BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Stephen15

Qrt wrote: »

Does anybody have any idea where the notion of "28 seater buses" being used is coming from? I highly doubt the NTA have any plans to suddenly change half their fleet...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/some-major-bus-routes-will-be-worse-off-under-2bn-reform-plan-tds-warn-1.3569469?mode=amp

Does that article realise that the 45 was withdrawn 6 years ago. Also it has always run through as does the 145 and the 45a which they may have confused it with.

A2000

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So how do these people currently walk from their rooms to the bus, and what do they do when they get off the bus at their destination, just stand around and not walk anywhere?

300m is not a large distance by any stretch of the imagination, anyone currently capable of getting on a bus and going to and doing what they do now will be able to manage it. To suggest otherwise is just insulting to those people

The bus stops at the old folks complex. It then stops at tescos. They come out of tescos and get back on the bus outside. It brings them back to thier complex. Its all very simple. Minimal walking distance and manageable for most abilities. Done several times a week due to lmit of what can be carried on thier tripods. Some of these people are in thier 90s. The lack of respect and understanding for the elderly is shocking. We will all be old one day. As one woman said only then will people understand

Qrt

A2000 wrote: »

The bus stops at the old folks complex. It then stops at tescos. They come out of tescos and get back on the bus outside. It brings them back to thier complex. Its all very simple. Minimal walking distance and manageable for most abilities. Done several times a week due to lmit of what can be carried on thier tripods. Some of these people are in thier 90s. The lack of respect and understanding for the elderly is shocking. We will all be old one day. As one woman said only then will people understand

I'm sure there are plenty of old-people's complexes that will benefit from additional bus services too. I can think of a fair few anyway. The 79 is a ridiculous duplication as far as bus routes are concerned.

sharper

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The enthusiasts are all for this plan and are entirely dismissive of those who have concerns, who it may not suit or who will lose out, or who think that the rollout of the proposal hasn't been the best - FFS a dig was made about people's (TD's) literacy earlier!

Generally you expect a TD to be able to read a report, understand it and at least consult with someone who does before commenting publically on it. Why does your criticism of the media management by the NTA in rolling this out not also apply to elected representitives criticisng it?

It's entirely natural that people will have concerns. Change is always concerning and it requires a level of trust in the government to "do things right" that generally isn't owed to it but out of necessitity we have to afford it or else the country will move backwards.

I have been carefull reading what people are saying about the plan I'd break criticism down into a few categories:

1. Drop in frequency or loss of service to an area. This is where I strongly recommend people fill out the bus connects survey and get in touch with someone first before rubbishing the plan. At this point we have no idea whether these are parts of the plan or just an oversight.
   
2. Loss of direct service to the city centre. Unfortunately this is basically part of how the plan is meant to work and where people will have to apply the most trust in the core concept that interchanges can get you where you want to go faster and better. I have concerns about this too but I'm willing to give it a shot.
   
3. Loss of service to their local stop. Combined with the previous point this is where the "dial a bus" criticism comes in. Yes of course every single one of wants a bus service the stops outside our house and then takes the most direct route possible to where we want to go. If you already have this then you did well for a while but you can't expect the entire bus service to bend over backwards to keep it.

I use Dublin Bus every day. I'm losing my more direct service to the city centre and losing the service closest to my house to the city centre. I also gain in services that bring me places that were previously a total pain to get to via public transport though of course that's more of a future benefit since I don't go to those places much.

I'm willing to give the plan a chance because the status quo is unacceptable to me. If we had a different bus service and the current routes were the proposed ones there'd be war over those too. This isn't a cost cutting plan or a do it on the cheap plan, this is a genuine effort to build a decent bus service and I think everyone should be willing to engage it on those terms or else we will never have a decent bus service.

A2000

Qrt wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of old-people's complexes that will benefit from additional bus services too. I can think of a fair few anyway. The 79 is a ridiculous duplication as far as bus routes are concerned.

