re correct in some of their claims. There are communities losing their bus with no replacement. That’s not really scaremongering nonsense, it’s factual.

Areas such as St.Margarets, Rivermeade, Toberburr, Rolestown, Glencullen, Kilgarron and Kilmolin are just some of the areas losing their bus. So, when they claim outer communities will lose out, they are not wrong.

I also agree that many of these changes will affect elderly passengers. For example, one of the more popular routes on the network, the 123, is being shortened and rerouted. The link between Drimnagh and Walkinstown is being chopped, as is the connection between Malahide Road and Marino. The latter really is baffling considering they are removing a connection to a new spine. The 123 is also being taken out of St.James’ Hospital and Thomas Street and instead going through Conyngham Road. That’s not to say elderly people cannot make a change, but if the question of whether there is more demand for the 123 to be going through Thomas Street or Conyngham Road I would argue for Thomas Street.

On the other side of Drimnagh, they plan to cancel the 122 removing connections to Camden Street and South Circular Road.

The NBRU have a right to speak out if they believe some changes are wrong. Equally, if people are happy with the proposals it is important they too make their voice heard.

Personally, I think there are some great ideas in the proposals, but I have real concerns about the frequency and capacity in some areas. I also think it’s unacceptable to be removing routes likes the 185, 44b, 40b from outer communities. It is insulting that’s this hasn’t even been referenced or explained in the documents.

Most of the plans and success of Bus Connects are based on factors outside of its control - things like bus priority, changeover facilities, DART frequency, Luas capacity, College Green and Parliament Street etc.

Thankfully, the public consultations will help in addressing these concerns. It’s going to be an interesting few weeks. I believe the final Bus Connects plan will look very different to what has been proposed.

A2000

Qrt wrote: »

A2000 wrote: »

You, as that would be a gross generalisation.

I live and work in the area. With the people who will be affected. Im a home help and deliver meals on wheels. I have spoken to these people. On tripods. Who sre worried about loosing thier independence and thier link to the outside world. My statements are based on fact. The elderly are worried. In general.

Qrt

A2000 wrote: »

Qrt wrote: »

I live and work in the area. With the people who will be affected. Im a home help and deliver meals on wheels. I have spoken to these people. On tripods. Who sre worried about loosing thier independence and thier link to the outside world. My statements are based on fact. The elderly are worried. In general.

Oh I get what you're saying, but you accused me of unjustly generalising while also generalising and I'm just making sure you know that.

Stephen15

Trade unions should just get with their job of represting workers and stop trying to get involved in affairs which don't matter to them. They should trying to restore workers t+cs after the plan but they have no business getting involved trying to block proposals unless they effect the workers they represent negatively.

As long as drivers still have the same pay and conditions what difference does it make to them?

charlietheminxx

I simply can’t fathom why the 33X wasn’t retained as part of the proposed network. It’s always so busy.

A2000

Qrt wrote: »

A2000 wrote: »

Oh I get what you're saying, but you accused me of unjustly generalising while also generalising and I'm just making sure you know that.

I think if you read back it was you who made the accusation of generalising

thomasj

I wonder would the nta consider setting up a localink service in Dublin to help resolve issue around the remote areas losing bus services The ones that you see in rural Ireland.

jd

TD Catherine Murphy is another one who appears not to understand how network will work

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/some-major-bus-routes-will-be-worse-off-under-2bn-reform-plan-tds-warn-1.3569469

Problems will arise in Lucan and Leixlip, warned Social Democrats TD Catherine Murphy, who said passengers there currently can get a City Speed bus direct to Heuston Station from Lucan in 25 minutes.

However, such passengers will have to change en route under the National Transport Authority’s (NTA) plan, while people living in Carpenterstown will have to travel out to Blanchardstown before getting a city-bound service.

Lucan and Leixlip will have a C3 and C4 into town. It appears she thinks people will have to change to a C bus. Carpenterstown will have a 37 into town

devnull

CITY SPEED. Now that's a name I haven't heard in a while.

Honestly though quite a few people seem to be making similar mistakes to her and I can see why at first glance she would but reading the report in detail would educate her better.

The more I read about this though the more concern is the plan will heavily be watered down. The network needs a big redesign but like a lot of things people don't like change as they like familiarity even when what's familiar is broken.