So take away from one and give to the other is progression? Theres a big difference in never had a service and have it taken away. Bus connects is about connection and faser journey times to the city. It takes no account of the people who use the servive or how they use it. If you have any elderly or disabled relatives or friends ask.them how they feel about it. Dont assume to know thier capabilities and what you think they should be able to do

MJohnston

A2000 wrote: »

So take away from one and give to the other is progression?

No, the plan can be more readily described as "make using the bus slightly more difficult for one person in order to make using the bus better for two or more people"

Bus connects is about connection and faser journey times to the city.

Not quite true, it's certainly about improving connections, but it's also about improving frequency and reliability of service. Faster journey times are a nice side effect of those goals.

It takes no account of the people who use the servive or how they use it.

This is just plainly untrue - there are pages upon pages of socio-economic studies included in the plan.

If you have any elderly or disabled relatives or friends ask.them how they feel about it. Dont assume to know thier capabilities and what you think they should be able to do

Both my neighbours are elderly, one is in his 90s. The nearest bus stop is currently 0.5km away from our houses. They are fine with that. Don't use elderly people as pawns when you're so willing to be condescending about their capabilities.

markpb

A2000 wrote: »

So take away from one and give to the other is progression? Theres a big difference in never had a service and have it taken away. Bus connects is about connection and faser journey times to the city. It takes no account of the people who use the servive or how they use it. If you have any elderly or disabled relatives or friends ask.them how they feel about it. Dont assume to know thier capabilities and what you think they should be able to do

It's not all about routes to the city - a big part of the plan is the additional orbital and local routes.

A2000

MJohnston wrote: »

No, the plan can be more readily described as "make using the bus slightly more difficult for one person in order to make using the bus better for two or more people"



Not quite true, it's certainly about improving connections, but it's also about improving frequency and reliability of service. Faster journey times are a nice side effect of those goals.



This is just plainly untrue - there are pages upon pages of socio-economic studies included in the plan.



Both my neighbours are elderly, one is in his 90s. The nearest bus stop is currently 0.5km away from our houses. They are fine with that. Don't use elderly people as pawns when you're so willing to be condescending about their capabilities.

Im delighted for your neighbours that the are able to travel far at thier age. There are many who cant. If people use a service and its then taken away then how do thry connect? The 79 is very busy ftom spiddal park down to Ballyfermot. Its equally busy from ballyfermot to lower ballyfermot. Both of these links will be cut so obviously the study did not go fsr enough.

Iif you read previous posts you would see i work as a home help and do meals on wheels. I have spoken at lenght with the elderly and they are worried. For thier future. For thier ability to get out and about.

Im speaking on tjier behalf and not for them or using them for my own gain as you put it without foundation.

To assume is to make an ass out of you and me.

If people just read posts and reaf them properly it would cut down on repetition.

Ageism is alive and well. They dont matter.

A2000

markpb wrote: »

It's not all about routes to the city - a big part of the plan is the additional orbital and local routes.

In the case in.point which is the 79 ot is.

MJohnston

A2000 wrote: »

Im delighted for your neighbours that the are able to travel far at thier age. There are many who cant. If people use a service and its then taken away then how do thry connect? The 79 is very busy ftom spiddal park down to Ballyfermot. Its equally busy from ballyfermot to lower ballyfermot. Both of these links will be cut so obviously the study did not go fsr enough.

You are very much incorrect about both links being cut. Here's a before:



And an after:



So as you can see, the only area to lose service will be the awkward Decies Road route. The furthest that anyone will have to walk is from Landen Road to Ballyfermot Road, which is an extra 200m walk. Spiddal Park will retain a connection thanks to the G1 spinal route.

The other important thing to note is that this area has a current bus service frequency of about 10-15 minutes, whereas under BusConnects the Ballyfermot area will have access to the G spine operating at a 6-7.5 minute frequency in addition to the S4 spinal route which has a 10-15 minutes frequency. That's an excellent improvement for the vast majority of people living in Ballyfermot, at the possible expense of a couple dozen homes along the Landen Road (who only have to walk an extra 200m).

Slutmonkey57b

A2000 wrote: »

Im delighted for your neighbours that the are able to travel far at thier age. There are many who cant. If people use a service and its then taken away then how do thry connect? The 79 is very busy ftom spiddal park down to Ballyfermot. Its equally busy from ballyfermot to lower ballyfermot. Both of these links will be cut so obviously the study did not go fsr enough.

Iif you read previous posts you would see i work as a home help and do meals on wheels. I have spoken at lenght with the elderly and they are worried. For thier future. For thier ability to get out and about.

Im speaking on tjier behalf and not for them or using them for my own gain as you put it without foundation.

To assume is to make an ass out of you and me.

If people just read posts and reaf them properly it would cut down on repetition.

Ageism is alive and well. They dont matter.

Wow, there are a lot of nonsense points in here. Let's break them down again.

1. "The people I directly interact with represent 100% of the bus using population"

They don't. Right now, for every person you directly interact with, there are X people who cannot use the current service at all. As the city grows, X is only going to get bigger. That's not acceptable, because the city as a whole will grind to a halt. Your elderly friends will not be able to do their shopping if the Tesco staff cannot get to work.

2. "The people I directly interact with represent 100% of the elderly population".

They don't. "People in their 90's who are mobile and strong enough to get around on a Zimmer, get on a bus, walk round a shop, carry their own shopping, and get back again, but can't walk an extra 300 metres, and who live on a street with not one, but two old folks' homes in close proximity which are equidistant from the current bus stop" is, I think you can see, a pretty small target group. Elderly people, like the rest of the population, fall into groups like "don't need a Zimmer at all", "are totally housebound and rely on people (often bus users themselves) to look after them", "currently have no bus service at all", "have a bus service which is no use due to lack of frequency", "have a bus service which doesn't go anywhere useful", or "have a bus service to somewhere useful but would also like a bus service which lets them go somewhere else for a change of routine, or to allow family members to get to them and visit more easily".

3. "The people I directly interact with were totally ignored deliberately and callously"

"There are a million stories in the naked city". No, not everyone was consulted. I certainly wasn't. But I am being consulted now. The plan is based on data about actual bus journeys. You and they can have your say now, just like everyone else.

4. "The people I directly interact with aren't happy therefore the entire plan should be scrapped".

OR, you could email the bus connects planner, tell them what street, route, and destination you're talking about, and ask them a few questions. The amount of time you've spent ranting on here, you'd have got a response by now. What street, route, and destination are you taking about, anyway?

5. "The people I directly interact with should be able to retain their bus route"

The planners have *already said* this isn't fixed in stone and some changes are inevitable. So this bus route, whichever one you're taking about, could be retained in some form.

What they have said is that endless nimbyism/self interested complaining will scupper the plan as, in keeping with any change, some people will benefit and some people will lose out. If more people benefit than lose out then it's a good plan.

It looks like a good plan.

SG317

I have to say i find it rather ironic that people on this thread call themselves the silent majority, when most people on this thread are extremely for this plan and there are some people that seem to try and shut down anyone who raises the slightest concern. I think a bit of perespective from some people would be appreciated.

So many keep going on about the map and everything being available on the Bus Connects website. Which is mostly true, however the report is 90 pages long, most people are not going to read through a 90 page document realistically. The report does contain repetition as-well, plus a few errors. Also since some people complain that people are not reading the report, Can someone tell me then why Rolestown, Toberberr, St. Margaret's, Glencullen, Kilgarron and Shop River are losing their only bus service and are getting no replacement. I have read the report and there is not a mention about these areas, as if under the current network they are not served. I think it is insulting to people in these areas, who under this plan will have their only bus service stripped from them and without even an explanation or reference in the report. So I have read the report and not once were these areas mentioned. Turns out this glorious report that some people keep praising doesn't have all the information, at the end of the day.