Qrt

A2000 wrote: »

Qrt wrote: »

I think if you read back it was you who made the accusation of generalising

But you are the one who did it in the first place, then accused me of the same thing as if it was something new. Anyway, this is growing a bit tiring.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

CITY SPEED. Now that's a name I haven't heard in a while.

Honestly though quite a few people seem to be making similar mistakes to her and I can see why at first glance she would but reading the report in detail would educate her better.

The more I read about this though the more concern is the plan will heavily be watered down. The network needs a big redesign but like a lot of things people don't like change as they like familiarity even when what's familiar is broken.

I fear you are correct.

Already,we are in the throes of Ochón ochóning our way around the very commendable and future-focused Busconnects plan.

It is as if Dublin's Bus services,are in fact 100% there to act as a disability focused provision,with absolutely no requirement to be structured to support those who remain able-bodied and ambulent.

It may well be the case,that the NTA finds itself without a Media Savvy frontman for Busconnects in Dublin.

Jarrett Walker is doing his best,but he has a business to run,and he is embedded in several projects across the World at any one time.

Like it or not,Dermot O'Leary has grasped the standard of the "retainers" and the Media coverage is reflecting his adroit footwork and lack of fear of a microphone.

Anne Graham,I'm afraid is not going to be a robust enough challenger to him.

This battle will be won,or lost,on media bytes...and so far,Dermot O'Leary is WAY ahead.

The news that the NTA is considering extending this "consultation" process is further indication of a certain lack of confidence in Dún Sceine.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-in-10-dublin-bus-routes-will-no-longer-go-direct-to-city-37133851.html

The National Transport Authority (NTA) said it would consider extending the public consultation period on the proposed 'Bus Connects' project beyond the end of September after TDs and senators said affected communities, which fear losing their services, needed time to engage in the process.

If it would result in a few more TD's and Senators reading through the actual report and perhaps interacting with Jarrett Walker tgemselves I might agree,however I see this as just a kick the can down the road exercise,something which we have VAST experience of.

One example of the NTA's naivety might be seen here...

NTA chief executive Anne Graham told the Dáil Transport Committee the new system was designed to provide an improved service, but that some people would be :eek: forced:eek: to change from one bus to another to access their final destination.

She said around 10pc of existing services would no longer travel directly, but this was a "trade-off".

An effective Media advisor would have steered Ms Graham towards a more accurate,less physical term than "Forced"...however a sub-editor would be rubbing their hands

All in all,the past fortnight,has shown a worrying lack of understanding,and even committment from the Administrative Leadership......I see a fudge in the making,which I suspect will result eventually in Jarrett Walker washing his hands of the entire process and walking away...cos he won't be able to get a bus.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

One example of the NTA's naivety might be seen here...

An effective Media advisor would have steered Ms Graham towards a more accurate,less physical term than "Forced"...however a sub-editor would be rubbing their hands

Did Anne Graham use the word forced?

The article doesn't directly say that she did, because the passage that you quote contains no direct quote from Anne saying so, rather it contains paraphrasing and normally when paraphrasing is used it is because that someone is changing the words that were used, normally to either make them more clear, or to apply some kind of spin.

I'd far prefer it if the journalists who are reporting on the matter be transparent simply quote what people actually say rather than paraphrasing it, because often when paraphrasing is used, it allows opinion to creep in and someones view whereas quotes are neutral.

All in all,the past fortnight,has shown a worrying lack of understanding,and even committment from the Administrative Leadership......I see a fudge in the making,which I suspect will result eventually in Jarrett Walker washing his hands of the entire process and walking away...cos he won't be able to get a bus.

I hope that doesn't happen but the longer this goes on the more I would worry about it, but as I said before people don't like change, once they get familiar with a system, even if it's bad and serves them not great, many of those same people don't want it to change, but then will still be unhappy with the service that is provided.

There's also been talk in recent NTA board meetings according to their site about a lack of staff in the company to discharge their duties, apparently this has been raised at a higher level, since apparently it's outside the control of the NTA at the moment, I assume because of DFT funding for the expanded team?

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

Did Anne Graham use the word forced?