I'm not going to lie, there is certainly misinterpretations about the plan spreading, however at the end of the day I have to say I am not particularly fond of Jarret Walker's sales techniques. He seems to think he is the commuters saviour with his proposed network and that we should all be greatful for his paid service. All he seems to do is keep going on about how people aren't reading the legend properly. Certainly, there are positives to the plan, but there are negatives as-well.

dfx-

cgcsb wrote: »

first few days will need NTA staff in high vis vests at important stops directing the sheeple around

Can you imagine the number of people that would need and the information they would need to know and people skills they would need.

It's not a job for a trawl of available Summer-job recruitment agency folks.

Slutmonkey57b

SG317 wrote: »

Also since some people complain that people are not reading the report, Can someone tell me then why Rolestown, Toberberr, St. Margaret's, Glencullen, Kilgarron and Shop River are losing their only bus service and are getting no replacement. I have read the report and there is not a mention about these areas, as if under the current network they are not served. I think it is insulting to people in these areas, who under this plan will have their only bus service stripped from them and without even an explanation or reference in the report. So I have read the report and not once were these areas mentioned. Turns out this glorious report that some people keep praising doesn't have all the information, at the end of the day.

Insulting???

Ok, let's go back to numbers. How many streets are there in Dublin, and surrounding commuter towns? Is every single one mentioned in the report? No. Is every single existing route (with variations) mentioned in the report? No. Why? The report would be hundreds of thousands of pages long and would never have been completed.

The team looked at the data and came up with a plan. They're now *inviting people to discuss the plan*. All they're asking is that people make a small effort to read the plan before commenting as they (and everyone with an ounce of common sense) know that 99% of the questions they'll get will be answered by the document plus, maybe, a few minutes of open minded thinking. How is that insulting?

They've got an email address. Ask them!

MJohnston

SG317 wrote: »

I have to say i find it rather ironic that people on this thread call themselves the silent majority, when most people on this thread are extremely for this plan and there are some people that seem to try and shut down anyone who raises the slightest concern. I think a bit of perespective from some people would be appreciated.

So many keep going on about the map and everything being available on the Bus Connects website. Which is mostly true, however the report is 90 pages long, most people are not going to read through a 90 page document realistically. The report does contain repetition as-well, plus a few errors. Also since some people complain that people are not reading the report, Can someone tell me then why Rolestown, Toberberr, St. Margaret's, Glencullen, Kilgarron and Shop River are losing their only bus service and are getting no replacement. I have read the report and there is not a mention about these areas, as if under the current network they are not served. I think it is insulting to people in these areas, who under this plan will have their only bus service stripped from them and without even an explanation or reference in the report. So I have read the report and not once were these areas mentioned. Turns out this glorious report that some people keep praising doesn't have all the information, at the end of the day.

I'm not going to lie, there is certainly misinterpretations about the plan spreading, however at the end of the day I have to say I am not particularly fond of Jarret Walker's sales techniques. He seems to think he is the commuters saviour with his proposed network and that we should all be greatful for his paid service. All he seems to do is keep going on about how people aren't reading the legend properly. Certainly, there are positives to the plan, but there are negatives as-well.

Have you tried asking Jarrett Walker about these areas?

cgcsb

A2000 wrote: »

If you cant get to the stop then you have lost the service. Particularly as the change is senseless. As i said i work with these people and its amazing what they can carry on a tripod. Because they have to. Have been chatting about these posts with them todsy and they said its obvious that nobody understands how important the bus in it current form is to them in thier everyday life. Or what it means to be elderly. 300 meters may as well be 300 miles for some.

Why don't you make a submission to the NTA? perhaps there may be some accommodation reached.

SG317

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Ok, let's go back to numbers. How many streets are there in Dublin, and surrounding commuter towns? Is every single one mentioned in the report? No. Is every single existing route (with variations) mentioned in the report? No. Why? The report would be hundreds of thousands of pages long and would never have been completed.

Actually, all the areas I listed served by the 40B, 41B, 44B and 185 are not just streets, but a vast area of the routes. In fact those routes except the 185 primarily exist to serve those areas. Having mentioned those areas would certainly not have added more than two pages in the report. Most areas have been mentioned in the report, however these 6 areas weren't. Might have something to do with them losing a bus service. In fact you'll find that the only areas not mentioned are the ones losing a bus service, nothing to do with adding pages to report, lets not forget that there are bits in the report that actually overlap each other. Simply put it they didn't mention it because they knew it would get backlash.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

The team looked at the data and came up with a plan. They're now *inviting people to discuss the plan*. All they're asking is that people make a small effort to read the plan before commenting as they (and everyone with an ounce of common sense) know that 99% of the questions they'll get will be answered by the document plus, maybe, a few minutes of open minded thinking. How is that insulting?

I think it is only reasonable that if they are getting paid to improve our transport system, using taxpayers money. That they mention every area that will be affected. Especially if they then complain people are not reading the report, but then when you do read it, you find that some areas are not even mentioned.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

They've got an email address. Ask them!

I did contact them, while they did take a while to answer, they basically said that it's true that those areas will lose a bus service and that the NTA is aware, and is looking at possible Dublin Bus services for those areas. Basically nothing one could not have guessed anyway.

cgcsb

SG317 wrote: »

I have to say i find it rather ironic that people on this thread call themselves the silent majority, when most people on this thread are extremely for this plan and there are some people that seem to try and shut down anyone who raises the slightest concern. I think a bit of perespective from some people would be appreciated.

So many keep going on about the map and everything being available on the Bus Connects website. Which is mostly true, however the report is 90 pages long, most people are not going to read through a 90 page document realistically. The report does contain repetition as-well, plus a few errors. Also since some people complain that people are not reading the report, Can someone tell me then why Rolestown, Toberberr, St. Margaret's, Glencullen, Kilgarron and Shop River are losing their only bus service and are getting no replacement. I have read the report and there is not a mention about these areas, as if under the current network they are not served. I think it is insulting to people in these areas, who under this plan will have their only bus service stripped from them and without even an explanation or reference in the report. So I have read the report and not once were these areas mentioned. Turns out this glorious report that some people keep praising doesn't have all the information, at the end of the day.

I'm not going to lie, there is certainly misinterpretations about the plan spreading, however at the end of the day I have to say I am not particularly fond of Jarret Walker's sales techniques. He seems to think he is the commuters saviour with his proposed network and that we should all be greatful for his paid service. All he seems to do is keep going on about how people aren't reading the legend properly. Certainly, there are positives to the plan, but there are negatives as-well.

I'm reliably informed that a company that operate an 'on demand' bus service are in talks with the NTA. They already operate in some remote Barcelona suburb that only had an hourly bus, which was mostly empty. This is now being replaced with an on-demand minibus service which has increased ridership almost 3 fold. It'll be a long time coming though. I would suggest you make a submission.

cgcsb

dfx- wrote: »

Can you imagine the number of people that would need and the information they would need to know and people skills they would need.

It's not a job for a trawl of available Summer-job recruitment agency folks.

not really. Each hi-vis person need only know the routes at the interchange they are manning. They'll be equipped with maps if they are not sure.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

not really. Each hi-vis person need only know the routes at the interchange they are manning. They'll be equipped with maps if they are not sure.

Indeed imagine ask a current DB employee how to get somewhere

"well you get a bus number's x/y/z to random stop then you walk to random street then look for bus numbers a/b/v repeat as required"

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm reliably informed that a company that operate an 'on demand' bus service are in talks with the NTA. They already operate in some remote Barcelona suburb that only had an hourly bus, which was mostly empty. This is now being replaced with an on-demand minibus service which has increased ridership almost 3 fold. It'll be a long time coming though. I would suggest you make a submission.