The article doesn't directly say that she did, because the passage that you quote contains no direct quote from Anne saying so, rather it contains paraphrasing and normally when paraphrasing is used it is because that someone is changing the words that were used, normally to either make them more clear, or to apply some kind of spin.

I'd far prefer it if the journalists who are reporting on the matter be transparent simply quote what people actually say rather than paraphrasing it, because often when paraphrasing is used, it allows opinion to creep in and someones view whereas quotes are neutral.

I hope that doesn't happen but the longer this goes on the more I would worry about it, but as I said before people don't like change, once they get familiar with a system, even if it's bad and serves them not great, many of those same people don't want it to change, but then will still be unhappy with the service that is provided.

There's also been talk in recent NTA board meetings according to their site about a lack of staff in the company to discharge their duties, apparently this has been raised at a higher level, since apparently it's outside the control of the NTA at the moment, I assume because of DFT funding for the expanded team?

It does'nt need Anne Graham actually saying anything....The General Public will read that article and take it as verbatim out of her mouth.

An effective Media person would have pounced on that "FORCED" and immediately taken corrective action,or ensured Ms Grahams phraseology was sufficiently trained to avoid such interpretation.

Tha NTA's staffing "issues" are indeed causing difficulties,particularly when the numbers of staff seconded from other bodies,such as Local Authorities is taken into account.

The decision to make the DUBLIN Transport Authority a NATIONAL one,may yet assume importance in this regard.

With the significant added workload required for the 2019 round of PSO award process,including,the potentially explosive Irish Rail award,this could see the BusConnects programme suffering greatly,at the very time it needs a Sustained process of support and focus.

Hopefully,the Bus Atha Cliath roadshow programme will bring a bit of + focus to the plan when it moves out to the burb's...?

Right now...nobody is selling BusConnects-The Plan

Stephen15

The good thing about this proposal is that the survey which was done last year had an overwhelmingly positive reaction. And it got a brilliant response rate from what I believe also which was 1% of the entire Dublin population which is really good for a survey.

Hopefully and I pray to God that this plan is pushed through as I firmly believe that the silent majority support it.

plodder

For what it's worth. Notwithstanding my complaint earlier about not covering all the areas that are currently covered by DB, and I think that problem can be solved, I do think the big ideas in the plan are good ones. The current network works well enough for the commuter who makes the same journey every day Monday to Friday into city centre and out again. It's fairly hopeless as a proper network though, where you can make random journeys between any two points, easily and with predictable journey times. The fact that there is no proper easily digestable map of the network is testament to this.

cgcsb

dfx- wrote: »

As a user of the goddamned-to-hell never-to-be-seen-again 56 service to Dolphins Barn, there is a very high proportion of very unobservant users of buses. People wanting to go to town, already putting money in not having read the big sign on the front of the bus or the number on the front or the sign in the front window or sign on the driver's door that the bus was operating to Dolphins Barn.

People who don't look at maps, don't use apps, don't consult with experts or pore over every detail, don't even look at the bus they're getting on or where it's going.

But they are still bus users. So it's a very big challenge ahead and not to be underestimated how unaware people can be. And prepare for them slowing everything down, not just to steam ahead with the shiny technological change and expect them to catch up.

first few days will need NTA staff in high vis vests at important stops directing the sheeple around

cgcsb

A2000 wrote: »

You are missing the point. People in cherry orchard use the 79 to get to the post office chemist etc. The stop they bosrd at is much further than 300 meters away.. elderly people are unable to carry shopping any distance. So withdrawing thier service is no improvement

Old people have little tarten trolleys for their shopping. If people can walk 'no distance' then public transport in general is out as an option.

cgcsb

jd wrote: »

TD Catherine Murphy is another one who appears not to understand how network will work

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/some-major-bus-routes-will-be-worse-off-under-2bn-reform-plan-tds-warn-1.3569469



Lucan and Leixlip will have a C3 and C4 into town. It appears she thinks people will have to change to a C bus. Carpenterstown will have a 37 into town

If anything it shines a light on a literacy problem among TDs and Councilors.

cgcsb

O'Leary has thrown the working classes under the bus. He's now claiming that 'deprived areas will be further isolated' and that 'affluent areas will be unaffected'. He's obviously gunning for another industrial dispute. It seems that the bus driver must be by far the best paid person on a bus at any one time.

devnull

cgcsb wrote: »

O'Leary has thrown the working classes under the bus. He's now claiming that 'deprived areas will be further isolated' and that 'affluent areas will be unaffected'. He's obviously gunning for another industrial dispute. It seems that the bus driver must be by far the best paid person on a bus at any one time.