The one part about Uber that I wish had been able to launch in Ireland is UberPOOL. I would be curious as to whether MyTaxi ever progressed their plans for that kind of taxi pooling service.

Stephen15

SG317 wrote: »

Actually, all the areas I listed served by the 40B, 41B, 44B and 185 are not just streets, but a vast area of the routes. In fact those routes except the 185 primarily exist to serve those areas. Having mentioned those areas would certainly not have added more than two pages in the report. Most areas have been mentioned in the report, however these 6 areas weren't. Might have something to do with them losing a bus service. In fact you'll find that the only areas not mentioned are the ones losing a bus service, nothing to do with adding pages to report, lets not forget that there are bits in the report that actually overlap each other. Simply put it they didn't mention it because they knew it would get backlash.

The report only mentions bus routes with a frequency of hourly or better. It also has peak routes listed however I doubt those routes are gone completely.

A2000

cgcsb wrote: »

Why don't you make a submission to the NTA? perhaps there may be some accommodation reached.

Every week the elderly have a session around anything that concerns them like doctors hospitals medication. This week was sround the bus connects proposal. Believe me several strongly worded submissions will be going to the nta. They have requested that ALONE also come on board to support them. Theres nothing like a riled up pensioner to get things done. The next session will see invitations go.out to local representatives to protest the proposals. Something similar is hapening in palmerstown as the 18 will go severing the link to ballyfermot. Hopefully all groups affected will have thier say but more importantly be heard

Slutmonkey57b

SG317 wrote: »

I did contact them, while they did take a while to answer, they basically said that it's true that those areas will lose a bus service and that the NTA is aware, and is looking at possible Dublin Bus services for those areas. Basically nothing one could not have guessed anyway.

So the upshot of their horrifically insulting attitude is that they were already aware of the lost service, were already considering alternatives, and asked for your feedback during an open consultation process, where they answered you, personally, out of over a million people who will be affected by the plans?

What a bunch of snooty elitists. How dare they. You pay their wages!

A2000

MJohnston wrote: »

You are very much incorrect about both links being cut. Here's a before:



And an after:



So as you can see, the only area to lose service will be the awkward Decies Road route. The furthest that anyone will have to walk is from Landen Road to Ballyfermot Road, which is an extra 200m walk. Spiddal Park will retain a connection thanks to the G1 spinal route.

The other important thing to note is that this area has a current bus service frequency of about 10-15 minutes, whereas under BusConnects the Ballyfermot area will have access to the G spine operating at a 6-7.5 minute frequency in addition to the S4 spinal route which has a 10-15 minutes frequency. That's an excellent improvement for the vast majority of people living in Ballyfermot, at the possible expense of a couple dozen homes along the Landen Road (who only have to walk an extra 200m).

The G1 does not go to spiddal park. It goes to park west as the 79a does now. Thats quite clear on the map. Is anyone reading this plan properly? Your statement regarding just 200 meters is from your prospective and not those who use the bus. If these cuts go ahead then a local service should be retained as people dont need to drag shopping 200 meters.it looks like spiddal park and decies are losing service as th g1 will duplicate the 40 from ballyfermot making it slower from.inchicoe to town. It currently uses a bus lane from inchicore st johns road and north quays. The change cuts the busier part of the route in order to duplicate the area already served. People might accept it if it made sense.

Slutmonkey57b

A2000 wrote: »

Every week the elderly have a session around anything that concerns them like doctors hospitals medication. This week was sround the bus connects proposal. Believe me several strongly worded submissions will be going to the nta. They have requested that ALONE also come on board to support them. Theres nothing like a riled up pensioner to get things done. The next session will see invitations go.out to local representatives to protest the proposals. Something similar is hapening in palmerstown as the 18 will go severing the link to ballyfermot. Hopefully all groups affected will have thier say but more importantly be heard

Once again, you're behaving as though nobody was listening to them in the first place. Instead of actually engaging with the plan, it's all aggressive and confrontational. "We demand this, we demand that". How about a challenge? What if someone found another group of identical pensioners who were going to *gain* a bus service out of this proposal? Which group of pensioners is "more deserving"? You're behaving as though the whole thing is a binary all or nothing setup.

You said they had a dial-A-taxi service which was removed. What happened with that? Are the nta responsible for that too? Did Jarrett Walker cancel that?

Stephen15

Interesting read Wellington in NZ is only getting it's new network now which was first proposed by Jarett in 2011

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105050384/wellingtons-new-bus-network-promises-to-be-simpler-and-more-reliable

A2000

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Once again, you're behaving as though nobody was listening to them in the first place. Instead of actually engaging with the plan, it's all aggressive and confrontational. "We demand this, we demand that". How about a challenge? What if someone found another group of identical pensioners who were going to *gain* a bus service out of this proposal? Which group of pensioners is "more deserving"? You're behaving as though the whole thing is a binary all or nothing setup.

You said they had a dial-A-taxi service which was removed. What happened with that? Are the nta responsible for that too? Did Jarrett Walker cancel that?

Foolish and over the top. Where is the word demand used anywhere? As the nta did not run the taxi service they could not cancel it. I doubt if jaret walker was informed of its inception and cancellation. Wjy would he? Nowhere does it state that anyone is opposed to the plan in general. Its a group.of people worried about proposals for ONE route that will affect thier independence and ability to get around. They are entitled to thier say. Your post is aggressive and confrontational and shows a lack.of understanding of whst we are discussing. And no i dont blame the nta or jarrett walker for that either. The network direct plan for 27b/79 was to.include spiddal park. People are entitled to enquire as to why that has changed.

_Kaiser_

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Once again, you're behaving as though nobody was listening to them in the first place. Instead of actually engaging with the plan, it's all aggressive and confrontational. "We demand this, we demand that". How about a challenge? What if someone found another group of identical pensioners who were going to *gain* a bus service out of this proposal? Which group of pensioners is "more deserving"? You're behaving as though the whole thing is a binary all or nothing setup.

You said they had a dial-A-taxi service which was removed. What happened with that? Are the nta responsible for that too? Did Jarrett Walker cancel that?

In all honesty, it's your attitude that is "aggressive and confrontational" in the last number of posts you've made.

You like and are all for this plan.. grand! But, as I've pointed out earlier, taking the approach that you (and others here) are will only harden resistance and apathy (ditto the RTFM responses from Jarret - the apparent wonderchild of public transport)

They need to be selling the benefits and making it very clear how people's specific existing routes or journeys will be affected. The route planner that someone suggested should have been a given with comparative estimates of current vs proposed journey times and cost.

Only then will people see any benefits. They aren't gonna read through multiple PDFs, squint at legends on maps and trawl through social media for the explanations.

A2000

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

In all honesty, it's your attitude that is "aggressive and confrontational" in the last number of posts you've made.

You like and are all for this plan.. grand! But, as I've pointed out earlier, taking the approach that you (and others here) are will only harden resistance and apathy (ditto the RTFM responses from Jarret - the apparent wonderchild of public transport)

They need to be selling the benefits and making it very clear how people's specific existing routes or journeys will be affected. The route planner that someone suggested should have been a given with comparative estimates of current vs proposed journey times and cost.

Only then will people see any benefits. They aren't gonna read through multiple PDFs, squint at legends on maps and trawl through social media for the explanations.[/QUOT

the changes wont affect me personally. Im expressing the views of people who dont use social media and are worried as to how this will affect them. They are entitle to that. One person said they may as well take her legs for all the use they will be to her if she loses the bus. Her only link to the locality. Try seeing it from thier perspective. They have the right to enquire and the right to reply same as anyone else. Lets see how it plays out. The nta wont keep the service if its not in the public interest. We will all be elderly some day