No doubt if there is a strike coming up they will mask it as being over both the terms and the conditions of the staff as well as trying to save the public bus service, in the same way that he tried to publicly give the impression the last Bus Eireann strike was about draconian cuts to rural services when actually it was all about the staff.

A2000

cgcsb wrote: »

Old people have little tarten trolleys for their shopping. If people can walk 'no distance' then public transport in general is out as an option.

Such rubbish. People go out all the time on tripods and cannot push a trolley as well. People are so dissmissive of tge elderly and infirm as if they dont count in plans for the future as they are going to die anyway. The old folks were given bus passes and should have the means to use them. Nobody mentioned no distance. Please read posts properly before posting ageist comments like that. Old people matter too

sharper

A2000 wrote: »

Old people matter too

Of course they do and many old people will be able travel to many more areas under the new plan than they can now.

You can't have a network that brings everyone directly to the city centre but also allows them to travel to any other destination while also having a high frequence and reliable service.

The real world only has a certain amount of physical space to fit all those busses and only a certain amount of resources to pay for it all.

The status quo is also bad for old people. I would say an old person is less well able to handle waiting at a bus stop for a service that only runs once an hour which is often heavily delayed because of its long route. They're also less able to check the real time information, even in the situations where that would help.

There has to be a balancing of concerns to find the best outcome or at least a better outcome. Not every single individual is going to win in this change either objectively (because they actually are inconvenienced) or subjectively (because in the end they'll realise having to change wasn't so bad after all and now they get there faster).

A2000

If you read the previous posts you would see that 2 old folks complexes are losing thier service snd so will be unable to connect to ANYWHERE. no point in having connections that cant be reached. They have a service now but wont after bus connects so how is this an improvement? Taking a service away after 70 years? The grey vote is very important to the government so we will see. A lot of politicians are reading the plans wrong. Cant wait to see what happens when the realise the impact for some.

sharper

A2000 wrote: »

If you read the previous posts you would see that 2 old folks complexes are losing thier service snd so will be unable to connect to ANYWHERE. no point in having connections that cant be reached. They have a service now but wont after bus connects so how is this an improvement? Taking a service away after 70 years? The grey vote is very important to the government so we will see. A lot of politicians are reading the plans wrong. Cant wait to see what happens when the realise the impact for some.

In cases where services are being lost completely I'd wait for a response from the NTA first. There's no way you're going to totally redesign the entire network and get every route correct on the first try.

That's very different to the issues being discussed where old people can't change busses or an old person might be using an existing stop.

Stephen15

A2000 wrote: »

If you read the previous posts you would see that 2 old folks complexes are losing thier service snd so will be unable to connect to ANYWHERE. no point in having connections that cant be reached. They have a service now but wont after bus connects so how is this an improvement? Taking a service away after 70 years? The grey vote is very important to the government so we will see. A lot of politicians are reading the plans wrong. Cant wait to see what happens when the realise the impact for some.

Your using an individual example of an area that's being affected by the plan. I'm not familiar with the 79 bus but is it an efficient bus, does it take lots of detours off the main road to serve housing estates during it's trip?

Have you ever heard the saying one man's trash is another man's treasure. Yes some people may be put out slightly but the majority will see their service improve including the elderly. Also many areas have elderly people living in them but don't have a direct bus service so people have to walk to the main roads I haven't heard anyone complain in these areas either.

You seem to think an area should have a bus service just because it's always had one even if it no longer makes sense to have one.

r93kaey5p2izun

jd wrote: »

TD Catherine Murphy is another one who appears not to understand how network will work

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/some-major-bus-routes-will-be-worse-off-under-2bn-reform-plan-tds-warn-1.3569469



Lucan and Leixlip will have a C3 and C4 into town. It appears she thinks people will have to change to a C bus. Carpenterstown will have a 37 into town

I see no evidence that's what she thinks? Those living up Captain's Hill in Leixlip and in Dodsboro in Lucan are losing a direct service including peak Xpresso departures.